Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists I think Marvel always touted Shang-Chi as being "the world's formost master of martial arts." While at the same time it was said that Captian America was "the world's formost hand to hand combatant." There is a grave danger in taking narrative hyperbole and interpreting it literally. Stuff like this leads you to believe that Superman hits "with the force of a million H-bombs" (DOOMSDAY: HUNTER/PREY) and that the Ten-Eyed Man is "the most dangerous man alive!" (Silver Age BATMAN comics). For a more Marvel-oriented example, the Avengers have always been billed as "Earth's Mightiest Heroes!"... and while that statement is true for *some* Avengers line-ups, there have been other Avengers line-ups that could have been singlehandedly schooled by Lockheed the Dragon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists http://www.marvel.com/universe/index.htm I haven't been able to find an explanation of the stats in their "Abilities" section. I want to know why, for example, Thor has his Speed rating maxed out, where guys like Quicksilver and Nightcrawler score significantly lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Which in a rational universe would mean that I'd be accepted as knowing more about Iron Fist's genuine power levels, feats, and history than you. Might I recommend the ESSENTIAL IRON FIST collection if you'd like to see more? I freely give you this one, doesn't change the fact that he has been beaten straight up. Which is what I said in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists There is a grave danger in taking narrative hyperbole and interpreting it literally. Stuff like this leads you to believe that Superman hits "with the force of a million H-bombs" (DOOMSDAY: HUNTER/PREY) and that the Ten-Eyed Man is "the most dangerous man alive!" (Silver Age BATMAN comics). Okay. Fine. I just like Captian America best. So there. Actually my favorite was always Iron Man but I admit he is more a brute force type and not a martial artist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists > This is the stupidest statement I've ever seen you make. Seriously. There's > a part of me that thinks you want to take it back. Nope, absolutely none. Cap has never beaten Iron Fist that I know about, and therefore I think your statement of Cap supposedly having arsewhipped Iron Fist is wrong. (And given that you can't remember where you read it, I'm wondering if you remembered what you read with any more accuracy.) But note, all of this is me going 'Jeff, I think you're wrong' not 'Jeff, I think you're lying.' *sigh* Man, even when I *TRY* to give people the benefit of the doubt, they still refuse to believe it. Stuff like this makes me bitter and cranky. > "Actually, Cap has never beaten Iron Fist." Is not an opinion, it is > declarative (obviously). Well, yes, it is. But making a declarative statement in opposition to a declarative statement of your own is...? ... me thinking that you're wrong. Not lying, not deliberately attempting to deceive, not anything insulting -- merely *wrong*. Have you never been wrong in an Internet post before? Do you truly consider it such a mortal insult to be accused of such? (I mean, God knows people tell me they think I'm wrong all the damn time.) And I am going 'straight up' with you on this... hell, all of the trouble I get into on these boards is because I don't know any other mode of interaction *but* 'straight-up', i.e., blunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists I think Marvel always touted Shang-Chi as being "the world's formost master of martial arts." While at the same time it was said that Captian America was "the world's formost hand to hand combatant." If we use descriptions like that, then Iron Man should never lose because he's "Invincible". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists I freely give you this one' date=' doesn't change the fact that he has been beaten straight up.[/quote'] I ain't believin' this until I see it(*), and in order for me to see it, you'll have to be a little more precise on where I *can* see it other than "it's somewhere in Captain America volume 1." (Seeing as how the v1 run of the CAPTAIN AMERICA comic has, what, over 350 issues?) (*) And no, this is not -- that's *NOT* with a capital "NO", for people who refuse to pay attention -- an accusation that you're lying. It's an accusation that I think you're remembering it wrong. i.e. -- that you are mistaken. (And hey, given that you can't remember even *vaguely* what issue # it was, I think I'm not entirely off the rails re: suspecting that your memory of this issue is something less than perfect.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists I think Marvel always touted Shang-Chi as being "the world's formost master of martial arts." While at the same time it was said that Captian America was "the world's formost hand to hand combatant." So I'd rate Captian America #1 and Shang-Chi #2. I am not going to hazard a guess beyond that point. I stopped reading comic books around 1985 or so. I always figure Cap rates higher as an overall fighter mainly because of his supersoldier enhancements. If Shang Chi got that same mojo, he'd easily whup Cap straight up (as much as anyone "easily" beats Cap). I thought this thread was about ranking martial arts skill - as in well-defined schools of fighting technique - and not overall fighting ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Actually, no, it's not official enough for me. I accept no guidebooks, handbooks, compilations, websites, or other such fluff. I go by what is in the comics themselves, as those are primary canon, and all others are secondary canon at best. Or to put it in plainer English -- if the index contradicts the actual page content, the page content wins. This is silly. Nothing would be 'official' enough then. You make claims to Iron Fist's seeming invincibility...you should then give credence to the fight I've mentioned and other things like the two stalemates (that I know of) he's had with DD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists You're all a bunch of meanies. I am going to take my long-cherrished, fictional beliefs and going home. Oh, wait a minute... I am at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Scans of a section of the Cap/Iron Fist fight (to which I am referring): http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capif26zj.jpg http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capif31dn.jpg http://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capif43xd.jpg Note now the internal monologue of Danny specifically makes it plain this is exhausted Iron Fist. (Actually, if you look at the third scan, it's exhausted and so dizzy he can barely stand Iron Fist.) Note also the internal monologue of Cap specifically making it plain that Iron Fist was initially holding back. Note that even with all the handicaps that Iron Fist is taking, they're stalemating... until the end, where only the Mighty Shield keeps Cap from being pulp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists This is silly. Nothing would be 'official' enough then. ... except, of course, the actual comics themselves. What's "silly" is your refusal to actually listen to what I am saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists I ain't believin' this until I see it(*), and in order for me to see it, you'll have to be a little more precise on where I *can* see it other than "it's somewhere in Captain America volume 1." (Seeing as how the v1 run of the CAPTAIN AMERICA comic has, what, over 350 issues?) (*) And no, this is not -- that's *NOT* with a capital "NO", for people who refuse to pay attention -- an accusation that you're lying. It's an accusation that I think you're remembering it wrong. i.e. -- that you are mistaken. (And hey, given that you can't remember even *vaguely* what issue # it was, I think I'm not entirely off the rails re: suspecting that your memory of this issue is something less than perfect.) Well, whatever, I don't 'remember it wrong' (more sillyness). My comics all sit in storage untouched in years, I honestly haven't read a series in ten years (except for the restarted Thor and the Busiek/Perez Avengers run), but I can remember that Cap beat Iron Fist. Now do I remember the exact moves they used and such...no, but Cap winning I can remember. Specific details and dialogue no, results yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists ... except, of course, the actual comics themselves. What's "silly" is your refusal to actually listen to what I am saying. Don't start with the 'not listening to me', schtick. Jeez. By saying 'nothing' is official with you, it's because you don't seem to be accepting any of Iron Fist's out and out 'jobs' and you remove current (there's no way that they've read any of the comics, also, right?) stats from the company that owns the characters. I suppose you also don't accept any rpg stats either, since they've all pretty much listed Cap's fighting skills as superior as well (I guess they don't read the comics, too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Scans of a section of the Cap/Iron Fist fight (to which I am referring): http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capif26zj.jpg http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capif31dn.jpg http://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capif43xd.jpg Note now the internal monologue of Danny specifically makes it plain this is exhausted Iron Fist. (Actually, if you look at the third scan, it's exhausted and so dizzy he can barely stand Iron Fist.) Note also the internal monologue of Cap specifically making it plain that Iron Fist was initially holding back. Note that even with all the handicaps that Iron Fist is taking, they're stalemating... until the end, where only the Mighty Shield keeps Cap from being pulp. Welp, that's it then...debate over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists By the way I noticed there's no love for USAgent. Not that I came blame anyone. He's been written very inconsistently. Originally' date=' he was tough enough to defeat Captain America and easily beat down Wolverine (but everyone did back in the day). Since then he has become a whipping boy for every b-list villian.[/quote'] He's the perfect candidate for inconsistent writing alright. In his first appearances, he was easily outmatching Cap to the point of Cap being bewildered as to how he was ever going to even hurt him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists :confused: You REAALLY have not seen much of Cap. Actually ... I have over a hundred issues of his book, plus about twice of that in Avengers ... Still don't see it. He's a good fighter, but I wouldn't place him in the top. Heck, I'd easily rate Wolvie above him. Now, if you were asking me who the greatest tactician in the Marvel Universe is? That would be Cap in #1 hands down. Like I said ... I actually like Cap. But I just don't see where everyone's getting the fact that his unique style is rated so high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Don't start with the 'not listening to me'' date=' schtick. Jeez. By saying 'nothing' is official with you, it's because you don't seem to be accepting any of Iron Fist's out and out 'jobs' [...'] Actually' date=' no, it's not official enough for me. I accept no guidebooks, handbooks, compilations, websites, or other such fluff. I go by what is in the comics themselves, as those are primary canon, and all others are secondary canon at best.[/quote'] How the heck you read this and got 'nothing is official with me' out of it, I want to know. Since you seem to need it very very carefully explained, let me try and get it across again: * I don't accept "handbooks" * I don't accept websites * I don't accept 'ranking tables' on websites * I don't accept anything EXCEPT WHAT IS ACTUALLY PUBLISHED IN THE COMICS THEMSELVES. * (add) I don't accept RPG stats either, unless we're talking about characters who are RPG characters. (i.e. -- I accept Defender's stats as being Defender's, 'cause the dude is *from* an RPG game. I don't accept the stats of a comic book character converted to an RPG, 'cause no two companies ever convert them the same, and I have yet to see a conversion that exactly matched up with its 'parent' character.) Those, I accept. As to why I am not accepting your statement that 'Cap beat Iron Fist straight-up?' Because not only haven't I read it, I've never even *heard* of it, and I know a whole lot about Iron Fist that you don't know, by your own admission. Furthermore, you can't remember exactly where you saw it or when, which makes me doubt that you can remember exactly *what* you saw either. If you can tell me where the comic is, so I can go scrounge a peek at it, I will. Until then, you don't get all your declarative statements taken as simple Gospel. At least I went to the trouble of finding scans to back up mine. Not to mention that I find your "debate" style of accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being ignorant of even the basics about Captain America to be offensive and lacking maturity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Actually ... I have over a hundred issues of his book, plus about twice of that in Avengers ... Still don't see it. He's a good fighter, but I wouldn't place him in the top. Heck, I'd easily rate Wolvie above him. Now, if you were asking me who the greatest tactician in the Marvel Universe is? That would be Cap in #1 hands down. Like I said ... I actually like Cap. But I just don't see where everyone's getting the fact that his unique style is rated so high. Should we get into how Cap has done one-on-one with Wolvie? Perhaps if you better explain how you're looking at him. Are you saying that he's not necessarily an awesomely skilled martial artist, but he's just an incredibly smart fighter? Are you saying that, one-on-one, the other great MA's just outclass Cap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Well' date=' whatever, I don't 'remember it wrong' (more sillyness). My comics all sit in storage untouched in years, I honestly haven't read a series in ten years (except for the restarted Thor and the Busiek/Perez Avengers run), but I can remember that Cap beat Iron Fist. Now do I remember the exact moves they used and such...no, but Cap winning I can remember. Specific details and dialogue no, results yes.[/quote'] Jeff, it's going to take more than a vague memory of an issue you admit not having read in years, and can't even guess at the # of, before I will accept the evidence of my own memory as being wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Should we get into how Cap has done one-on-one with Wolvie? In CAPTAIN AMERICA ANNUAL #8, a copy of which sits within ten feet of my computer terminal at home, they were very evenly matched for several pages, claws vs. shield, until their fight was interrupted by the arrival of the Over-Rider and TESS-One. Have they had any other fights of note? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Are you saying that' date=' one-on-one, the other great MA's just outclass Cap?[/quote'] A few of them, yes. Not all of them. Note that 'I think so-and-so can beat Cap' is *not* the same statement as 'I think anybody can beat Cap'. (add) I will disagree with Sketchpad to this extent -- in pure skill, I put Logan below Cap, and some others. Logan has won a lot of his fights via sheer cockroach durability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Bah ... Forbush Man takes #1 hands down! I let my list stand ... and I agree with Chuck about Fist. In all honesty, I don't see too many people taking on Fist and walking away ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Wolverine is the new Worf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists well, Cap's had over a thousand appearances in comic books, and I'd be surprised if IF has shown up in 300. One caveat, of course, is whether a character's level of ability varies outside of their own book, and how much it tends to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.