Support characters in AP limited campaigns

[stan da ork]

This occurred to me while reading the recent Characteristics v. Aid thread. Do people who use campaign AP caps allow players to play support characters, and more specifically, characters that can increase other character's powers/characteristics through Aid, Succor, UBO, etc.?

 

In a standard 60 AP limit campaign, the team brick probably has a 60 STR. Then Aid boy, with his 3d6 Aid with reduced fade rate and an increased maximum, rolls in and starts pumping the brick's STR, by about 10 points per use of Aid, until he hits his maximum (say 40). Now the brick has 100 STR for at least 5 Turns (1 Minute), and proceeds to wail the hell out of the opposition, who was built for a 60 AP campaign. The same could be applied to the team's blaster (Aid EB or RKA) or martial artist (Aid STR or DEX).

 

It seems to me that this type of character could become extremely disruptive in a game with AP limits. Opposition must be built assuming Aid Boy will use his Aid, but you have to be careful or the opposition will be too powerful, and will win before Aid Boy gets to buff everyone. Yet it also seems wrong to just ban these type of support characters from the game.

 

So how do people handle it? Limit people's powers based on the powers of the rest of the team (so if Aid Boy can add 40 STR, maybe the brick can only buy 40 STR, instead of 60)? Disallow the character? Just don't use AP caps? What works, what doesn't?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

I have not real problem with it because "Aid Boy" type characters are, well boring. Aid gets expensive pretty quickly if you want a Delayed Rate of Return and Succor gets expensive END wise. UBO, as an advantage, quickly hits AP caps. I think having an AID power or two on a character is one thing, but having that as the concept is going to be its own drawback. The character itself is going to have little combat potential.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

I might not like AID Boy aiding the bricks STR, but other stats might make for some nice situations.

 

But like SS - I find pure Support Characters kind of boring, and I reallydon't find small boosts that disruptive.

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

If a player wishes to play a dedicated support character, I'd try to steer him toward force fields, healing, telepathy, etc. If Aid Boy came to play, I'd probably send him to the Legion of Substitute Champions.

[Gary]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

Anybody with a multipower or VPP can be Aid Boy. And he can still fight effectively even while supporting others.

[stan da ork]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

Three things:

 

1) Some people like playing the Aid Boy type of character. I wouldn't write off the problem just because most people wouldn't want to use it. And Aid Boy can easily have some other utility powers to make him have other things to do once he has finished Aiding people, like Drains or NNDs (small Drains with DRR can be devastating).

 

2) Aid 3d6, +20 Maximum Effect, Variable Effect (+1/4), DRR (1 Minute, +1/4) (60 AP). This Aid can add up to 38 Points to multiple Characteristics/Powers and falls within limits. Or even better, put the following in a Multipower: Aid 4d6, +16 Maximum Effect, DRR (1 Minute, +1/4) (60 AP). Make each slot Aid a different Characteristic or Power. Now you can add 40 points to many Characteristics/Powers. Looks pretty effective to me.

 

3) I think a character than can add 8d6 to the brick's punch or the blaster's EB, or 13 to anyone's DEX (that 4 CV's), or 20 to someone's PD or ED has a ton of combat potential. But maybe that's just me?

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

2) Aid 3d6, +20 Maximum Effect, Variable Effect (+1/4), DRR (1 Minute, +1/4) (60 AP). This Aid can add up to 38 Points to multiple Characteristics/Powers and falls within limits. Or even better, put the following in a Multipower: Aid 4d6, +16 Maximum Effect, DRR (1 Minute, +1/4) (60 AP). Make each slot Aid a different Characteristic or Power. Now you can add 40 points to many Characteristics/Powers. Looks pretty effective to me.

With the first power he is putting in 3d6 per Phase which is an average of 10-11 points. It will take him four uses to get to Maximum effect. A whole lot can change in four phases of a game. Also Aid is No Range which means he has to be right next to the target.

 

3) I think a character than can add 8d6 to the brick's punch or the blaster's EB, or 13 to anyone's DEX (that 4 CV's), or 20 to someone's PD or ED has a ton of combat potential. But maybe that's just me?

Connected to my response above.

 

Bob the Villain is struck by Rick Brick. Aidboy comes up and improves Rick Brick's STR. Bob the Villain is hit again and it feels stronger. As Aidboy is standing right beside Rick Brick doing something he puts two and two together. Bob the Villain attacks Rick the Brick with his Double Knockback attack. Now Aidboy is right beside Bob the Villain and Rick the Brick is more than a full phase's movement away. Aidboy is in for some trouble.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

I think "Aidboy" can often be taken care of story-wise.

 

He is also often "Targetboy", as mentioned by supersquirrel.

 

He isn't a likely PC character, and if he is an NPC you control him. Players who build support style characters usually try to give the characters some abilities in combat. They might drop you a few extra points of STR so you temporarily go above the campaign AP limit, but they aren't going to sit there for 4 phases doing nothing but help you, they are going to attack, defend, etc.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

I think players who are so interested in "gaming the system" that they'd deliberately assemble a team designed to circumvent the campaign guidelines would be happier just playing HeroClix or a wargame, instead of pretending they want to roleplay.

[stan da ork]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

Aid Boy's got Defenses, just like everyone else. He can take a hit or two without curling up and dying. Plus Aid Boy can still have some other powers as well. So Rick Brick goes flying, and Aid Boy hits Bob the Villian with his 6d6 DEX Drain (from his Drain Multipower), dropping Bob's DEX by 7 (and consequently, his OCV by 2), making it harder for Bob to hit him while Rick charges back into the fray.

 

I think you are assuming that Aid Boy has nothing but Aid, but that is far from true. An Aid Multipower like I described previously can affect many power and come in at under 100 points total, leaving lots of room for other stuff.

 

I may just try statting up Aid Boy later on and posting him to show what I mean better.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

I think players who are so interested in "gaming the system" that they'd deliberately assemble a team designed to circumvent the campaign guidelines would be happier just playing HeroClix or a wargame' date=' instead of pretending they want to roleplay. [/quote']

Well said - I owe you rep for that (Have to spread it around some..)

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

Aid Boy's got Defenses, just like everyone else. He can take a hit or two without curling up and dying. Plus Aid Boy can still have some other powers as well. So Rick Brick goes flying, and Aid Boy hits Bob the Villian with his 6d6 DEX Drain (from his Drain Multipower), dropping Bob's DEX by 7 (and consequently, his OCV by 2), making it harder for Bob to hit him while Rick charges back into the fray.

 

I think you are assuming that Aid Boy has nothing but Aid, but that is far from true. An Aid Multipower like I described previously can affect many power and come in at under 100 points total, leaving lots of room for other stuff.

 

I may just try statting up Aid Boy later on and posting him to show what I mean better.

I feel like we are in the case of a moving goalpost here. Based on everything you have described, you are look at a 78 points for someone who can Aid a limited range of powers (for example, STR and BODY) and Aid one characteristic. Of course he may have more than one of these powers in which case add another 6 points. Then add in the mentioned Drain.

 

Aid Boy:

60 pt. Multipower

Aid #1) 6 pts

Aid #2) 6 pts

Drain) 6 pts

Total Cost: 78 points

 

Now... because we are being hypothetical here. Aidboy decides to Drain Bob the Villain only to discover:

 

Power Defense: 10 Points

 

And Bob the Villain, annoyed at Bob for draining some of his DEX (which will mostly wear off in 1 turn) decides to use his 8d6 EB, Armor Piercing attack. There is no range penalty as Drain is a No Range attack putting Aidboy right next to him. Aidboy has been knocked out and now Bob the Villain just needs to act defensively until the effects where off.

 

My point is not that Adjustment Powers being a character concept are bad. My point is that this will easily balance itself out in the game. Villains are not going to struggle with a heavy hitter that is gradually getting better. They are going to cut off the power supply of the heavy hitter and THEN focus on him.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

Aren't the 'Support Characters' that are being discussed really more of an artificial creation of City of Heroes (and their incarnation there just a reflection of the Healer/Cleric from that other online crack game)? Outside of the fantasy genre, how often does this kind of character get included in the player group?

 

HM

[stan da ork]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

Just a few things:

 

1) Creating a support character is in no way "gaming the system." It is a perfectly valid concept for a character. A support character is no more "gaming the system" than a Brick buying a high STR because STR is very effcient.

 

2) Support characters were not created by City of Heroes, or any other online game. They have existed in many tabletop RPGs for decades. Just because they aren't very prevalent in some genres doesn't mean the character is invalid.

 

3) The main argument people have that there isn't a problem with a character like this is because he is a target. But he is no more a target than any other threat on the battlefield. Also, people seem to think that a support character has to be easy to take down, saying he will go down in one shot once the villians turn their attention to him. Not true. The support character can have defenses just as strong as anyone else on the team.

[concord]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

I have a soft AP Cap on the Wardens Campaign... the latest version of the campaign has a character named Boost who is a "support" character...

 

Here is his character sheet:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=730535&postcount=7

 

The campaign has been on hiatus... moving to a new place, broken hand (yep, the one I write with), holidays and all that real life jazz getting in the way...

 

I just sent out the call for a restart after the first of the year... Unfortunately, I haven't heard back from his player yet... I hope he comes back as a PC... I don't think I could do him justice as an NPC...

[OddHat]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

In the end, there has to be trust between the GM and the players for a role playing campaign to work. If the GM does not think that aid or succor work in the kinds of stories he wants to tell, he needs to tell that to players straight out. He is under no obligation to accept any power or build that he doesn't think will work in his campaign. Players must be willing to accept that not all powers work in all campaigns. If the GM does accept a build that turns out to be unbalancing, he needs to talk that over with the player and come to an agreement.

 

Player vs GM conflict will kill the joy of any campaign. If it develops, and the player and GM can't talk it out, it's best for the player to leave the game.

 

Mechanics mean nothing; group dynamics are the life and death of campaigns.

 

As to the specifics of the original question, I don't use hard active point caps, and I don't mind if a player decides his character is going to be Super Self Help Guru, with a "Great Advice" 5d6 Aid to any Characteristic One At a Time as his main power. He can't make his fellow players "too powerful"; as the GM, I have unlimited resources, unlimited NPCs, and full control of the environment. Countering Super Self Help Guru, if I want him countered, just means adding a few more NPCs or a few points to the bad guy to get the combat back to the challenge level I was aiming for.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

3) The main argument people have that there isn't a problem with a character like this is because he is a target. But he is no more a target than any other threat on the battlefield. Also' date=' people seem to think that a support character has to be easy to take down, saying he will go down in one shot once the villians turn their attention to him. Not true. The support character can have defenses just as strong as anyone else on the team.[/quote']Yes he can and it was why I used an 8d6 AP example above. (Average roll: 28 STUN before defenses which is usually enough for STUNNING)

 

Characters balance each other out. You can have a 60 PD/60 ED support character but it means he is going to have drawbacks somewhere else. Maybe you have one that is balanced across the board. That just means that while balanced, he won't be effective against what an enemy is particularly good at.

 

In my first example, it could just be that the villain realizes the weakness of the hero is he has to touch his target. Then it is boost up into flight mode and rely on knockback if he gets close.

 

Again, not saying that Support Guy is useless. I'm saying the system balances itself out. The brick naturally has high PD due to his STR. So he is already well defended from attacks. Support guy has to spend extra. All in all, it is completely up to character concept. Personally, I'd rather do a support guy with a VPP. The AP cap would limit the powers greatly. I'd also go with the quick and dirty high dice, high fade AIDs unless we needed something that stuck for a while. But that is just me.

[stan da ork]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

Okay, point taken. Personally, I think support characters should be perfectly allowable and viable in all genres (especially supers), and unless there is a really hard AP cap in the campaign, I think they can be allowed to shine with their chosen role without breaking the game, as Super Squirrel and OddHat have pointed out.

[caris]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

I have a soft AP Cap on the Wardens Campaign... the latest version of the campaign has a character named Boost who is a "support" character...

 

Here is his character sheet:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=730535&postcount=7

 

The campaign has been on hiatus... moving to a new place, broken hand (yep, the one I write with), holidays and all that real life jazz getting in the way...

 

I just sent out the call for a restart after the first of the year... Unfortunately, I haven't heard back from his player yet... I hope he comes back as a PC... I don't think I could do him justice as an NPC...

 

Concord - I just sent the e-mail. It sort of explains what is going on.

 

I'm the player of Boost, but please call him Mark. Boost is just his code name that he uses in the field, like a call sign.

 

Mark does reflect some common design elements for me, but "support" isn't really one of them. I've played support characters in other games, but it isn't a roll I am any more fond of than any other. Having said that. I did factor in the ability for Adjustment Powers to cause problems into my design. I planned from the beginning to keep the Adjustment Powers on the low side of the Active Point game. In many ways they were meant mainly to be a justification for his physical stats and for them to keep growing. Boost is deliberately designed as a novice hero to help with that. In time I plan on enhancing his combat abilities. Probably moving him into a Captain America direction in terms of enhanced physiology combined with combat training to move him into something a tad more combat efficient. (Concord, you did see the 30 STR and Martial Arts package coming from my notes, yes?)

 

One other thing is that Concord made it very clear from the begginning that Mark's presence meant that I was bringing "Adjustment Power fun" (my term not his) to the campaign. Basically, because I introduced a character with Adjustment Powers we could expect opposition with Adjustment Powers and Power Defense. I'm fully expecting entire combats where Mark is going to be running around just trying to counter act the effects of some other Adjustment Power user.

 

As for how "fun" a support character is depends largely on the game. Any game that is extremely combat heavey could be pretty boring for a character like Mark, who really shouldn't be in there mixing things up. On the other hand if the game has plenty of opportunities for role-play there is still opportunities for a player to enjoy his character.

[Zed-F]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

I think players who are so interested in "gaming the system" that they'd deliberately assemble a team designed to circumvent the campaign guidelines would be happier just playing HeroClix or a wargame' date=' instead of pretending they want to roleplay. [/quote']

Hmph. Some people like both wargames and actual roleplaying, you know. What's wrong with a mix?

 

Having said that, it helps a lot if the GM is onboard with that sort of game...

[Zed-F]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

As far as support characters go, if the GM is up for it, I'm happy to run them. I ran one in a fantasy campaign and I've just ported her to a Dark Champions game. 'Course she looks a bit different at 200+100 than she did at 25+25. But she's a novice heroine and isn't even using half of her CP yet anyway. I also have a supermage in another game whose primary offensive framework (a VPP) can only contain adjustment powers, and while that often means Suppress or Drain, it has occasionally meant Succor or Healing as well.

[zornwil]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

Aren't the 'Support Characters' that are being discussed really more of an artificial creation of City of Heroes (and their incarnation there just a reflection of the Healer/Cleric from that other online crack game)? Outside of the fantasy genre, how often does this kind of character get included in the player group?

 

HM

I think as sidekicks and followers it's somewhat common, I have seen it. And I take personal exception to the comment that these characters are boring or uninteresting. In 2 groups I have found them to be often rather interesting, as has the group. Then again, we don't use them often, and even if they are mentioned every session, it's usually just a bit role.

 

PS - unless you're referring to pure "buff" characters, just Aid alone, in which case I agree, haven't really seen it much. I think I've seen a PC or two like that but don't recall them being an issue, more just team members with their own abilities, and usually not limited to something so simplistic.

[zornwil]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

In the end, there has to be trust between the GM and the players for a role playing campaign to work. If the GM does not think that aid or succor work in the kinds of stories he wants to tell, he needs to tell that to players straight out. He is under no obligation to accept any power or build that he doesn't think will work in his campaign. Players must be willing to accept that not all powers work in all campaigns. If the GM does accept a build that turns out to be unbalancing, he needs to talk that over with the player and come to an agreement.

 

Player vs GM conflict will kill the joy of any campaign. If it develops, and the player and GM can't talk it out, it's best for the player to leave the game.

 

Mechanics mean nothing; group dynamics are the life and death of campaigns.

 

As to the specifics of the original question, I don't use hard active point caps, and I don't mind if a player decides his character is going to be Super Self Help Guru, with a "Great Advice" 5d6 Aid to any Characteristic One At a Time as his main power. He can't make his fellow players "too powerful"; as the GM, I have unlimited resources, unlimited NPCs, and full control of the environment. Countering Super Self Help Guru, if I want him countered, just means adding a few more NPCs or a few points to the bad guy to get the combat back to the challenge level I was aiming for.

I just happened back to this - I should have repped you for this post, though it's not as if the other wasn't also repworthy. Very well said.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

I have a villain team I use occasionally. Reasonably average but they have member called Booster who can up their characteristics. Makes them very nasty.

 

Most combats are reasonably finely balanced. Even adding 3 DEX (9 points or 3 standard dice) to each member of a team increases all their OCV and DCV valuses by 1, which is often enough to make them overwhelming in and of itself.

 

Increasing strength or damaging powers is even more effective: assuming that an average attack will put some damage through, then ALL of any boost to that attack will be added damage, in effect the same as NND, becasue all defences will already have been taken care of. So boosting a team's attack powers by 3d6 (say) means they will ALL be doing +9 (standard) damage THROUGH defences, that is probably enough to cause a lot more stun results and certainly to whittle STUN down a lot quicker.

 

Support characters are not, IMO, 'boring' to play. If what you are after is individual glory then they are not going to be your cup of tea, but if what you are more interested in is team victory then they are likely to be the most well respected and cherished member.

 

Personally I think that a lot of RPGs, and Hero is one of them, does little to really foster a team mentality, and so you tend to get a seies of grandstand one on one combats, which can make a session go very slowly. Moreover it then makes team members almost interchangeable. Looking for synergy is something I think we rarely do, building most characters as 'all rounders'. A well organised villain or hero team, with appropriate support characters, will go through the opposition much faster and more efficiently. May not look quite so flash, but boy howdy is it effective.

[tesuji]

Re: Support characters in AP limited campaigns

 

Ok focusing more on the original question and less on the other stuff...

 

When i use a DC limit, or a DEf limit or what have you, this INCLUDES any long term that can apply in the group. if the limit is 12d6 and someone tries to aid the brick's strength above 60, then i allow it but i do not count the extra strength above 60 for DC purposes. if the player wants a rationale, i tend to babble for a few seconds about toughness of the hands and such before having a villain attack him. the added strength is still there for lifting, for jumping, and so forth but not for the limited trait, which is DC.

 

long term means anything that is longer than the base fade rate, IE anything that can be stup before the combat.

 

now, For characters with broader potential (like say someone who can provide significant long term aid to everyone, say a guy with:

Aid 1d6 +14 max (20 cp max) +2 (all characteristics) +3/4 (fade per 1 hour) for 64 ap) I will usually say "sure" but then balance my encounters based on their expected AIDED levels.

 

After all, in my games, the challenges are "appropriate to the heroes".