Worst comic book superfight ever

[Bloodstone]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As I recall' date=' he appeared a few issues later in Spidey and tore the stitches on his face. With the healing factor a few months later in X-Men #213, he should have healed up in a couple of panels, much less several issues. In fairness, I don't know whether his healing factor had previously been established and the Spidey issues are out of sync on this matter.[/quote']

 

I know for a fact I never read the issue, but I seem to recall reading or being told that Black Cat opened him back up.

 

Regardless, the healing factor and natural claws were both retcons and, as far as I know, completly unexplained.

 

Then again, 90% of what made Wolverine "cool" was retconed into him, so I can't overly fault them for doing the same to his nemesis

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Then again' date=' 90% of what made Wolverine "cool" was retconed into him, so I can't overly fault them for doing the same to his nemesis [/quote']

 

Most of Wolvie's retcon's (anything I can recall), while not contemplated by the creator of the character, wasn't contradictory to anything that had gone before. He was envisioned as late teens/early 20's, but never shown as such out of costume, so the decision he was older didn't change anything. He was envisioned as having claws in his gloves, but never shown lacking access to them when he needed them, so popping them out of the back of his hand changed nothing. The bone claws weren't contradictory to established history, although they weren't envisioned previously.

 

Sabertooth just got a sudden power upgrade that took him from "Spidey's whipping boy" to "a credible threat to the entire team of X-Men" in books published only a few months apart (if that).

 

The change was definitely good for the character, and opened up story arcs preventing Sabertooth from sinking back into "obscure villain" status [and likely getting offed by Scourge], but it was a major change inconsistent with past storylines. I recall reading the X-Men book and wondering when this power upgrade happened. By that standard, I'd classify X-Men #213 as being as bad as any other book where established power levels get tossed. The major difference is that they kept writing Sabertooth at his new power level afterwards.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The change was definitely good for the character' date=' and opened up story arcs preventing Sabertooth from sinking back into "obscure villain" status [and likely getting offed by Scourge'], but it was a major change inconsistent with past storylines. I recall reading the X-Men book and wondering when this power upgrade happened. By that standard, I'd classify X-Men #213 as being as bad as any other book where established power levels get tossed. The major difference is that they kept writing Sabertooth at his new power level afterwards.

I forget, is that the one where he brawls with Wolverine for msot of the issue ("I'm bigger than you, stronger than you, and your fancy claws can't cut what they can't hit!"), or the one where he invades the Mansion, shorts out Betsy's telepathy with his sheer badassitude, and knocks Rogue out by two-fisted-smacking her into a rock?

 

I mean, after being punched to the moon by Binary, that was something of a low point in her personal career. I always argued that pointed to her defences not being 'always on', but that argument just didn't hold water when compared to other issues.

[Twilight]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Yup' date=' was a flying brick. But Rogue has evidenced far greater power levels than Ms Marvel ever did (until she became Binary). She's also exhibited super-speed (in recent comics, she did the Superman trick of catching bullets... but EVERY BULLET from a gatling gun). That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I seem to remember various other powers cropping up and thinking 'hang on, where did that come from?'[/quote']

 

The fact that she's absorbed more powers then just Ms Marvel's perhaps? I know in recent years she's been able to use the powers of anybody she's ever absorbed the powers of in the past [i belive it was described as her overcoming a psychological block or somesuch, though I could be wrong.] So if the incident you mentioned happened recently, that would explain it.

[Twilight]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I know for a fact I never read the issue, but I seem to recall reading or being told that Black Cat opened him back up.

 

Regardless, the healing factor and natural claws were both retcons and, as far as I know, completly unexplained.

 

Then again, 90% of what made Wolverine "cool" was retconed into him, so I can't overly fault them for doing the same to his nemesis

 

 

The healing factor was but I'm quite sure he always had the claws. I remember him trying to use them against Power Man in that comic I used to have. He wasn't very successful, but then lots of people can't pierce Luke Cage's skin.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Thor versus Goliath in Civil War. I admit that Goliath is a has-been (never was), but I personally don't like the storyline. I certainly don't like it when they pick on some poor schmoe to make a "dramatic" point. Especially if I don't feel that the payoff is worth it.

 

I will restrain myself, so I don't spoil the series for others.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

The healing factor was but I'm quite sure he always had the claws. I remember him trying to use them against Power Man in that comic I used to have. He wasn't very successful' date=' but then lots of people can't pierce Luke Cage's skin.[/quote']

 

Oh, he always had claws, they just didn't used to be natural from what I'm told. Apparently, they were attached to the gloves he wore. Can't confirm that though, since I don't have the issues in question... but, I might know sombody who does. I'll look into it.

[mikesama]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

"

See there is this canadian Mutant with claws and a healing factor, and this alien who normaly fights GL's and Superman who is super strong, has knives, and a even BETTER healing factor. They meet up in an intergalactic bar and throw down (over some stupid, this is how bar brawls start issue), they take it behind the bar, and then some fight noices, then wolverine stands up and says "He's the best at what he does bub"

 

Shows you how popularity can turn the tide of common sense"

 

 

That was only the prequel. Anyone read the Access sequel, where the JLA fought the X Men (Storm, Cyclops, Jubilee, De-Phoenixed Jean Grey, Bishop, Ice Man, and Cannonball)? Here's a partial list of the cheese:

 

1. Cannonball nails Aquaman with his canonflight...so far, so good. But he then proceeds to pimp slap Aquaman in hand to hand combat. Umm...no.

 

2. Batman is shown charging Cyclops and dodging his blasts...pretty bad, but THEN he grabs Cyclops in a rear choke hold, and someohw Cyclops STILL manages to blast him off panel. Scott can turn his head 180 degrees? Who knew?

 

3. Jean Grey holds off SUPERMAN by TK'ing rocks into him. Fist-sized, kriptonite-free rocks.

 

But the winner?

 

4. Bishops beats up the Martian Manhunter. Just kicks his ass (Physically, mind, not through absorbing J'ohns Martian vision) in each and every panel shown. At one point, he pulls a bookcase on top of J'ohn, and THIS HURTS HIM.

 

 

I can see the writter having a Marvel bias, but he could have at LEAST done some basic research on the characters he was using.

 

 

Lets see, to make these believeable:

 

1: Really Cannonball should have just kept flying in a line until he had knocked out AWuaman, cheep but workable.

 

2: Batman dodging Cyclops's blasts in perfectly acceptable and quite honestly he should be able to judo throw Batman off him at least once giving him enough time for a follow up shot that could take Batman down.

 

3: Jean Grey holding off Superman with telepathy, now that has a much better chance of working.

 

4: Bishop vrs J'onn in HTH ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Stupid, like the man said

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Oh' date=' he always had claws, they just didn't used to be natural from what I'm told. Apparently, they were attached to the gloves he wore. Can't confirm that though, since I don't have the issues in question... but, I might know sombody who does. I'll look into it.[/quote']

 

I know Wolvie's claws were initially envisioned as being part of his gloves, but I'm not sure Sabertooth's weren't natural from the character's inception.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

2: Batman dodging Cyclops's blasts in perfectly acceptable and quite honestly he should be able to judo throw Batman off him at least once giving him enough time for a follow up shot that could take Batman down.

 

Cyclops is a better martial artist than Batman?

[Twilight]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Cyclops is a better martial artist than Batman?

 

I've always felt that Batman's martial arts were very inconsistently portrayed. One moment he's going toe to toe with Lady Shiva, other moments he's barely capable of taking somebody like Black Mask.

 

At any rate, I have no trouble with Cyclops being able to tag Batman with his optic blasts since he's supposed to be very good with them and trains with them all the time. Bishop taking J'onn is stupid however.

[Questar]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

For me, you could put in almost any fight of Barry Allen Flash versus his Flash Rogues Gallery. Lessee... Captain Cold...Heat Wave...The Top...The Trickster...Mirror Man...Gorilla Grodd...Weather Wizard...fill-in-the-blank...

 

None of those fights should have gone over ..oh... four or five nano-seconds.

 

 

Villain: "If the Flash shows up I'll -- Wha--? Where did my weapon go? How did I get into this prison garb? How did I get into this prison?"

 

But as for Deathstroke taking out the entire JLA ... heh. That's on a level of Spider-man beating TWO Heralds of Galactus and the Sinister Six all at the same time. Absolutely shameless.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I've always felt that Batman's martial arts were very inconsistently portrayed. One moment he's going toe to toe with Lady Shiva, other moments he's barely capable of taking somebody like Black Mask.

 

At any rate, I have no trouble with Cyclops being able to tag Batman with his optic blasts since he's supposed to be very good with them and trains with them all the time. Bishop taking J'onn is stupid however.

 

I'd put down the Black Mask deal to the entire Batverse suffering a fatal overdose of bad writing these past couple of years.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I've always felt that Batman's martial arts were very inconsistently portrayed. One moment he's going toe to toe with Lady Shiva, other moments he's barely capable of taking somebody like Black Mask.

 

At any rate, I have no trouble with Cyclops being able to tag Batman with his optic blasts since he's supposed to be very good with them and trains with them all the time. Bishop taking J'onn is stupid however.

I'm no expert but I certainly understand Cyclops should have an excellent shot at Batman with the eyes. I just was questioning whether Cyclops could really get a throw on Batman; from my limited understanding, I would think Cyclops noticeably inferior to Batman in any hand-to-hand fighting contests.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

For me, you could put in almost any fight of Barry Allen Flash versus his Flash Rogues Gallery. Lessee... Captain Cold...Heat Wave...The Top...The Trickster...Mirror Man...Gorilla Grodd...Weather Wizard...fill-in-the-blank...

 

None of those fights should have gone over ..oh... four or five nano-seconds.

 

 

Villain: "If the Flash shows up I'll -- Wha--? Where did my weapon go? How did I get into this prison garb? How did I get into this prison?"

 

But as for Deathstroke taking out the entire JLA ... heh. That's on a level of Spider-man beating TWO Heralds of Galactus and the Sinister Six all at the same time. Absolutely shameless.

Bah, I liked the old Flash vs. Mirror Man/Captain Boomerang/etc.

 

But I understand, realistically, what you are saying.

 

But sometimes realism really conflicts with some of the good comic book stories. Not to suggest this is necessarily one of those cases, I fully admit that Flash's rogue gallery and conflicts between he and they were more of a fun, colorful thing, and I don't pretend that I can "prove" that they were consistent or great battles. I do like them, though, at least the ones from the early-mid '70s that I read.

[ZootSoot]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Can't read through all this now, but am I the only one who remembers that when Spiderman beat Firelord it was right at the beginning of huge mysterious power-up he was going through that was ultimately identified as his coming into possession of the Captain Universe power? Captain universe is both cheesy and sleazy but is surely explanation enough for that victory . . .

 

The worst comicbook superfight ever? Just from a logic point of view everything in DC comics reeks with half the characters having "superspeed" which means that not only should they win every fight they have with non superspeed characters but they should already have done so . . .

 

Maybe the worst was a non-superpowered confrontation in which an FBI strike team consisted of a man his wife and her father. Can you imagine the fibbers putting this group together? But then we would never have had the new Professor Zoom without it . . . another reason to hate it, I suppose.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

am I the only one who remembers that when Spiderman beat Firelord it was right at the beginning of huge mysterious power-up he was going through that was ultimately identified as his coming into possession of the Captain Universe power?

 

I think you probably are the only one, because those two storylines were about four years apart and had over fifty issues between them.

[ZootSoot]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I think you probably are the only one' date=' because those two storylines were about four years apart and had over fifty issues between them. [/quote']

 

Could cite me some issue numbers on that, it's been a while but I think they are much closer than you think.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Could cite me some issue numbers on that' date=' it's been a while but I think they are much closer than you think.[/quote']

 

Spider-Man vs. Firelord: ASM 269-270, 1985.

 

Spider-Man vs. Graviton, Part 1 of Cosmic Spidey/Acts of Vengeance: ASM 326, 1989.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

For me, you could put in almost any fight of Barry Allen Flash versus his Flash Rogues Gallery. Lessee... Captain Cold...Heat Wave...The Top...The Trickster...Mirror Man...Gorilla Grodd...Weather Wizard...fill-in-the-blank...

 

None of those fights should have gone over ..oh... four or five nano-seconds.

 

 

Villain: "If the Flash shows up I'll -- Wha--? Where did my weapon go? How did I get into this prison garb? How did I get into this prison?"

 

But as for Deathstroke taking out the entire JLA ... heh. That's on a level of Spider-man beating TWO Heralds of Galactus and the Sinister Six all at the same time. Absolutely shameless.

 

Bah, I liked the old Flash vs. Mirror Man/Captain Boomerang/etc.

...

As A Flash mark, I need to say something here.

 

 

 

ahem

 

 

 

 

It's Mirror Master.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Ooops, yup, of course...thanks!

 

(can't rep you yet, apparently)

[Sealemon]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

"Lets see, to make these believeable:

 

1: Really Cannonball should have just kept flying in a line until he had knocked out AWuaman, cheep but workable.

 

2: Batman dodging Cyclops's blasts in perfectly acceptable and quite honestly he should be able to judo throw Batman off him at least once giving him enough time for a follow up shot that could take Batman down.

 

3: Jean Grey holding off Superman with telepathy, now that has a much better chance of working.

 

4: Bishop vrs J'onn in HTH ... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Stupid, like the man said"

And just like that, you showed how three out the four fights could have been legitimate, and it presumably took you no time at all. For a professional comic book writer to fail to do the same is just sad.

 

 

P.S. I should add that in this same issue Wonder Woman once again butted heads with Storm, and this time they fought to a standstill. Of course, that still doesn't make up the first fight, where Storm beat Wonder Woman, after getting her head kicked in, as others have pointed out in this thread. In addition, there is no explanation in either fight as to how Storm's lighting should hurt Wonder Woman while she's flying (Or how Wonder Woman was blocking lighting with her metal bracelets).

[Questar]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Bah, I liked the old Flash vs. Mirror Man/Captain Boomerang/etc.

 

But I understand, realistically, what you are saying.

 

But sometimes realism really conflicts with some of the good comic book stories. Not to suggest this is necessarily one of those cases, I fully admit that Flash's rogue gallery and conflicts between he and they were more of a fun, colorful thing, and I don't pretend that I can "prove" that they were consistent or great battles. I do like them, though, at least the ones from the early-mid '70s that I read.

 

 

Well, I agree with your point. I wasn't trying to criticize the stories, just to have a little laugh about them. A lot of those stories were very entertaining, and that was the whole point of them, no matter that you could poke a hundred holes in them if you wanted to. You can't criticize a Silver Age comic because it follows different rules than a modern comic. You have to take it for what it was and realize that comics were being produced with a very different set of expectations. I was just poking a little fun.

 

Even today, to expect consistency in stories about ultra-powerful, god-like, impossible beings, written by many different writers is just not a realistic expectation. Trying to use them to "prove" anything is pretty much fruitless. And there are bound to be those really head-scratching stories that just seem to fly in the face of ALL logic and precedent.

 

Then, of course, there was Bob Haney, who deliberately ignored any consistency or continuity for years...

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Ah, well, I took you a little more harshly then, sorry!

 

Well said.

[proditor]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I'm no expert but I certainly understand Cyclops should have an excellent shot at Batman with the eyes. I just was questioning whether Cyclops could really get a throw on Batman; from my limited understanding' date=' I would think Cyclops noticeably inferior to Batman in any hand-to-hand fighting contests.[/quote']

 

I'm not so sure I'd say noticably. Cyke has gone toe to toe with the entire team (That whole Madelyne Pryor/Dark Phoenix "rebirth" thing) and thrown around Colossus, Nightcrawler, and Wolverine while trying to get to the danger room. Kitty put the only real hurtin' on him once he got his bearings, and she popped out of the wall and hit him with nasty kidney shot/tackle. Plus, Cyke is used to training against/fighting guys who dodge his blasts while closing, and then whipping out the Judo to throw them into the set up for a perfect blast. (e.g.: Nightcrawler, Beast, Wolverine, etc. etc.)

 

All of that said, Batman is also used to winging a metric ton of batarangs at someone who is trying to shoot him, and usually using a few as distractions while he gets close, or one slips by to tag his target.

 

I could almost see it going either way honestly. Sort of depends on what level Bruce has his ego ratcheted up to that day.