lemming Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X So, my question IMO still stands. Why do they viper have all this stuff that I think law enforcement and the military would love to have and don't seem to? Well, the way I play this, is that VIPER doesn't have any safeguards for testing their weapons. I think they ship the R&D stuff to their expendable troops and see how it goes. The VIPER troops they want to keep, get the advanced, reliable stuff. Of course I loved the game Paranioa, so take this with a grain of salt. Anyone want a Cone Rifle? And I think the idea of a VIPER village would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Hermit Better be careful on B... Peter Jackson's beautiful cinematography has a lot of American movie goers going 'oooo... ahhhhh' Besides, ARGENT owns NZ in the Champions Universe... everyone knows that It wasn't that much of a joke. Acually, I had an idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Sounds about right. That needs changing in the next book. I want a satisfactory explanation why every 1st world country isn't running around with the equivalent of Viper Tech and if someone wants to say Viper has more financial resources I will gag. Since what you're attempting to do in this case is to work backward from an existing genre convention to formulate a justification for it, any explanation you come up with is likely to have an air of "rationalization." Still, the most reasonable explanation I've yet seen for this situation is the "Sci-Tech War" postulated by Sean Fannon in his High Tech Enemies supplement: governments, superagent groups and superheroes/villains recognize that the possession of advanced scientific knowledge constitutes real power, and are trying to acquire and control as much of it as possible. The more that technology gets spread around to the general populace, especially in a free society, the more people have access to it and the less strategically valuable it becomes. Certainly there are precedents in the real world: stealth aircraft, nuclear cannon shells and spy satellite imaging technology are closely guarded secrets, and have not replaced many similar weapons and devices in wider use despite being superior in many ways. It's not too hard to extrapolate this to having PRIMUS, an elite combat unit fighting the most dangerous opponents in the world, armed with blasters and forcefields while the majority of soldiers and police muddle through with slug throwers and Kevlar. VIPER, being itself an entirely secretive organization, already regulates the distribution of its technology very closely. Even then the number of supervillains in the Champions canon who owe their abilities to "appropriating" the best VIPER tech and heading for greener pastures is infamous. Of course this is just a rationalization, which may not work for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted June 1, 2003 Report Share Posted June 1, 2003 Originally posted by Koshka I've always assumed the last thing VIPER would ever be known for is their retirement plans, Ahh, well. Earlier versions of VIPER's history mention that a "labor organizer" was amongst the founding leaders of VIPER. Clearly, VIPER is unionised! OK, it's not the _best_ union, but, hey. Another view of the matter appeared in an episode of the Simpsons, when Homer was hired by a Bond-style mastermind named Hank Scorpio. Scorpio's organisation seemed to operate on rather New Age corporate principles... Then there's the Austin Powers films, and so on. OK, so all of this is silly. The actual situation, in other than humourous games, would probably vary. A scientist working for a front corporation might have a "normal" career, in many ways, even if they spent a certain amount of time working on a Death Ray in an underground base. Of course, if they "knew too much", it could be a little unfortunate. A grunt serving as an Agent in Africa is likely to have a career path resembling that of a Somali or Liberian militiaman. An agent in the US might spend a bit of time with VIPER, receive a payout, and be allowed to go without too much prejudice, if it can be safely assumed that they didn't know anything beyond what they needed to know. Or they might have to skip town with whatever cash they had got together. Whether or not they are pursued would depend on whether VIPER felt it was necessary. Clearly, anyone with a big mouth would be pursued. Over all, I would have most of the important bits of VIPER underground and working through front organisations. Most of VIPER wouldn't need to be aware they are members of VIPER. The bits that did would either be expendable grunts, who would need to be kept in the dark as much as possible, or committed conspirators who know what the price of treachery is. Or hapless dupes, who can be "retired" with a bullet. But then, when the Secret Master Plan comes to fruition, only the Secret Masters will be spared... Maybe working for VIPER isn't such a good idea after all. On the other hand, if you can't stop the Secret Master Plan, why shouldn't you take their money? Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden Since what you're attempting to do in this case is to work backward from an existing genre convention to formulate a justification for it, any explanation you come up with is likely to have an air of "rationalization." Still, the most reasonable explanation I've yet seen for this situation is the "Sci-Tech War" postulated by Sean Fannon in his High Tech Enemies supplement: governments, superagent groups and superheroes/villains recognize that the possession of advanced scientific knowledge constitutes real power, and are trying to acquire and control as much of it as possible. The more that technology gets spread around to the general populace, especially in a free society, the more people have access to it and the less strategically valuable it becomes. Certainly there are precedents in the real world: stealth aircraft, nuclear cannon shells and spy satellite imaging technology are closely guarded secrets, and have not replaced many similar weapons and devices in wider use despite being superior in many ways. It's not too hard to extrapolate this to having PRIMUS, an elite combat unit fighting the most dangerous opponents in the world, armed with blasters and forcefields while the majority of soldiers and police muddle through with slug throwers and Kevlar. VIPER, being itself an entirely secretive organization, already regulates the distribution of its technology very closely. Even then the number of supervillains in the Champions canon who owe their abilities to "appropriating" the best VIPER tech and heading for greener pastures is infamous. Of course this is just a rationalization, which may not work for you. With a little elaboration it would work for me. I would like it addressed in the book though. I am not that hard to please I just want it covered. Why, you shaved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Faster Combat I'd like some suggestions on ways to handle mass combat, the VIPER way. Some way to deal with 40-50 agents duking it out with a superhero team, without having to roll 40-50 times every phase, but without fully losing individual agent flavor or weapons variety. I love VIPER, and have used them in every campaign I've run. The 4th Ed VIPER sourcebook was one of the best, IMO. But it's hard to run scores of agents without bogging down the combat slower than normal. For sidebars: the flavor bits from the 4E book were great. My personal favorite was the CLOWN punching bags. Oh, and a list of possible things VIPER (as an acronym) stands for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted June 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Re: Faster Combat Originally posted by BoloOfEarth I'd like some suggestions on ways to handle mass combat, the VIPER way. Some way to deal with 40-50 agents duking it out with a superhero team, without having to roll 40-50 times every phase, but without fully losing individual agent flavor or weapons variety. I love VIPER, and have used them in every campaign I've run. The 4th Ed VIPER sourcebook was one of the best, IMO. But it's hard to run scores of agents without bogging down the combat slower than normal. That was the first thing I wrote when I did the initial VIPER draft for CNM two years ago. I consider a good tactics section the biggest thing we missed in the first book. Scott Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Originally posted by GestaltBennie Sorry. Viperia stays. That one's not up for a vote. :-) Though she may not quite be as you envision her. Scott Bennie I envision Viperia wielding an "Omega Destruction Rifle", but that's probably just the killer GM in me:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Why, you shaved! Yeah, but I think these new contact lenses reflect a little too much glare. When I noticed that I had accumulated enough posts to qualify for the "Cosmically Powerful" board title, I thought it was time to switch to an avatar who looked more "cosmic." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden Yeah, but I think these new contact lenses reflect a little too much glare. When I noticed that I had accumulated enough posts to qualify for the "Cosmically Powerful" board title, I thought it was time to switch to an avatar who looked more "cosmic." Well, you picked the right avatar then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberknight Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 A truly cruel GM would have Viperia not only weilding an Omega Destruction Rifle, but doing it wearing a Battle Bikini [tm]. Who'd notice the rifle? Cyberknight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_A Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Who's Viperia? I don't have the 4E book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Originally posted by Andrew_A Who's Viperia? I don't have the 4E book. Think an amoral Supergirl loyal to Viper. For some reason a lot of people didn't like her due to power level, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberknight Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Viperia's move-throughs were the stuff of legend in one campaign, at least. Particularly when one of our particularly innovative (and underhanded) Martial Artists managed to martial-throw her into the side of a very large building. Oh, the (super) Humanity! Cyberknight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Viperia, queen of the Naked Advantages. While 'star is correct that she only had a 60 Str, he neglects that she had Autofire: 5, Indirect, 0 End, Affect Desolid, AoE, and I think, Armor Piercing all as Naked Advantages. So, that was 5 Armor Piercing, AOE, Indirect, Affect Desolid, 12d6 attacks. 999 points of pure goodness. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Cyberknight, The post about the Battle Bikini and gun on Vipera made me laugh out loud. Thank you very much. You are officially a bad person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 On the subject of retirement plans, just look at what they did in the Man from UNCLE television series. Thrush agents got a clock when they retired which blew up and killed them. Which is why UNCLE never found any old Thrush agents. So theyu schemed a way to get an agent who was on the verge of retirement to betray his employers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 But... they weren't in a multipower, so they were legal. She paid her points for what she got. Oh, yeah, I wasn't complaining, I was warning. "Hey, there's that Viperia chick, heard she doesn't do more than 12 dice of damage." Wham. Wham. Wham. Wham. Wham. Thud. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Y'know, I forgot to mention the scope attachment and underslung Torc grenade* launcher for her Omega Destruction rifle...my bad:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 And that's Autofire x5 on everyone in an area. At 0 End. Indirect. ::shudder:: Fast bricks are damn scary. That summarizes why in my campaign she was relegated to a Secret Weapon/Thaw When Needed role. If the heroes ever got too close, the VIPER heirarchy fetched her out of deep freeze, dusted her off, and set her loose of the heroes. Along those lines, I'd like to see some VIPER protocols or "standards and practices". What does VIPER do when the heat gets to close? How does a nest handle superheroes (in or out of combat)? What happens when an agent turns traitor? I've always imagined a black binder or Nest Leader's Handbook that outlined how to run a nest. But then again, maybe that's too corporate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 My character, Thunder Dragon, just blocked her attack and then his counterstrike damage shield was set off. Didn't do much to her but she was so frustrated she focused on him and got hammered from behind by a descending move through. inches of velocity doubled for descent, velocity divided by 3, + STR damage. I believe the character had 30" of flight and a 60 Strength but it has been a long time. That would be, oh, 32 dice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberknight Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 I *do* hope that Thunder Dragon managed to Dive for Cover...then again, getting a face-full of Vi..err...never mind, I'll go take my meds now, and switch to decaff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Originally posted by Cyberknight I *do* hope that Thunder Dragon managed to Dive for Cover...then again, getting a face-full of Vi..err...never mind, I'll go take my meds now, and switch to decaff. Well, I guess the ref didn't use the area effect. Lucky me. Yeah, Viperia is a babe. I like Viperia. I think there should be more characters on scale in the game. When I saw that Lightning Bolts were supposed to do 4 to 6 dice of killing damage in 4th Edition I immediately was annoyed that in the description of a basic campaign you couldn't have a character who could throw a bolt of energy equivalent to a high-end lightning bolt. What comic books has everyone else been reading? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted June 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Originally posted by Prometheus That summarizes why in my campaign she was relegated to a Secret Weapon/Thaw When Needed role. If the heroes ever got too close, the VIPER heirarchy fetched her out of deep freeze, dusted her off, and set her loose of the heroes. Which was *precisely* the way she was meant to be handled.. Scott Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 If only wishes came true . From what I've read so far Scott it looks like you got a lot of work ahead of you . You also opened the Herophile/Pandors's box . Are you gong to be able to close it ? I look forward to your updates and teasers . You are going to keep us updated aren't you ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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