Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

[Christougher]

In a Champions game with a normal 75 AP limit, characters are allowed to have a single exceptional "signature" power of up to 90 AP. HKAs and Hand Attacks include added STR for this purpose. But 90 AP of Growth or Density Increase gives +90 STR *and* incidentals (stun/body or pd/ed), while shrinking's DCV bonus hits the base DCV cap as well.

 

Characters shouldn't be prevented from having these powers at those levels, but they shouldn't be allowed a double-dip at that level. And rather than esoteric twists and bends, it seems like the most reasonable answer may be to redefine the benefits from those powers.

 

5 AP of Growth gives +3 STR instead of +5, everything else the same.

5 AP of Density Increase gives +3 STR instead of +5, everything else the same.

10 AP of Shrinking gives +1 DCV instead of +2, everything else the same.

 

Any thoughts or opinions other than 'drop the AP cap' ?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

"Signature Growth" guy (or "Signature Density Increase" guy) shouldn't be a problem. The main benefit of those powers *is* the strength (over half the cost I imagine) - and they will be different enough from the "Signature 90 Strength" guy that they won't tread on each other's schtick.

 

(Although having more STR than him IS a problem, true).

 

I've used "Does not violate the Square/Cube Law" as a -1/2 limitation (15 points gives +10 STR), although it is probably more of a -1/4.

 

 

As for Shrinking.... if you're the size of a microbe, you should be hard to hit. It's not like you'll be completely impossible to hit - Area Effect and so forth. Again, it's not like being tiny is really worth that many points.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

First of all, does your game have a damage cap? Because a character with 10 STR and 90 points of Growth is going to be doing 20d6 with a punch vs the 18d6 that you could get with a 90 AP Energy Blast. Same as if you allow somone to spend an extra 90 points to raise Strength as their signature power. You may want to limit both powers to only 80 AP for this reason. Or, in the case of Growth, allow up to 90 AP, but a max of 16 levels (the rest being made up of advantages). You could then have a character with 20 base STR and 12 levels of 0 END Growth that would do 18d6 with full sized punch. But I digress.

 

That said, 90 AP of Strength is arguably worth more then 90 AP of Growth, so reducing the value of Growth is just going to run you into problems. The Growth user needs to pay end every round for both the growth and the strength he uses. His strength is non persistant, so he loses it if stunned or KOed. Furthermore, he doesn't benefit form figured characteristics like improved PD, REC or STUN (well, he does get a little STUN, but not as much as he would if he bought +90 STR). And he suffers a serious DCV penalty and is easier to notice while using Growth. This isn't even getting into all the situations where you can't use Growth due to environmenal factors, like being inside a building.

 

Sure growth has some other benefits, like improved inches of reach, Knockback resistance and some extra Body, but nothing is preventing you from buying all that via things like limited Stretching. All the benefits, none of the diadvantages...

[Christougher]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

WhammeWhamme, Signature Growth Man has the same STR as Signature Strength Man, plus he's 200 feet tall. That's the problem. Siggy Grow shouldn't be as strong as Siggy STR. Five points of Growth/DI is 5 points of STR *plus* benefits (and drawbacks). Your limitation is about the same as the figures I started from, only 10/15 instead of 3/5(9/15).

 

Bloodstone, the 90 AP cap = 18d6 damage cap. I don't really want to make an exception for a few powers though. Though STR currently is an exception of sorts - it follows a different rule - that you can add 90 AP to any characteristic. Banning the powers and forcing them to build by constituent parts doesn't sound like the right idea. (Oh, and *both* of them are going to lose the use of their STR if stunned or KO'd.)

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

WhammeWhamme, Signature Growth Man has the same STR as Signature Strength Man, plus he's 200 feet tall. That's the problem. Siggy Grow shouldn't be as strong as Siggy STR. Five points of Growth/DI is 5 points of STR *plus* benefits (and drawbacks). Your limitation is about the same as the figures I started from, only 10/15 instead of 3/5(9/15).

 

Bloodstone, the 90 AP cap = 18d6 damage cap. I don't really want to make an exception for a few powers though. Though STR currently is an exception of sorts - it follows a different rule - that you can add 90 AP to any characteristic. Banning the powers and forcing them to build by constituent parts doesn't sound like the right idea. (Oh, and *both* of them are going to lose the use of their STR if stunned or KO'd.)

 

Flip it around: Signature STR man has the same STR as Signature Growth Man, except HE can use it while only being 6ft tall!

 

Both of them have the power of Superstrength. Growth Guy just occupies more space when using it. But they have different flavours, so it's probably okay, they can cohabit.

 

(It's even more obvious with Dense Guy: He is as strong, ocucpies the same space... the only difference is he gets a different set of figured characteristics but has to weigh tonnes to use it all.)

[Arkham]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

I think you're missing the obvious solution, which would be to do the same as you do for HA/HKA. Simply include the base STR with the points from Growth/DI.

And similarly include the base DCV with the DCV bonus from shrinking...

[Christougher]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

I think you're missing the obvious solution, which would be to do the same as you do for HA/HKA. Simply include the base STR with the points from Growth/DI.

And similarly include the base DCV with the DCV bonus from shrinking...

 

The problem with that, and why I started the thread - it essentially makes Siggy Tall, Siggy Heavy and Siggy Small untenable. Then again, I had no problem making that statement for HA/HKA... Have to think on this one.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

I would consider Tall Guy, Heavy Guy and Strong Guy to be different enough, simply because the secondary powers they each have would be different.

 

Tall Guy would have tricks relating to his size ... AE Strength for huge fists, extra running for long legs, etc.

 

Heavy Guy would have tricks relating to his density. Stuff like Blackstar has in CKC; minor gravity tricks about drawing things to him, that sort of thing.

 

Strong Guy would have tricks on raw strength that the others probably wouldn't; the wrap-up entangle, the shockwave, the Flick of Unconsciousness. While the other guys *could* do that, it's a lot less typical for Growth/DI bricks to use 'strength finesse' tricks like that.

 

As far as the cap goes, I'd definitely make it a STR cap rather than an AP cap. So, if Heavy Guy has a base 20 STR, he can take 14 levels of DI to make a 90 STR. He and Strong Guy may be bricks, but they should easily be able to distinguish one another and not feel like toes are being stepped on.

[Arkham]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

The problem with that' date=' and why I started the thread - it essentially makes Siggy Tall, Siggy Heavy and Siggy Small untenable. Then again, I had no problem making that statement for HA/HKA... Have to think on this one.[/quote']

 

Would it?

Would having 70 AP of Growth instead of 90 AP of Growth because you started with 20 STR mean you don't have Growth as your signature power?

 

It just makes it cheaper, and then you can spend the 20 saved points on the extras needed to make Growth work better. Extra inches of running, stretching, AoE for STR, or something like that...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

I suppose you could buy 90 AP of Growth with the proviso that you must either limit the Growth so the last X AP provides no STR boost, or limit your STR so that it doesn't add to Growth to get over 90. Or take a Physical Limitation for it.

[Justicebringer]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

First of all, does your game have a damage cap? Because a character with 10 STR and 90 points of Growth is going to be doing 20d6 with a punch vs the 18d6 that you could get with a 90 AP Energy Blast. Same as if you allow somone to spend an extra 90 points to raise Strength as their signature power. You may want to limit both powers to only 80 AP for this reason.

 

I generally would allow a brick to keep the extra ten pts for the simple reason that he has to be in the thick of things as opposed to firing from range. The blaster will (in most cases) be able to get into combat faster and should be somewhat safer the brick. I see it as another form of game balance. As characters gather xp that will change to some degree but for new characters I think it works rather well.

 

As for DI, the negative aspect of things should balance a straight Str based brick. Falling through floors or at the extreme lvls possibly ripping through pavement falling into a sewer system or for more fun onto subway rail line with a passenger packed train moments away from sudden impact.

[Kelcyron]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

If I were the player considering doing DI or Growth, I'd be much more likely to do 14 levels, costs end only to activate: +1/4 (88 active) just to keep the end expenditure reasonable, and have a 20 base strength. Damage stays at 18d6, and my life is much less tiring.

 

That's just me though

 

Kelcyron

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

There is something about Growth and Density Increase that you may be overlooking: Both of those Powers cost Endurance every Phase that they're used, in addition to any Strength that the character may employ. DI Man will be using END at least twice as fast as Strength Man unless he buys some Reduced Endurance for Density Increase. Almost every character I've seen with those Powers does so, otherwise they're very inefficient.

 

If you have an Active Point cap in your game, that Advantage should count toward your AP total.

[Markdoc]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

And in any case, this is less a problem with growth, DI and shrinking (none of which are killer powers due to the END cost) than it is with points caps.

 

If I was going to modify I'd target the problem directly.

 

cheers, Mark

[Christougher]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

And in any case, this is less a problem with growth, DI and shrinking (none of which are killer powers due to the END cost) than it is with points caps.

 

If I was going to modify I'd target the problem directly.

 

cheers, Mark

 

How?

[Christougher]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

Would it?

Would having 70 AP of Growth instead of 90 AP of Growth because you started with 20 STR mean you don't have Growth as your signature power?

 

It just makes it cheaper, and then you can spend the 20 saved points on the extras needed to make Growth work better. Extra inches of running, stretching, AoE for STR, or something like that...

 

Yes, by definition a signature power is one that is allowed to exceed the otherwise normal 75 AP cap. Anyone can have 70 AP of growth, only Siggy Tall should have more.

[Zed-F]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

In general, just buying straight STR is 'better' than buying Growth or Density Increase. That's because you get massively better figured characteristics with STR than you do with Growth or DI, and it's invisible, 0 END, and persistent for free. The easiest way to make growth/DI comparable in value to STR is to plop it in a framework.

 

As far as caps go, just institute whatever caps you like, e.g. a damage cap. They should apply equally to both STR and growth/DI.

[Guest Suleyman Rashid]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

If you've already said something about this, sorry, but have you asked the GM yet what he thinks?

[Steve]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

Shrinking also allows the notion of the "grow-through" attack, which is something to keep aware of. With DI, Shrinking and a bit of STR added into a grow-through attack, it seems like it would make for a heck of an alpha strike. Sneak up behind enemy while shrunk and then POW!

[Markdoc]

Re: Rethinking Growth DI and Shrinking

 

How?

 

Eliminate the points cap. It's the artificial limit which is causing the problem, not the relative balance of the powers. As already noted in this and other threads, just buying the extra STR is a far better deal with regard to damage and general character power.

 

cheers, Mark