Hermit Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Re: Re: Another thought Originally posted by GestaltBennie Okay, if Steve agrees, I'm using this one. Scott Bennie Great! Wow, I had a useful thought... there goes my quota for the month Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Another thought Originally posted by Hermit Great! Wow, I had a useful thought... there goes my quota for the month Only two more days and you can have another one. Good thing you save them for the end of the month though. Wouldn't want to peak early. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 I want to know why Viper has all that nifty, mass-produced gear and the government doesn't. It is one of the great stumbling blocks in my use of these sorts of organizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberknight Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X I want to know why Viper has all that nifty, mass-produced gear and the government doesn't. It is one of the great stumbling blocks in my use of these sorts of organizations. The government actually does have "nifty, mass-produced gear". A CCPD (Campaign City Police Department) SWAT team with M-16's, a couple of M-203's, and a couple of snipers can put up a surprisingly effective showing against VIPER agent teams. If that equipment won't do the trick (and if it did, we wouldn't have comic books!), there's the government's own list organizations (PRIMUS comes to mind). If that's *still* not enough, there's the US military. An Abrams tank isn't a fun thing to fight, even for Viper's high-tech troopers, and it's even less so when it's being escorted / screened by infantry, precision-guided artillery, and close air support. That's why Viper doesn't 'just take over'. It's easier and cheaper to be the power behind the throne via blackmail and individual intimidation. It's also why Viper tends to fight via "Ambush and Evac"...If they stay around *too* long, that ponderous sledgehammer in olive drab will land on them. My $0.02US. YMMV Cyberknight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by Cyberknight The government actually does have "nifty, mass-produced gear". A CCPD (Campaign City Police Department) SWAT team with M-16's, a couple of M-203's, and a couple of snipers can put up a surprisingly effective showing against VIPER agent teams. If that equipment won't do the trick (and if it did, we wouldn't have comic books!), there's the government's own list organizations (PRIMUS comes to mind). If that's *still* not enough, there's the US military. An Abrams tank isn't a fun thing to fight, even for Viper's high-tech troopers, and it's even less so when it's being escorted / screened by infantry, precision-guided artillery, and close air support. That's why Viper doesn't 'just take over'. It's easier and cheaper to be the power behind the throne via blackmail and individual intimidation. It's also why Viper tends to fight via "Ambush and Evac"...If they stay around *too* long, that ponderous sledgehammer in olive drab will land on them. My $0.02US. YMMV Cyberknight Of course, then you have the ex-military Nest Leader who wants to field his own military force, using VIPER vehicles and equipment, but the Army's organization structure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberknight Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 I don't see a problem with a Viper Nest trying to set up a "Viper Army". It'd certainly give Our Heroes somthing to sweat over, and I have serious doubts about the Viper 'higher ups' letting such a thing come about, for several reasons. (Budgets, manpower, and physical space all pop to mind). Then again, the 1st Viper Mechanized Infantry Division might be an interesting idea. What would Viper do with it? How did they assemble that many men and vehicles, and train them? (BIG 'conspiracy hook') How would Viper justify the expense? (It's much more profitable to prey on a nation than to rule it. Notice that the Mafia makes a profit, and Uncle Sam runs at a deficit? ) Cyberknight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 Small problem - VIPER builds a force like that to do anything, the US Army would probably find out about it. Or worse, the US Air Force. Though anti-tank helicopter forces might raise hell with massed VIPER mecha as well. There's also the problem of sheer numbers. Since this is a comic-book reality, there are all sorts of gimmicks you can use to bypass these problems: Discovery by the US military? Holographic projectors to disguise the construction sites. Or covert computer taps into the satellite surveillance systems to create false images of the sensitive areas. Anti-tank helicopters? Special flight Suppression gimmicks: net projectiles to entangle rotors, heavy-gravity rays, or metallic particle fog to clog engine air intakes. Do you mean sheer numbers of opponents? That's what VIPER ultra-tech super weapon equalizers are for. How about a focussed EM pulse weapon that fries all the electronics in a modern army's vehicles, targetting systems and communications? Or if you meant sheer numbers of VIPER units, individual Nests could construct their contribution, and those units could link up later. IIRC, the 4E VIPER sourcebook featured a plan by VIPER to build an army to conquer the newly-liberated but still vulnerable Eastern European countries. Again, in a comic-book reality, this threat can be made credible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden Discovery by the US military? Holographic projectors to disguise the construction sites. Or covert computer taps into the satellite surveillance systems to create false images of the sensitive areas. Anti-tank helicopters? Special flight Suppression gimmicks: net projectiles to entangle rotors, heavy-gravity rays, or metallic particle fog to clog engine air intakes. Do you mean sheer numbers of opponents? That's what VIPER ultra-tech super weapon equalizers are for. How about a focussed EM pulse weapon that fries all the electronics in a modern army's vehicles, targetting systems and communications? Or if you meant sheer numbers of VIPER units, individual Nests could construct their contribution, and those units could link up later. And that's before you even consider the Orbital Mind Control Laser or the Weather Dominator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 On the Viper army: It wouldn't make a lot of sense trying to set up such a thing in New York or Millennium City. It might make a great deal of sense to set one up in certain parts of Africa, Asia, or Latin America. How could it be raised? Well, the good old "jungle camp" is traditional. Alternatively, a puppet government might do you some favours. In certain cases, the puppet's own army might change uniforms... Since Viper is a conspiracy, it's quite likely that any armies they control aren't called "The Viper Army". We've been a bit spoiled by the image of the agents in green and yellow. Most of Viper wouldn't be so obvious, IMHO. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 31, 2003 Report Share Posted May 31, 2003 That would depend. In the aforementioned Third World nation under VIPER influence (and, let's face it - if the Colombian drug cartels can do it, a non-incompetent VIPER doesn't even break a sweat in the process) the army might well bear VIPER insignia, as a message to all that VIPER is a force to be reckoned with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 Ah... the classics. Maybe the brain in the bottle will have an intelligent, talking gorilla as an employee. The ATOMIC BRAIN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Cyberknight The government actually does have "nifty, mass-produced gear". A CCPD (Campaign City Police Department) SWAT team with M-16's, a couple of M-203's, and a couple of snipers can put up a surprisingly effective showing against VIPER agent teams. If that equipment won't do the trick (and if it did, we wouldn't have comic books!), there's the government's own list organizations (PRIMUS comes to mind). If that's *still* not enough, there's the US military. An Abrams tank isn't a fun thing to fight, even for Viper's high-tech troopers, and it's even less so when it's being escorted / screened by infantry, precision-guided artillery, and close air support. That's why Viper doesn't 'just take over'. It's easier and cheaper to be the power behind the throne via blackmail and individual intimidation. It's also why Viper tends to fight via "Ambush and Evac"...If they stay around *too* long, that ponderous sledgehammer in olive drab will land on them. My $0.02US. YMMV Cyberknight On a battlefield you have a point. But Viper equipment seems more maneuverable and just all around better for city combat and quick strikes. Primus had the Ironguard units and what appeared to be, for the most part, fairly conventional gear beyond that. Viper's not just a paramilitary organization, it is a criminal organization that seems to have technology that police officers and the military would love to have. So, my question IMO still stands. Why do they have all this stuff that I think law enforcement and the military would love to have and don't seem to? To the point: Why wouldn't a Silver Avenger want to have a personal jet pack or sky cycle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koshka Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 I'd like to see more of the "Day in the Life" stuff -- maybe reusing the character of Corporal Mike Potts from the 4E book? Show us why people join VIPER, how they're trained, how you maintain a chain of command when half your underlings would love to take your place. And tied in with that -- I've always assumed the last thing VIPER would ever be known for is their retirement plans, but how do they deal with agents who can no longer go on missions? Putting someone up against the wall because the Side Effects on that experimental weapon he was assigned left him a paraplegic isn't going to improve morale. Or an even worse case scenario from VIPER's viewpoint, one of their top researchers starts to develop Alzheimers and can't keep track of who's "safe" to talk to, so he's blabbing everything to anyone and anything. Might there be a few "retirement communities" or "assisted living centers" that are completely VIPER-staffed and ex-VIPER inhabited, for those who know too much but were loyal snakes in their active careers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Koshka [bAnd tied in with that -- I've always assumed the last thing VIPER would ever be known for is their retirement plans, but how do they deal with agents who can no longer go on missions? Putting someone up against the wall because the Side Effects on that experimental weapon he was assigned left him a paraplegic isn't going to improve morale. Or an even worse case scenario from VIPER's viewpoint, one of their top researchers starts to develop Alzheimers and can't keep track of who's "safe" to talk to, so he's blabbing everything to anyone and anything. Might there be a few "retirement communities" or "assisted living centers" that are completely VIPER-staffed and ex-VIPER inhabited, for those who know too much but were loyal snakes in their active careers? [/b] Shades of The Village from The Prisoner... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSkip Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 The Viper Millitary? naaaah just convince the CIA to make the US do it. Cheaper and no need for retirement plans!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 Small problem - VIPER builds a force like that to do anything, the US Army would probably find out about it. Or worse, the US Air Force. Though anti-tank helicopter forces might raise hell with massed VIPER mecha as well. There's also the problem of sheer numbers. No one said they would have to attack America with it. There are plenty of countries out there with nothing close to America's firepower. In fact: there are first world countries who'se entire military arsenal has a total value of less than one aircraft carrier. Viper could shoot for a country we're not interested in and, with the right political climate, avoid a full scale American interdiction (though the CIA might employ supers...). We ignore coups and civil wars all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden How about a focussed EM pulse weapon that fries all the electronics in a modern army's vehicles, targetting systems and communications? This is why our military equipment (naval vessels, tanks, fighters, etc...) have redundant electronics. We've thought of it. EMP isn't new or high-tech. What that would do to a civillian area or a local police department, however, is another matter. However, most urban areas have at least one department with a dispatch center that has redundant systems (doesn't help the squad cars much, but you can call the feds), and federal buildings invariably have a redundant comm system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X On a battlefield you have a point. But Viper equipment seems more maneuverable and just all around better for city combat and quick strikes. Primus had the Ironguard units and what appeared to be, for the most part, fairly conventional gear beyond that. Viper's not just a paramilitary organization, it is a criminal organization that seems to have technology that police officers and the military would love to have. So, my question IMO still stands. Why do they have all this stuff that I think law enforcement and the military would love to have and don't seem to? To the point: Why wouldn't a Silver Avenger want to have a personal jet pack or sky cycle? Because VIPER is primarily balanced against UNTIL, not PRIMUS (and UNTIL does have skycycles and such). Not a good answer, but an accurate one, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Peregrine Because VIPER is primarily balanced against UNTIL, not PRIMUS (and UNTIL does have skycycles and such). Not a good answer, but an accurate one, I think. Sounds about right. That needs changing in the next book. I want a satisfactory explanation why every 1st world country isn't running around with the equivalent of Viper Tech and if someone wants to say Viper has more financial resources I will gag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Well, VIPER has more financi... just kidding I don't know, I can see kind of a hard choice here. Not explaining things like this can make it all the more implausible, but then again... if you spend a whole chapter into the fiscal matters and so on of an organization, it feels like you've been cheated of the cool stuff. This is a super heroic genre after all. Maybe hints on running VIPER with different Age 'feels' might be a good idea as well. A Golden or Silver Age Viper (Whatever the actual time the game is set in) might be much different from a Bronze or Iron Age one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Sounds about right. That needs changing in the next book. I want a satisfactory explanation why every 1st world country isn't running around with the equivalent of Viper Tech and if someone wants to say Viper has more financial resources I will gag. Er, New Zealand has a federal budget of 16.9 billion and allots 1.4 billion annually to the NZDF, which has 13,000 personnel and 3.2 billion in military assets (meaning hardware). The combined resources of the mob families in the US alone, let alone Viper, outpaces the federal budget of NZ. Bill Gates could underwrite their national budget for three years running, or their military budget for fifty years running. Actually, with his profit margin he could fund their military without losing a dime on an ongoing basis (the amount of money the man gives to charity annually is mind boggling). Viper - an international organization with extensive criminal empires could easily outpace a country like NZ, which is in the first world. Its easy for Americans to lose perspective when a single aircraft carrier costs 4.5 billion. Consider this: in addition to being able to outpace countries like NZ in military spending Viper doesn't have a territory or people to defend. Nor do they have to run social programs beyond pension and healthcare benefits. They can dedicate the vast majority of their budget to operations and development. Go ahead, gag all you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted June 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 It's the age old problem. Provide more realistic details to a four-color simulation, and you end up making it interesting. Push the genre conventions to its logical conclusions, however, and it breaks. My feeling is we should try to answer those questions, but not get so wrapped up in the simulation that three years down the road, someone like Mutants and Masterminds will come out with their own organization book and everyone will love it more than VIPER because "VIPER got so bogged down by the petty details that they forgot how much fun it is for superheroes to slug it out with a horde of agents." My hope is we;'ll find a middle ground, and give the GM enough tools to easily shape the organization the way he wants. Scott Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSkip Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 i think a good set of guidelines like suggested above would be nice. almost like a 4 part (one for each color) book from true grit to they are the bad guys! what do I care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man Er, New Zealand has a federal budget of 16.9 billion and allots 1.4 billion annually to the NZDF, which has 13,000 personnel and 3.2 billion in military assets (meaning hardware). The combined resources of the mob families in the US alone, let alone Viper, outpaces the federal budget of NZ. Bill Gates could underwrite their national budget for three years running, or their military budget for fifty years running. Actually, with his profit margin he could fund their military without losing a dime on an ongoing basis (the amount of money the man gives to charity annually is mind boggling). Viper - an international organization with extensive criminal empires could easily outpace a country like NZ, which is in the first world. Its easy for Americans to lose perspective when a single aircraft carrier costs 4.5 billion. Consider this: in addition to being able to outpace countries like NZ in military spending Viper doesn't have a territory or people to defend. Nor do they have to run social programs beyond pension and healthcare benefits. They can dedicate the vast majority of their budget to operations and development. Go ahead, gag all you want. Didja *hafta* use us? Oh wait. We're the best example by a mile. This is why when I develop my own supers world, I *will* find a way to increase our population by 2900%, just to get rid of that... However, NZ isn't the best of examples. We're only an independent nation because a) The British Empire terminated itself The US doesn't want another state and c) We don't like the Australians Incidently, this is why, when I created the super infrastructure for the ANZ area, I didn't have a govermental superagency. I just gave the superteams serious backing, and had one hero have enough financial power of their to do that kind of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by WhammeWhamme However, NZ isn't the best of examples. We're only an independent nation because a) The British Empire terminated itself The US doesn't want another state and c) We don't like the Australians Better be careful on B... Peter Jackson's beautiful cinematography has a lot of American movie goers going 'oooo... ahhhhh' Besides, ARGENT owns NZ in the Champions Universe... everyone knows that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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