Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

[Thia Halmades]

Okay guys, I'm curious as to how the experts will handle this. We'll assume for the moment that you're all going to be in my campaign. Congratulations! It's an Epic War/WW 2 style setting in a fantasy world. You've begun the game at 100 points (50/50) and I reserved 25 points of mystery disads, and you have since earned another 25 XP, so by the time you graduate from the academy, you're full blown Heroes (75/75 (25 mystery) for 150).

 

Let's go down the line about 3 years. Because the campaign is Heroic, you can't build yourself an EB or anything nutty, you aren't super heroes. You can use any standard fantasy class and then justify the abilities. Other than the obvious Wizard & Priest burning spells into VPPs, how would you model your higher-end heroic character?

[CourtFool]

What would a munchkin do?

 

'Super' Skills made popular by a little supliment called Dark Champions and Framework based martial arts shamelessly ripped off from Markdoc.

[Old Man]

Re: What would a munchkin do?

 

In my experience, long-running characters wound up with huge amounts of skill levels and (in the case of spellcasters) spells, supplemented with the magic items accrued over the course of a campaign. (Of course this is from before all the weird special maneuvers/abilities published in 5ed.) Before you know it, the archer who started out really good with a bow has so many levels he can shoot an orc in the eyelash in the dark from five miles out.

 

What's hard to do with gradual XP buildup is increasing the active point totals of spells, or climbing very far past NCM (STR excepted). A 250-point FH character is no match for a 250-point Champions character primarily because of NCM. Despite that, FH scales really well across this range. Rad accidents are not necessary, but always an option.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

I play most of my heroic games at 250 point characters.

It all comes down to character design, and the starting skill level you are going for. At 250 points I have done campaigns with characters power levels ranging from a Lankhmar/ Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser style low magic Swords & Sorcery all the way to Epic Mythic games based on the Norse Sagas and the Irish Epics, with Heros in the Cuchulain power level.

Its all in the campaign limits, ow much you allow or restrict powers, superskills and the like... and how you scale the opposition.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: What would a munchkin do?

 

I think CourFool's references could probably use a bit of explanation.

 

"Super Skills" is a concept developed for the Dark Champions modern-day adventure line, whereby the extraordinary abilities often displayed by "action heroes" in over-the-top movies are written up using the Powers system. A bunch of HEROphiles created a thread full of their own original Super Skills on the DC forum, which you can read here.

 

CF's reference to Mark "Markdoc" Doherty is to his excellent website, Mark's Astounding Cyber Empire O'Doom. Mark translated the HERO Martial Arts Maneuvers into Power builds suitable for placement in Frameworks like a Multipower, which has benefits and drawbacks when compared to the official MA system. You can read about it here. Note that these writeups are for 4E HERO System, so the costs will be a little different than if they were built under 5E.

 

On that point, though, our forum colleague Hierax did provide a fine detailed PDF with all the HERO MA maneuvers built in this fashion for 5E, as well as putting them together in styles suitable for fantasy campaigns, and even translating the art of the Monk class from D&D, including the progression in abilities as the monk gains Experience. Quite an impressive piece of work. Interested folks can download the PDF from here.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

Abilities, abilities, abilities.

 

And the idea of "super skills" -- ie exceptional abilities with the SFX of "skilled" or "talented" -- has been around a long long time.

 

 

One of the most fun / craziest campaigns I played in was run by WilyQ using my GreyHERO material back in the day. The campaign premise was rooted in events from a past campaign and would take a while to describe, so Ill just cut to the chase -- each PC was a 500 point warrior. We were directed to eshew magic users. We could have magic weapons / items if we wanted (paid for w. points for permanent Independent items and with money for ephemeral Non Recovering Charge items per my method), and we could have exceptional abilities, but no spellcasters.

 

The primary goal was to have fun of course, but the secondary goal was to see how a group full of high powered warriors would fare in comparison to past campaigns that tended to be MU heavy.

 

The campaign proved to be short lived due to RL events, but while it was running, let me tell you, OMG those were some stupendous badasses.

 

I cant recall all the details of builds, but the ones I remember:

 

Lethroc Mur Lavore aka "DEATHEYE" -- my character. This character was a notable and popular NPC in a previous campaign I had run. He was an assassin, basically, but not your typical sneaky poisoner stabbity kind of assassin. He was a hand to hand fighter, and he would basically just go right at his targets. More of a enforcer / hitman than a ninja in other words. Flinty, stoic, hard as nails, and 100% business. His namesake came from a moderately powerful magic item he had -- a mystical eye replacement. It had some sensory abilities (including a limited NRay Vision), and a 4d6 RKA w/ 4 Charges. He also had an item that gave him some Resistant Defense. Other than that he was all skill, martial manuevers, perks, and some exceptional abilities. He was the motivating force behind the adventure, intent on revenge.

 

Lord Colson: an armored knight / cavalier sort of character, mounted. The player opted to not take any magic items at all and made the quintessential knight character. We werent using Alignment per se, but he would have been somewhere between LN and LE in D&D terms. His robber fiefdom in the Wild Coast had been overrun by Orcs from the Pomarj, and his motivation for taking part in the adventure was the guy Deatheye was after was holed up in his former castle. On horseback this guy was gawdlike. On foot he was merely very impressive.

 

Stonebones: a Half Ogre thug from the Gnarlsvergia, he weilding a huge great sword (one handed), and was basically a fantasy Brick. Strong, tough, kind of slow but heavy damaging. He also had some exceptional abilities. The one I remember being significant was a loud bellow that could deafen those around him (AoE flash) and gave him a PRE boost (linked AID to PRE). Deatheye recruited him based upon a share of the large bounty on the head of the guy they were after.

 

The last two character's names escape me, bcs we generally referred to them as "the Dwarf" and "the Savage". Both were kind of stereotypical for their archetypes, and it just kind of worked out that way.

 

The player of the Dwarf got carried away with magic items, and the character was basically just a pile of magic armor, guantlets, axe, and misc other items. The character was kind of a laughing stock, suffering from his cheesy build on enumerable occasions. One of the funniest ongoing jokes from the campaign was that the Dwarf, used to being badass around other people by dint of his magic items, was extra strength cocky and obnoxious. The other real bad asses of the group took turns embarrasing and punk carding him, without even trying. The rest of the group did not want him along; he was after the bounty on the head of the guy Deatheye was after. The rest of the group was going to off him, due to his annoyance factor, but Deatheye counseled that they kite him along and use him as cannon fodder later on.

 

The Savage was a Chakyik totem warrior from the distant north. He had a series of different exceptional abilities based on various animal totems. Kind of an interesting character, he was the qunitessential inscrutable noble savage. The player took a very minimalist approach with the character; he basically just kind of faded into the woodwork and when events got hairy he would use his abilities conservatively -- just enough to succeed. Very efficient character, he was basically a super athlete with a lot of wilderness skills. He and Deatheye had worked together previously someplace else in the world, and Deatheye called in a favor to get him to come along (according to the back story -- not based on actual events in play).

 

 

 

 

Long story short, each of these characters, even the dippy Dwarf, were extremely dangerous and were capable of matching up against an equivalent pointed magic user. They had a combination of good stats, skills, CSLs, talents, perks, items, and exceptional abilities that added up to an impressive pile of capabilities.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: What would a munchkin do?

 

Answering the topic of the thread more directly, I tend to encourage characters to grow in breadth rather than power. While I usually enforce Damage Class caps in my campaigns, I'm fairly open to any PCs buying Skill Levels (combat and noncombat), various Skills, Martial Arts and Talents. I make a note of circumstances in the course of the campaign which would justify a character gaining particular abilities, and when a player wants to spend Experience to upgrade we go over the precedents and come to an agreement on what would be appropriate and desirable for the PC to improve on.

[Curufea]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

I just had an idea-

 

If you have an XP cap for characters, what about an investment in the next generation scheme? Over the cap counts as XP towards their next character when this one dies or retires. The next character could be completely unrelated, or could be a descendant.

[Fitz]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

That's not a bad idea. It reminds me of the system used in Bushido about a hundred years ago, in which one played a line of characters; player's actions had a direct effect not only on their current character, but also on their descendents.

 

The issue of characters with too much XP hasn't come up in our campaigns (yet). We have some old AD&D conversions running around that we've played since about 1980 with near enough to 500 character points, and though the style of play changes somewhat they're still quite workable in a Fantasy Hero setting.

[Old Man]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

Admittedly the problem of too much xp is rarely encountered when, like us, you play with hit locations, crits, and never fudge dice.

[Steve]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

I'm actually amazed at the number of points concepts can suck up with all the options available, such as when you throw super-skills and Perks into the mix. Even without going wild on DCs, Defenses, CVs and the like, I've still seen characters take as many as a 1000 points to do right. Of course, anyone can just pour points into a concept to get it to work. It's when I can take a limited number of points and craft something fun that I feel a certain sense of accomplishment.

[Old Man]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

The other thing to watch out for with high-point-total characters is survivability. In Champions, it's not difficult to make even poorly defended characters like martial artists tough, with sufficient CON, BODY, rPD/rED and probably token amounts of flash, ego, and power defense to go with it. That's in keeping with the genre, after all--superheroes tend to be able to absorb insane amounts of punishment with no explanation other than "he's a mutant".

 

In FH, however, that's harder. Resistant defenses will generally not exceed 8-10 for non-mage characters, and practically no one will be able to afford a BODY higher than 20. Odd defenses like Flash and Power defense will also be in short supply. Conversely, attacks can easily climb into the vicinity of 60-75 active points; combine that with hit location and the low defenses and you can develop some serious lethality problems if you're not careful.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

Well, that is my concern really. So far no one has said "A 500 point character who doesn't have to buy gear can't be done." You have said "Buy Dark Champions."

 

Rawr. Well, it at least gives me a gauge of where things may or may not go.

[OddHat]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

Here are a few 250 point Pulp Hero characters, and one 150 point Pulp character. They could be adapted to Fantasy Hero with minimal effort.

 

Pulp Hero and Dark Champions are full of abilities that would work well in a Fantasy setting without being magic. Or you can just look at your favorite Fantasy books and reason from effect.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

Hrm, more accurately, Oddhat, I was trying to figure out what happens when a Fantasy character who's Heroic, and isn't buying all their gear, gets 500 XP.

 

~DEM

[OddHat]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

Hrm' date=' more accurately, [b']Oddhat[/b], I was trying to figure out what happens when a Fantasy character who's Heroic, and isn't buying all their gear, gets 500 XP.

 

~DEM

 

Ah. Similar answer though; he ends up with masses of "Super" Skills, followers (say a pet dragon or a flying steed, a few faithful high power henchmen), a base or two, favors owed by Elemental lords, etc. Think the high end version of Elric, or Corwin et al from Zelzany's Amber books (easily 800+ point characters).

[Old Man]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

CSLs and stats, for the most part, if the character is not a magician of some sort. With occasional, infrequent increases in noncombat skills/abilities. And the emphasis will really be on CSLs once the character starts bouncing off the NCM ceiling.

 

If the player took the long view, they could eventually buy 50 overall levels with that 500 XP. Assuming a 20 DEX, that's OCV 58/DCV 10 with a broadsword and large shield. Are we playing with critical hits?

[Archon]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

Hrm' date=' more accurately, [b']Oddhat[/b], I was trying to figure out what happens when a Fantasy character who's Heroic, and isn't buying all their gear, gets 500 XP.

 

~DEM

 

I'll have to dig out a copy of my char, Mixtlel Gryphonclaw. He started at 150 and by the end of 2 campaigns had around 100xp not including his equipment. However, the aforementioned superskills is a good description of where he was going. He never grew much in direct power, except for his artifact class super bow, but his versatility was becoming nuts. He was also the only character in that campaign that wasn't a mage.

 

Archon

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

Just sit down and make a few characters at different point ranges. Nothing is better than hands on experience.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

alrighty, you want a 500 point character with no "special powers" or magic abilities?

 

I'm currently runnning a 500 point singles game (now around 550 +75 points of free equipment), where each player gets individual GM time from me. It's a highfantasy/Scifi genre. I have built plenty of character who are on 500 points without equipment. I good one is Ekaterina, whom I already posted, she's around 500 points (+ 75 points of equipment) and she has no tricky abilities other than being a Cat person.

 

and example of one of her super skills would be Advanced Rolling with the punches...which is just 50% PD damage reduction on a dex roll.

The updated version (after getting up to the PC's level) also has re roll luck for re rolling DFCs on the ground that she's so darn dexterous that she can get out of the way. It's only 1d6, but it's never caused a problem.

Her defenses are low for the campaign setting, so she has to make up for it by never being hit.

 

I'll second what the others are saying about acquiring pets, bases, skills and what not. There are a TON of things you can buy for your character. It's always a matter of what would they have gottn after that time.

 

Recently I played in a Sci-Fi game where we started with 200 points and when we ended I had around 400. I added slots to my multipower, increased my defenses, bought Combat SLs, SL, Overall SLs, Movement SLs, increased my character's knowlege, and made her more powerful as she grew.

 

Granted she was a baby Dragon at the beggining of the campaign, but withough buying equipment there were a ton of things to drop points in.

 

I guess I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for. Are you trying to see if there are enough things that you can justify buying with XP when you're playing a heroic game without stepping into the realm of the absurd?

 

If so the answer is, whatever you want to buy that makes sense for your character.

 

And a 500 point character who doesn't need gear can most certainly be done. So can higher point ones. ....which reminds me...I should be building NPCs as we speak....darn you high powered game and your exspensive villans!

*grumbles about the 1200 point Greater demon she should be making instead of chatting*

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

I have a few of the 1200 point variety. Nasty git. That, and I've build undead as automatons and some lovely demonic minions as well. Getting my VILLAINS up in the stratosphere is easy, but thanks for the input!

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

I have a few of the 1200 point variety. Nasty git. That' date=' and I've build undead as automatons and some lovely demonic minions as well. Getting my VILLAINS up in the stratosphere is easy, but thanks for the input![/quote']

 

I assumed you were curious about PCs, in which case they are no different than making a villian. Plot just controls where they go.

 

Honestly, I find it the hardest to build either really big characters, or really small ones (points wise) but doling out thier XP has never been an issue.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

My primary concern, really, is making sure they have reasonable places to spend their points without having to build ceilings. I can build the ceiling if necessary, although I'd prefer not too. We've been doing the one-shot campaign (which has now gone two sessions, curses!) and the last game didn't go as I planned, but I rewarded the players for following their "flight" over "fight" instincts.

 

My primary concern is that, unfamiliar as I am with the system, in d20 (my base of comparison, as that's what I've been playing the last three or four years) I know that the system is a wealth management tier. You gain feats as a fighter, a few feats as a non fighter with some specials. Good points have been made regarding bases and followers, though, which are both standard genre tropes.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

The HERO system is much more organic than d20. Characters tend to grow in response to events in play bcs unlike in a level system they CAN. Characters also tend to improve existing abilities rather than buy into new abilities because that is the more efficient method of advancing a point based character.

 

Typically characters dont start branching out until their character's existing capabilities are "covered" sufficiently. This takes different amounts of time for different characters, but it usually takes between 50 and 150 XP (more for some spellcasters). We call this hitting the "gravy" stage in my group -- basically the character is solid and everything extra is just "gravy".

 

You don't need a ceiling, and you really don't need to worry about it. Worry about the way the group balances at their CURRENT point range. As they advance in character points, the game scales nicely so long as you keep the challenges appropriate relative to the PC's

[Curufea]

Re: Higher Point Characters in FH/Heroic setting

 

I'm incorporating the concept of investing XP into future characters in my campaign-

http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/WS:Character_death

 

I'll let you know how it goes.