Marvel's Best Martial Artists

[levi]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

...Crossbones is a sneaky bastich' date=' but I don't think he would make the top 10 in an arena match...[/quote']

 

In the Captain America series called Ice, Crossbones lays a beating on Daredevil. Now this is before Daredevil's rise to popularity and after having fought Cap earlier the same day, but between this and him giving Cap all he could handle more than once, I think it qualifies him as Top Ten material. The only reason I could see giving him a lower rating is that he was named Crossbones only because he worked for the Red SKULL. >< >< BLECH!!>< ><

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

1. Karnak. Almost like a non cosmic-level Karate Kid.

2. Mantis Alien Kung Fu.

3. Iron Fist- He had to beat a dragon bare-handed to get the iron fist. He did this at the age of nineteen. His star fell in the eyes of most writers, so people have forgotten how good he was intended to be.

4. Captain America.

5. Shang Chi. Stick.

6. Daredevil. Echo. Elektra

7 . Black Panther.

8. Black Widow. Moon Knight. Night Thrasher. Batroc. Falcon.

9. Wolverine. He has skills, but he uses his claws and healing factor more.

10. Punisher. He can fight well, but his skill is more like Commando Training. he uses a lot of weapons and tricks to win. There is actually no reason why he is any better than Nick Fury, for that matter.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

more votes to tally! Woot!

[Dauntless]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

1. Shang-chi- Shang isn't just physically awesome, his technique is supposedly perfect. Moreover, he has some supranatural powers, like when he was able to tell that he was being mind scanned by Jean Grey

2. Stick- As Daredevil's original mentor he kicked DD's butt several times. Being a ghost probably helps. I don't think I ever remember DD beating him. Plus he can "mystically" see, so who knows what other ESP powers he has. I'd actually consider him a tie with Shang

3. Iron Fist- His mystical fist probably gives him the most wallop of any non-super-powered MA.

4. Taskmaster- He can copy anyone's moves perfectly, though he can't replicate any mystical powers like the Iron Fist or Shang Chi's abilities.

5. Stone- Another mentor of DD. He beat the bejeezus out of a group of the Hand once or twice.

6. Ogun- He beat Wolverine IIRC...and without any supernatural prowess

7. Captain America- Lots and lots of experience and training

8. Daredevil- When you've got Stick and Stone as senseis, it's hard not to be good.

9. Sabretooth- He can take on Wolverine without Adamantium claws or skeleton and still beat him.

10. Nick Fury- Like Cap, he's got loads and loads of experience...even more actually since he never went through a deep freeze in the Atlantic Ocean.

[Emerald Mask]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

1. Captain America

2.Shang Chi

3. Iron Fist

4. Black Panther. Beast

5. Batroc

6. Daredevil

7. Bullseye

8. Electra

9.Punisher

10. Puck

Right of the top of my head but it feels like I am forgeting somebody.

[levi]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Now Emerald Mask brings up a cool idea. Beast, like the other X-Men studies martial arts, mostly Ju-Jitsu and Aikido from what I've seen of the Beast. But I see him as relying more on his Strength, Agility and Intelligence than his martial skill in a fight.

Of course, who is to say where Intelligence ends and Skill begins. Still, I think he definitely qualifies more so than Spidey who hasn't had any formal martial training.

[Superskrull]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Hmm, I keep forgetting Puck. 'Course, nowadays he's superhumanly strong & durable but he used to just be short and violent. Maybe it's all those Alpha Flight stories that start out fun but quickly get painful to read over about 8 issues.

[Agent X]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Not so much...Dr. Strange got in one hit but then had to make with the magic to take down Mantis. This happened in Defenders vol. 1 #9 during the Avengers/Defenders War.

 

1. Mantis/Moondragon (they had the same training)

2. Cap

3. Shang Chi

4. Iron Fist

5. Black Panther

6. Daredevil

7. Black Widow/Falcon/Moon Knight

8. Nick Fury/Red Skull/Electra

9. Mockingbird/Night Thrasher

10.Punisher

Would you put Dr. Strange in the top 10 or 25 of martial artists? And he got a hit on Mantis who you put in as #1? And Mantis proves ineffectual in how many stories?

[Sketchpad]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Just curious ... when did Cap get some serious martial arts? Last that I knew, he might have Commando Training ... but can't see him having anything beside that. Did I miss an issue when received something more?

[Trained Chicken]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Regardless of what style of martial arts Captain America employs, he is the benchmark by which other fighters are judged. He is at least in the top 5, and I would say he is probably #1. No logic employed here; it's just how they write him.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Regardless of what style of martial arts Captain America employs' date=' he is the benchmark by which other fighters are judged. He is at least in the top 5, and I would say he is probably #1. No logic employed here; it's just how they write him.[/quote']

I just don't see it. Sure, he's a good fighter ... he even made my list. But I just don't see him that high up. If that's the case, there should be several others that should hit the list like Hawkeye (who was trained by Cap), US Agent (who has most of the same training) and Tony Stark (who's trained with Cap).

[Sketchpad]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

You know ... the other thing that bugs me about Cap is that, in most instances, I see him and Deathstroke on par, but Cap's allowed in this thread and Slade wasn't in the DC one ... it's not that I don't like Cap, he's actually a great character

[Hermit]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Just curious ... when did Cap get some serious martial arts? Last that I knew' date=' he might have Commando Training ... but can't see him having anything beside that. Did I miss an issue when received something more?[/quote']

 

Well, he used an Akido move on Aquarian (Whops, got the name wrong and had to edit) once, and I believe that was back in the 80's. Judo flips were used in issues older than that. He knows enough to adapt his style conciously. Cap once had to mimic Crossbones fighting style while masquerading as him. Cap's form of fighting is no one style imo. It has been described as "pure", and "unique".

[OddHat]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

In comic books even more than the real world (far more than in the real world), it's not the style that wins the fight, its the skill, speed, strength, fitness and mental toughness of the fighter that wins the fight. Captain America doesn't have a level of skill equal to that of someone like the Mandarin, but if the two were fighting without weapons, and innocent lives were in the balance, I'd write the fight so that Cap would win. Cap would not win on points, and he would not win on skill, but he has mental toughness, speed and raw strength, and those can trump skill when the chips are down. The injuries Mandarin would inflict might be terrible, but Cap will find a way to win.

 

So, yes, I'd say he'd deserve a spot in the top five.

[Agent X]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

I just don't see it. Sure' date=' he's a good fighter ... he even made my list. But I just don't see him that high up. If that's the case, there should be several others that should hit the list like Hawkeye (who was trained by Cap), US Agent (who has most of the same training) and Tony Stark (who's trained with Cap).[/quote'] I see it. I've read enough Marvel to see it. It's all over the Avengers, Captain America, and for old-timers like me - the stories in Marvel Team-UP and Marvel 2n1 with Cap teaming up with Spidey or the Thing. An earlier example I used was Cap's defeat of Aquarian, a guy with a "null" field around him. Cap used an Aikido thumb lock on him.

 

Cap is mighty. Just because he's white and not obsessed with East Asian philosophy doesn't change what's been written and drawn about him.

 

And Hawkeye is a very, very good HTH fighter.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Just curious ... when did Cap get some serious martial arts? Last that I knew' date=' he might have Commando Training ... but can't see him having anything beside that. Did I miss an issue when received something more?[/quote']

From what I have read, Cap was trained in Boxing, Jiu jutsu, and Karate. He synthesized his fighting style from these three standard forms and his gymnastics and acrobatic training. He also has known many many fighters of different styles. He's probably asked for pointers.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

You know ... the other thing that bugs me about Cap is that' date=' in most instances, I see him and Deathstroke on par, but Cap's allowed in this thread and Slade wasn't in the DC one ... it's not that I don't like Cap, he's actually a great character [/quote']

I disallowed Deathstroke in the DC thread because everyone in the "Worst Fight Thread" explained he was Spiderman level physically. If he was "merely" human perfection I'd have had no trouble.

[psm]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Just curious ... when did Cap get some serious martial arts? Last that I knew' date=' he might have Commando Training ... but can't see him having anything beside that. Did I miss an issue when received something more?[/quote']

 

According to his recant origin (I believe by Stern/Byrne in the late 70's) after receiving the super soldier formula he was trained by the top martial (including boxing and wrestling) artists in the free world. He supposedly continued his training during the war and after he was thawed. Kinda like how batman has mastered every known martial art while earning a phd in forsenics, biology, chemistry, electronics, stunt driving and obscure knowledge 101 before the age of twenty five. Hey, its comics.

 

Cap's style is definitely more influenced by boxing, judo and tae kwon do. You very rarely see him use any wrist locks, funky stances or pressure points. By the way, AgentX, good memory about the Aquarius bit. I think that happened in one of his annuals.

 

By the way I noticed there's no love for USAgent. Not that I came blame anyone. He's been written very inconsistently. Originally, he was tough enough to defeat Captain America and easily beat down Wolverine (but everyone did back in the day). Since then he has become a whipping boy for every b-list villian.

 

Here's my list:

 

1. Mantis (although I could never stand her)

2. Karnak (still not sure he should be on this list because of his powers)

3. Captain America

4. Black Panther (without gadgets), Shang Chi, Iron Fist, Daredevil, Wolverine, USAgent

5. White Tiger, Nomad, Tigra, Batroc, Elektra, Moon Knight, Sabertooth

6. Black Widow, Baron Zemo, Mr. Immortal

7. Hawkeye, Kitty Pryde, Punisher

 

Yeah, I know there should be one character per number but so many of them are interchangeable.

[Twilight]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

To the best of my knowledge, Karnak's powers aren't due to the Terrigen Mist like the rest of the Inhuman's are. I was always under the impression that he had the abilities he had because of intense martial arts training. His ability to find the weak spot in anything is simply insane amounts of Find Weakness.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Just checked the Marvel Universe: Avengers 2004 with Cap in it ... I'll grant you that he knows a few martial arts ... but, personally, I don't see him in the top 5. Maybe around 7 .. but there are others that I think are more trained and have a higher skill in their abilities. And no it's not because he's "white and not obsessed with East Asian philosophy" I just don't see it in the comics I've read him in ... and I've read quite a bit.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

I disallowed Deathstroke in the DC thread because everyone in the "Worst Fight Thread" explained he was Spiderman level physically. If he was "merely" human perfection I'd have had no trouble.

From everything I've read ... and I'm sure people will correct me if I'm wrong ... but Slade is no where near Spidey level. I would actually put him at the same level with Cap. In fact, that's a fight I'd be looking for if Marvel and DC did another crossover

[Chuckg]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Slade "Deathstroke" Wilson is metahumanly strong and fast. Not *as* fast or *as* strong as Spidey, but definitely above the 'peak human' Cap level.

 

He also recently picked up an almost Deadpool-level healing factor, so he's DQ'ed anyway.

[Starlord]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

So much of this is subjective. I can only try to go with the precedents I remember.

 

I have to put Mantis as #1, as far as purely human martial artists go. She was trained by the Priests of Pama in Kree martial arts refined for hundreds of thousands of years. In her "audition" for Avengers membership she hit Thor hard and precisely enough to floor him, and her "mantis grip" rendered Captain America unconscious in less than a minute.

 

After that it gets harder. Shang Chi fought beside Iron Fist, and once remarked that Iron Fist's "martial arts skills are very nearly the equal of my own." Iron Fist and Daredevil fought an extended duel that was pretty much a dead draw. OTOH Iron Fist battled Captain America and was clearly overmatched; as Fist put it, "his technique is basic, but his speed and power are incredible!" So, I'd be inclined to put Cap ahead of those others, with SC, IF and DD too close to call. Elektra is probably in that same class now, but I'd put the Black Widow a little below them.

 

What's the current definition of the Black Panther? Whether it's been explained as due to the "panther herb" or "panther spirit," he's been considered superhuman in his physical abilities in the past. Certainly his senses are far beyond human level.

 

Moondragon, I haven't seen enough of her martial arts (as opposed to her mental powers) to form an opinion. Wolverine is such a fanboy favorite that I'm reluctant to take any of his published exploits as definitive; but I've seen him pitted against clearly superior martial artists, where it was his healing factor that carried him through.

 

At this point I'll commit to a first-place rank to Mantis, with Captain America in second place due to his physical edge. Daredevil, Shang Chi, Iron Fist and Elektra get a third-place tie, with Black Widow fourth. The others I'll have to think about more.

 

EDIT: I'm not sure whether Karnak really belongs on this list. He may not have been exposed to the Terrigen Mist, but as an Inhuman he's clearly physically superhuman, as well as being the king of the Find Weakness ability in comics. I can't deny that he is a very skilled martial artist, though.

 

- Cap has defeated Mantis one-on-one in his own comic, she was disturbed because she had never been beaten by a male. On top of which Swordsman has commented that Cap is the greatest fighter he's ever seen and one would think he'd know Cap and Mantis pretty well. Even still, I think Mantis clearly qualifies as a superhuman martial artist anyway.

 

- Shang-Chi has beaten Iron Fist and Daredevil was awed by Shang-Chi's abilities when they teamed up. Shang-Chi also immediately deduced DD was blind by 'his movements'.

[Starlord]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

Don't let the hype fool you - she got punked' date=' in hand-to-hand combat, by none other than Dr. Strange.[/quote']

 

Darn, stole my other Mantis point.

[Starlord]

Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists

 

I love Shang Chi. Read a lot of Master of Kung Fu. I still give it to Captain America. Cap has used martial arts to take down Aquarian. Shang Chi consistently had difficulties with villains that Cap would eat for breakfast.

 

It's not Shang Chi's fault that his comic was trying to be a bit more realistic - but that means he has to pay the price and not be ranked #1 in my forthcoming list.

 

As I recall, they faced off in Cap's comic (ok, I got a lot of Cap comics) and both came out 'impressed' with the other.