radioKAOS Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Wasn't there a guy who trained Daredevil named 'Stick' or something? Was he blind and had a staff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerandir Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Yeah, in at least some versions of Marvel continuity that I've read, Stick was part of a monastic martial order that trained Daredevil after he was blinded. Also featured was Stone, a swordsman. I have no idea what their current status in continuity is, much less how they stack up with other MAs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radioKAOS Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Just saying, if he trained ole DD, he's got to be pretty good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists IIRC, Stick has beaten both Wolverine and Elektra like they were rented mules. (One at a time.) We're talking like watching a Green Beret pound on crippled infants, not an actual fight. So yes, Stick is *way* up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Here's a good short bio of Mantis, at least before events in Marvel comics in recent years (which have left the character a confusing mess): http://marvelite.prohosting.com/surfer/profiles/mantis.html I remember running into her in an Avengers when I was a kid. I didn't like her then either. The whole Celestial Madonna thing... Not to mention the history as a Prostitute, the bad art... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Wasn't there a guy who trained Daredevil named 'Stick' or something? Was he blind and had a staff? Yup, he's on my list actually, a ways back. He's right above Elektra and DD on my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Yup' date=' he's on my list actually, a ways back. He's right above Elektra and DD on my list.[/quote'] I didn't think about Stick. I do my best to ignore Elektra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Let's see. Based on martial arts ability only (skills) : 1. Shang Chi 2. Iron Fist 3. Ronin (New Avengers) 4. Captain America 5. Daredevil 6. Black Panther 7. Elektra 8. Batroc 9. Black Widow 10. Wolverine Like I said, I based that on skill levels. I still think Cap would win against any of the first three because of superior strength and stamina. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Well, this is not as close as the DC thread. Captain America is losing ground to Shang Chi each ballot it seems (sorry Hermit) Iron Fist however is gaining on Cap and leaving Black Panther behind. Here are the Current Results: Shang Chi Captain America Iron Fist Black Panther Daredevil Elektra Moon Knight Mantis Black Widow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Well, this is not as close as the DC thread. Captain America is losing ground to Shang Chi each ballot it seems (sorry Hermit) Iron Fist however is gaining on Cap and leaving Black Panther behind. Here are the Current Results: Shang Chi Captain America Iron Fist Black Panther Daredevil Elektra Moon Knight Mantis Black Widow It'd be interesting to do a matchup based on the current top 10s between DC and Marvel. Lady Shiva vs Shang-Chi Richard Dragon vs Captain America Batgirl III vs Iron Fist Batman vs Black Panther Bronze Tiger vs Daredevil Black Canary vs Elektra Conner Hawke vs Moon Knight Nightwing vs Mantis Wildcat vs Black Widow I like a lot of these matchups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Some have remembered Mandarin; no one yet remembered his kid, Temujin. He punched chunks out of Iron Man's armor! Yowza! Someone else mentioned Gamora also, who should be included. Isn't Mantis plant life now, like a cosmic Poison Ivy? Thus the list: 1) Gamora, the deadliest woman in the universe (and her sidekick Sodom too) 2) Stick, eyeball corner socket 3) Karnak, who unfortunately gets head shot on 3-9 on 3d6 4) Temujin, who declined to use the Mandarin's rings in a fight with Iron Man 5) Mantis, unless she's being all cosmic and doesn't get to play anymore 6) Captain America, because nothing motivates you to learn to fight like Nazis 7) Elektra, seeing your parents gunned down motivates almost as well as Nazis 8) Iron Fist, parents gunned down then fed to wolves, learned martial arts 9) Shang Chi, whose father is so evil they named a mustache after him 10) Daredevil, sometimes a ninja, sometimes a pugilist, maybe he's a puja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Some have remembered Mandarin; no one yet remembered his kid, Temujin. He punched chunks out of Iron Man's armor! Yowza! Someone else mentioned Gamora also, who should be included. Isn't Mantis plant life now, like a cosmic Poison Ivy? Thus the list: 1) Gamora, the deadliest woman in the universe (and her sidekick Sodom too) 2) Stick, eyeball corner socket 3) Karnak, who unfortunately gets head shot on 3-9 on 3d6 4) Temujin, who declined to use the Mandarin's rings in a fight with Iron Man 5) Mantis, unless she's being all cosmic and doesn't get to play anymore 6) Captain America, because nothing motivates you to learn to fight like Nazis 7) Elektra, seeing your parents gunned down motivates almost as well as Nazis 8) Iron Fist, parents gunned down then fed to wolves, learned martial arts 9) Shang Chi, whose father is so evil they named a mustache after him 10) Daredevil, sometimes a ninja, sometimes a pugilist, maybe he's a puja. Puja ooh and Karnak's Head Shot joke was good too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psm Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Honestly, I don't know how to answer this question. In the sense of pure technique, Mantis, Shang-chi, Iron Fist and White Tiger would lead the list easily. However, when you include enhanced characters like Captain America, and Black Panther it gets a little murky. Characters like that have above human strength, endurance, reaction timing, agility, physical resistance along with superb fighting skills. I don't think Cap can even get winded. Its like pitting a highly trained fighter unarmed against a grizzly bear. It's just not a fair fight or a fair comparison. So I need a little more clarification on what we are judging on. Is it technique or who would win in a fight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Three's the Beauty of it, it's not science it's a poll! Simply put down your 10 favorites and I'll tally them! To tell the truth I'm looking for overall score. This would be "If they had a single elimination tournament how would you place them"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Captain America is getting short-changed here on "style" points. I know he wears a flag-suit but he's still depicted as the master of martial arts, just not any East Asian philosophy that some folks would lump in with it. Shang Chi is getting lots of points for "looking the part" but he just simply doesn't rate over Captain America if you've read the stories - unless things have changed in the last ten years or so. Iron Fist is losing points for having a gimmick and for being white but he's trained just as hard and long as Shang Chi and has been exposed to just as much and likely more East Asian mysticism. Karnak is losing points for evidently being more obscure than I realized he was. The guy abstained from the Terrigen Mists and chose to hone his martial arts to the point that he can sense weaknesses in just about anything. He can tussle with the Thing with the kind of martial arts he has without an Iron Fist OR a one-of-a-kind Shield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Mantis, whom I remember better from the 2nd run of the Silver Surfer series. Elektra's level of ability is inconsistent. Sometimes she's just on par with Daredevil, other times she's pulling ninja mind control tricks and toying with the Punisher. Shang Chi should make it into the top 3, since he's fairly consistently shown to be one of the best if not the best. Moondragon's skill level is just a shade below Mantis. White Tiger Iron Fist Captain America--I know he studied judo, boxing and wrestling during WW2, I'm not really aware when he found the time to study the other dozen arts he seems to know. Taskmaster Ronin Daredevil Silver Samurai there are lots of "experts", a bunch of "masters" and a handful of "grandmasters" in the MU--my definitions would be expert=1st to 5th degree black belt or equivalent; master= 6th to 9th degree or equivalent; grandmaster=10th to 12th degree or equivalent(as good as it can get) It gets very subjective, because I think a lot of the best guys have never really been matched up against each other--would love to see an Elektra/Mantis story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyendasky80 Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists er' date=' Eye? Bronze Tiger is DC unless there's someone else you meant.[/quote'] Uh oh, get the paddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superskrull Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists One of the real problems with the Marvel stuff is how many awesome martial artists are dead. Therefore, I shall give two lists. One for the living and one for the dead and/or theoretically alive. The Living Masters of Butt-whoop 1: Captain America, he's got that awesome track record, after all 2: Shang Chi, 'cause he's gotta be tough with a dad like Fu Manchu Iron Fist, 'cause K'un L'un is THE place for traditional Chinese wire-fu skills The Cat, 'cause Shang Chi says he's just that good. Heck, Deadpool is a drooling fanboy of his. Oh, and he's a kung fu-using thief, which is vastly amusing to me 3: Daredevil, Crossbones, Electra, Wolverine, Black Panther -all real good, none of these guys can consistently beat Cap, though and Iron Fist beat the Panther like a drum a few years ago. 4: Black Widow,Batroc, Nick Fury, Red Skull, Nomad, Night Thrasher, Baron Zemo II (he got pretty darn good during his Citizen V days)- all can be worn down by mooks faster than those higher on the list, all have a good showing against those higher on the list but just don't seem to pull out the win. 5: Punisher -he's really good at HTH but likes to shoot people a lot more 6: Silver Samurai, most of the Chaste (the not-dead ones), Mandarin, (he's just not whipping out the HTH anymore, so he's probably gone to seed, needs to spend 6 months in the woods training) 7: Zaran, Black Widow (blond replacement one) -she's pretty good but just doesn't impress me 8: Machete, Kitty Pryde -she's always seemed kinda sloppy in her butt-kicking, relies on her phasing, depower her and she'd probably improve greatly, and yeah, I know how little that makes sense 9: The Bengal -he was pretty good but he seems to be less of a threat after you fight him once & the Vietnam origin is pretty played out these days 10: Razorfist -of course he's dangerous, and yeah, he knows kung fu, but he loses major points for being crazy enough to replace his hands with swords and he's always getting punked lesser stuff 11: any supervillain who's shtick is HTH and wears spandex, also those martial arts lieutenants that litter the pages of Masters of Kung Fu & Deadly Hands of Kung Fu 12: Hand ninja -these guys are like Pringles, crunch all you want, they'll make more, often most deadly when encountered in groups of less than 4 There's no ranking for these guys as they are all talked up a lot but only showed up a few times before dying on us or worse, only seem to smack around the main character and yell at them for being screw-ups (yeah I'm looking at you, Stick) Midnight- trained alongside Shang Chi, dies in first appearance but seems to be really good at HTH. should have avoided fighting way up off the ground , cause he falls and breaks his neck when his cape catches on something, later revived by Kree as cyborg clone called Midnight Sun who whomps on Silver Surfer a while before losing, I think he's supposed to be in Attilan currently, along with Star Thief III (who we never saw again, either) Kirigi- repeatedly resurrected master ninja of the Hand, currently incinerated, I think Stick- I know he dies at least once during that whole dead Electra/reborn Electra thing, but he's like some wierd martial arts hobo or something and crawls outa the gutter when you aren't expecting him The Chaste (Stone , Shaft, Wing, Claw, Star, Hammer , Flame and all those students they go through when they show up) Challenger- old Timely guy, a little like Mr Terrific IIRC, he popped up in second most recent She-Hulk comic, the one that ran 12 issues Mantis- she's awesome in HTH except when she isn't and I don't like her 'cause she's a pet character of Englehart Yoshida Shingen- he was badass, he stabbed a bokken through Wolverine and later got stabbed by him in that 80's Miller miniseries Ogun- supernatural ninja master who popped up in that execrable Kitty Pryde & Wolverine miniseries. Oddly, he's not a member of the Hand. He is mostly dead though, but sometimes pops up as a ghost long enough to cause bad miniseries to happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Captain America--I know he studied judo, boxing and wrestling during WW2, I'm not really aware when he found the time to study the other dozen arts he seems to know. It always seemed to me that when he wasn't practicing on his own, fighting supervillains in hand to hand, he was training the Avengers. A lot of times it was off panel, but the running gag seemed to be Cap saw a good work out and practice like Scotty from ST:toS saw Technical manuals. From a Champions perspective, Cap probably would be seen as a bit of a nightmare character to motivate sometimes.. GM: "It's a slow day at the Avenger's HQ. Crime has been low and..." Player of Cap: "My character works out. He'll study those tapes of that guy we fought last week then work out on his Akido. That turned out to be useful." GM: "Err... fine. Now, the next day, you?" Player of Cap: "Is there an emergency?" GM: "No. Perhaps you should patrol?" Player of Cap: "Nah. That's more Spidey's gig. Everyone comes to cap with their problems eventually, and my DNPCs haven't rolled up. I know, he'll work out." GM: *grumbling* "You ARE on a team, you know? You might want to have your character do something... I don't know, social?" Player of Cap: "You're totally right. I'm sorry." GM: *Smiling* "Good. Now what?" Player of Cap: "I make -them- work out with me. Don't want the team to get soft..." *Sound of GM thumping head against table* (I exagerate... but let's face it, the man is dedicated to a fault) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Indeed. Part of the reason the GM liked Hawkeye so much - he got Cap out into the world on occaision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superskrull Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists No kidding, Hermit. How many opening shots of Cap in the Avengers comics have him working out in their equivalent of the Danger Room? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Indeed. Part of the reason the GM liked Hawkeye so much - he got Cap out into the world on occaision. Clint: Steve, you gotta come with me there's this crazy new invention I think you'd be interested in. Steve: ? Really? A new chainmail? Perhaps, some new fighting technique? Clint *Takes Steve to a bar*: They're called 'Women' Steve; go introduce yourself, you might like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Actually, IIRC, Clint made sure to *not* take Cap along when it was ladies' night at the bar, because every time he did, he was left alone with his drink while all the girls clustered around his hunky friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists There are so many to include, but I hate ties. I probably should have included more villains but no one else sprang to mind. Crossbones is a sneaky bastich, but I don't think he would make the top 10 in an arena match. I don't know The Cat; where's he from? I wanted to include She-Hulk, because she went through Gamora-training and has maintained it. I left out the feral family (Wolverine, Sabertooth, X-23) for the same reason I didn't include the Griffin; aggressiveness and agility don't make you a martial artist. I probably should have made room for Black Panther, cuz' he's a bad mother****** (hush your mouth!) Until recently I didn't even know what genitalia Ronin had, let alone fighting ability. I would have liked to have included the Daughters of the Dragon, but that would have been a blatant feminist ploy. They are good but not top 10 good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Re: Marvel's Best Martial Artists Don't let the hype fool you - she got punked' date=' in hand-to-hand combat, by none other than Dr. Strange.[/quote'] Not so much...Dr. Strange got in one hit but then had to make with the magic to take down Mantis. This happened in Defenders vol. 1 #9 during the Avengers/Defenders War. 1. Mantis/Moondragon (they had the same training) 2. Cap 3. Shang Chi 4. Iron Fist 5. Black Panther 6. Daredevil 7. Black Widow/Falcon/Moon Knight 8. Nick Fury/Red Skull/Electra 9. Mockingbird/Night Thrasher 10.Punisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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