Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

[Dust Raven]

We've all talked about the Regeneration example power in the main rulebook. There are other examples as well, such as that for Instant Change. Steve Long as specifically stated (though I don't remember exactly where, so I can't quote him) that he is not responsible for the content in suppliments where a write up violates the core rules, but certainly he is responsible for such write ups he makes and publishes in the core book. Steve won't and to the best of my knowledge hasn't, answered any question about why this is an exception to the rules, rather than just making these exceptions Power individually. I'd still like to know why they are exceptions, and implications this makes for other such abilities.

 

For example: Can we, using the regeneration build as precendence, write up something like an EB, AE, 0 END, Presistant, No Range ability to create an aura of flame around a character? There is no Continuous on it, just as there is none on Regeneration, but Regen sets an example on how someone could easily call this a legal build, even though it clearly isn't.

 

Now, I'm not looking for "solutions" to the "problem" or methods on "fixing" the rules here. Just suggestions and speculations on why this exception exists and in what other ways this exception may be acceptible in other situations.

 

Any thoughts?

[pinecone]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

I don't think you'll ever be able to get there...I just use the powdered toat test...."No sir, I just don't like it" or "This rawks!".....

 

I personally get a little bothered by Hyper intense ruleyness...like buying a succor that only helps people your blasting....(to refer to annother thread)....at some point I prefer to just say "Thats sounds just fine" and roll some dice....

it can be very useful to know the whys of things when your making a ruling on the fly....but for me Instant change and regen Are still stand alone powers...I think its silly to try to build them as there currently "officially" are, but for someone else the current way is much better.....

 

I don't think "flavor" will ever become a mechanic that can be grabbed ahold of, it's just too personal...

[actingkeith]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Any thoughts?

 

It's called Legacy...

 

Regeneration has always been a power in Champions... always. So as people started trying to standardize and consolidate, Regeneration couldn't "go away" because it's a legacy.

 

Quit raking muck, you muck raker!

 

And you can't use Regeneration as a precedent for any perversions of the rules that suit your fancy. Your attempt to point out that Regeneration doesn't 'fit' is ridiculous because Regeneration is a power/rule unto itself.

 

Regeneration isn't broken. It doesn't violate any rules. It fits squarely within the rule for the power, Regeneration.

 

-k, feeling snippy

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

I think the bigger issue with Regeneration is the absence of a cap on how much could be healed. With no provision for reducing the "reset time" in the core rules in 5e (they were suggested in Fantasy Hero and are, I believe, in 5er), Regeneration as previously written, couldn't be shoehorned into Healing without some handwaving.

 

And the ability to Regenerate without a daily cap seems quite common in the source material (Wolverine, trolls, science fiction monsters), so leaving it out would have been a poor choice, in my opinion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

My take:

 

1. Regeneration exists in Champions, and everyone is more or less happy with it.

 

2. 5th edition sets about (to a degree) standardising things and is very keen on building stuff with powers, hence the whole talent section is costed (sometimes very dodgily) as advantaged and limited powers.

 

3. Regeneration sounds an awful lot like healing.

 

4. THEREFORE, in accordance with the above, regeneraion should be bought as a form of healing, BUT...

 

5. The cost doesn't work out, SO...

 

6. We need a fix.

 

The bizarre 'limitation' is the fix, meaning the cost works aout about right BUT

 

7. A lot of people feel unhappy.

 

I see two solutions, possibly:

 

1. Cost it right

 

2. Make it a seperate power

 

The way it is at present is just upsetting.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Any thoughts?

 

I think Regeneration and Healing have too much in common to be two seperate powers. And yet, they go about it two different ways. One seems to have a daily cap or a per/wound cap and the other seems to be how quickly can you go to near death and get back up.

 

Unfortuately, Regeneration is always going to be better than simple healing in the long haul. Healing is designed to speed recovery of taking wounds, but it will never be as effective as the same amount of Regeneration.

 

The points unfortuately prove it.

 

So why have both? Because Hero is modeling two different abilities. The ability to help your friend recover from injuries with a cure spell. And the ability to take horrendous amounts of damage, have the wounds close, bones knit and pop back into place, (limbs regrow and sometimes even come back from death) and the villian/monster smirks as if to say, "Is that all you got?"

[Sean Waters]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

The problem is that regeneration IN PRACTICE is rarely as useful or necessary as regeneration in theory thus the disconnect between the cost as is and the cost if you did it 'properly': in most 'super' games (where regeneration is most common) taking Body damage is a comparative rarity.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

It's called Legacy...

 

Regeneration has always been a power in Champions... always. So as people started trying to standardize and consolidate, Regeneration couldn't "go away" because it's a legacy.

 

Quit raking muck, you muck raker!

 

And you can't use Regeneration as a precedent for any perversions of the rules that suit your fancy. Your attempt to point out that Regeneration doesn't 'fit' is ridiculous because Regeneration is a power/rule unto itself.

 

Regeneration isn't broken. It doesn't violate any rules. It fits squarely within the rule for the power, Regeneration.

 

-k, feeling snippy

 

I tend to agree completely. Except for the part about where it violates the rules. It does. Blatantly and without shame. However, if there really is a "rule" that says "if you are making Regeneration, there is this exception..." it really should be printed in with the rest of the rules and not found fiddled about by players on a message board.

 

And if the exception is there only to make the final cost reasonable, it requires a seperate Power for it's basis, just like we have for Ego Attack (as opposed to buying an EB with BOECV and just saying "well, even though it doesn't have IPE, this particular writeup is considered to have it automatically.").

[Lucius]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

And the ability to Regenerate without a daily cap seems quite common in the source material (Wolverine, trolls, science fiction monsters), so leaving it out would have been a poor choice, in my opinion.

 

Which raises the question: Why in the world did they put a cap on healing in the first place?

 

So why have both? Because Hero is modeling two different abilities. The ability to help your friend recover from injuries with a cure spell.

 

Which it doesn’t model so well with a daily cap on it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has two heads and doesn’t see the need for a cap except when it’s chilly…

[OddHat]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Well, echoing some bits others have already posted:

 

Actual utility sometimes doesn't match price all that closely. Sometimes, we as GMs will bump the cost of a power up or down in our campaigns, based on our own views of cost, utility and balance.

 

Often we can't agree with other GMs on the merits of these tweaks, leading to endless debates.

 

In the case of Regeneration, Instant Change, and many talents and sample powers, Steve made a call, allowing "limitations" to grant advantages and otherwise tweaking costs system wide to match his own sense of balance.

 

As to how and if we could apply this in our own games, we already sometimes do. On a campaign specific basis, I don't mind the handwaves much; they allow genre simulation in a way that's often much simpler than jumping through hoops trying to do something strictly by the book. I like to keep them well doccumented for my players, but I don't worry much about them beyond that.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

I think although Regen and Healing basically are healing powers. They don't do it in similarly enough to warrant being the same power.

 

In a similar way we have multiple damage dealing powers (EB, HKA, etc...) and defense powers (FF, PD, etc....)

 

I think this is the clearest example of exactly why we shouldn't keep the trend of abstracting powers until they are all the same power.

 

Because Regen is bolted so much into Healing now, we can't have Regen (STR) or other Regen's that regenerate other characteristics. Regens that could just get a neat Adder/Advantage (Regen Drain Damage)

 

I am a big advocate of having more seperate powers (within reason) because it permits more closely tailored advantages/limitations that can target specific effects, instead of needing 3-5 limitations/advantages just needed to get to the baseline of the Power we are seeking (regardless of what specific situational advantages/limitations we need to add on top of those to actually get to what SFX/Power Effect we were looking for to begin with)

 

I almost think Damage Shield would be a good seperate Power for the same reasons. It takes a bunch of limitations and advantages to take some other power and get it to the point that you can even add the damage shield advantage. Make it a seperate power starting off at the baselines, give it a per d6 cost and go from there.

 

 

TB

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Which raises the question: Why in the world did they put a cap on healing in the first place?

 

Probably because the lack of a cap on Healing renders damage more or less meaningless.

 

Pl 1 "Ouch!, I took 8 BOD in that last fight. Now I'm down 12, and only have 3 left."

 

Pl2: "No problem. I cast my 3d6 Heal Bod once a turn until he's back to full. Once a turn won't leave me down any long-term END."

 

Repeat with every encounter, since there's no limit on how many times that Healing spell can bring the character up from negative BOD to full BOD. In games where death is suposedly a real possibility, you basicaly have to hit the characters hard enough that any single attack could be fatal.

 

You can do the same thing with a STUN effect (as noted previously) to make even a KO almost impossible.

 

I haven't played a ton of new game systems in the last 15 years or so, but it seems to me that every game has some limit on healing. d20 doesn't limit how much you can heal a day, but does limit how many spells you can cast in a day. Hero doesn't limit the number of times you can use your Healing spell, so it needs some other limit.

[Vondy]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

 

I haven't played a ton of new game systems in the last 15 years or so, but it seems to me that every game has some limit on healing. d20 doesn't limit how much you can heal a day, but does limit how many spells you can cast in a day. Hero doesn't limit the number of times you can use your Healing spell, so it needs some other limit.

 

If Hero were not a game that attempted to be universal I would agree with you. But, since it is "universal" I don't. Some genres require limits of one sort while other genres require limits of a different sort (or no such limits at all). As a result I think having such limits hard-coded into the system, as opposed to leaving them to the game master, is a mistake. Make the suggestion, sure, but more than that is innapropriate.

[Lucius]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

.

In a similar way we have multiple damage dealing powers (EB, HKA, etc...) and defense powers (FF, PD, etc....)

 

TB

 

Which leads to it's own set of problems.....is STR too cheap? Is Killing Attack underpriced/overpowerful? How DO you add various classes of damage together? Is armor visible by default?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Sometimes all these complications are enough to choke a palindromedary...

[Kristopher]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Probably because the lack of a cap on Healing renders damage more or less meaningless.

 

Pl 1 "Ouch!, I took 8 BOD in that last fight. Now I'm down 12, and only have 3 left."

 

Pl2: "No problem. I cast my 3d6 Heal Bod once a turn until he's back to full. Once a turn won't leave me down any long-term END."

 

Repeat with every encounter, since there's no limit on how many times that Healing spell can bring the character up from negative BOD to full BOD. In games where death is suposedly a real possibility, you basicaly have to hit the characters hard enough that any single attack could be fatal.

 

You can do the same thing with a STUN effect (as noted previously) to make even a KO almost impossible.

 

I haven't played a ton of new game systems in the last 15 years or so, but it seems to me that every game has some limit on healing. d20 doesn't limit how much you can heal a day, but does limit how many spells you can cast in a day. Hero doesn't limit the number of times you can use your Healing spell, so it needs some other limit.

 

 

Those are the implications of having healing magic in a setting. If the GM of a particular game or the writer of a particular setting wants a limit on healing magic, then they should put one in place.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Which leads to it's own set of problems.....is STR too cheap? Is Killing Attack underpriced/overpowerful? How DO you add various classes of damage together? Is armor visible by default?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Sometimes all these complications are enough to choke a palindromedary...

So, we need to go through and do a clean up and refactoring. Big deal. It would not take that much (though it'd probably take a 6th Edition and the willingness to finally jetison 20 years of detritous and being beholden to not outdating previous edition's write-ups)

 

I however don't think other than normalizing Damage Classes and a few other things, the problems you mentioned are that hard to fix. STR to cheap: GMs need to be willing to enforce campaign limits, not that hard a concept. Yes, it's cheap for what you get, but if you are the GM and you don't want people using an aluminum baseball bat to take out a bank safe then you need to enforce campaign limits. Not trying to make Bricks so expensive that they can't be played effectively in Supers games.

 

TB

[MagePro]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

I think although Regen and Healing basically are healing powers. They don't do it in similarly enough to warrant being the same power.

 

BTW: Billy T has it right on! With our groups, we've taken Regen out of the Healing group and threw it back to 4th Ed. No fear shows in the characters/players eyes when the take a debilating hit in Fantasy Hero or a Justice, Inc.-type game using 5th Ed rules on Healing.

 

They are actually seperate powers IMO... it's like the difference between an Energy Blast and a Ranged Killing Attack. It's the same basic concept. They both do damage, but in different ways. Otherwise, why not just put an advantage on to Energy Blast and call it Killing damage or something like that?

 

Another power that is often overlooked as an example is Penetration. The first appearance (in 5th Ed. Rev.) of this power occurs in the description of the Advantage, Hardened. (How Hardened provides 'protection' against Indirect attacks, I have no idea. p 260) (re: P115 5er)

 

There are strange rulings that only make sense at high power levels. Such is the case that limits Penetration when applied to STR and how it effects other things like weapons, combat/martial arts maneuvers. In a campaign that limits attacks to 50-60 points, a low STR with some martial arts benefits NOTHING from the STR having the Armor Piercing or Penetrating Advantage. The answer, just buy more dice. In that case, the only thing that makes your detailed Martial Artist different from a typical brick is the costume they wear. Ever try to add Penetrating to a Martial Arts Maneuver in Hero Designer? A simple 4 point maneuver gets increased to 21 points. Who can afford that just for some special effect they are trying to do?

 

For another example of something that doesn't make sense... There is a reference to Pass Without Trace that is purchased as Gliding with a 'Limitation' called Ground Gliding that allows them to ignore losing altitude. IMO, it does not apply adequatly to this effect. (re: P182 5er) If it also included RSR built into this, I might see the balancing element, but it doesn't. This is more of an Advantage than a Limitation and pigeon holes the possible effects. It is literally Flight that costs no END now, only much cheaper.

 

For characters that don't have much running, Flight bought for 6", 0 END with the Lim's Ground Only (not on water or other similar surface such as ice), No Vertical Movment and Limited to Characters Maximum Movement on foot, etc. would limit Flight enough to maybe even cost less and give the same effect... depending upon how much value is assigned to the stated Limitations.

 

Once again, IMO, it is not necessarily the example that voilates the rules as much as a 'Limitation' that doesn't limit the power enough to call a limitation that causes the issues.

 

OFF TOPIC: I guess, my main complaint rests with some of the changes made between 4th and 5th Editions. Many of the changes and clarifications have been great, but there are many that have spoiled some playability for older characters. IMO, the system favors bricks and your basic flying energy projector to an unfair degree.

 

Overall, I've learned that you can't expect to take a well rounded (with apprecable background skills) character and have them be effective 'weapon against crime' at the same power levels as 4th Edition at the same point level.

 

So, I guess the question is, if we were to even begin to try to 'convert' from 4th Ed., how many points more than the character was in 4th Ed. should I expect them to be?

[Kristopher]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

So, we need to go through and do a clean up and refactoring. Big deal. It would not take that much (though it'd probably take a 6th Edition and the willingness to finally jetison 20 years of detritous and being beholden to not outdating previous edition's write-ups)

 

I however don't think other than normalizing Damage Classes and a few other things, the problems you mentioned are that hard to fix. STR to cheap: GMs need to be willing to enforce campaign limits, not that hard a concept. Yes, it's cheap for what you get, but if you are the GM and you don't want people using an aluminum baseball bat to take out a bank safe then you need to enforce campaign limits. Not trying to make Bricks so expensive that they can't be played effectively in Supers games.

 

If someone with 60 STR hits a bank vault with an aluminum baseball bat...they end up with a very bent baseball bat.

 

 

SFX rocks!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

d20 doesn't limit how much you can heal a day' date=' but does limit how many spells you can cast in a day. Hero doesn't limit the number of times you can use your Healing spell, so it needs some other limit.[/quote']

 

In this, I feel that it would have made a more sensible rule to simply state that the GM should place some inherent limit on how often Healing should apply over a certain time. This could mean forcing players to buy it with Charges to saying no more than one use per "wound" to saying the effects of multiple used in a given time period don't stack. That way a GM could just choose what method he wanted and play with it, instead of scratching his head about how to make use of the one rule with an optional handwave.

[Gary]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

One thing that bothers me a great deal about Regeneration. It's extremely useful at its base level, but quite a bit less useful at higher levels. 4 Body Regeneration is not 4 times as useful as 1 Body Regen (it's probably not even twice as useful), but it costs 4 times as much.

 

I'd probably change it so that the 1st point of Regen costs X, and each additional point costs 1/2 X or something similar. And it would be treated as its own special power. The limbs and resurrection Adders are well worth the price however.

[Gary]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Ghost/Dust Angel/Raven, is there a story behind the name changes?

[casualplayer]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Is there something wrong with a system when it is better to Transform someone into something with Regeneration than to Heal them? Maybe. Regeneration Usable By Others? Transfer the target's END into BODY?.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Ghost/Dust Angel/Raven' date=' is there a story behind the name changes? [/quote']

 

Yes.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

I think the bigger issue with Regeneration is the absence of a cap on how much could be healed. With no provision for reducing the "reset time" in the core rules in 5e (they were suggested in Fantasy Hero and are' date=' I believe, in 5er), Regeneration as previously written, couldn't be shoehorned into Healing without some handwaving.[/quote']

Aye, and even in 5ER where, as you say, a standard means has been included for reducing the reset time, Regeneration is still handwaved (it doesn't use that mechanism!). That inconsistency really does bother me. Others I can tolerate. Like Instant Change, which IIRC (I don't tend to pay much attention to IC because it is really not used in my frequent gaming genres and tends to be somewhat rare and not unbalancing even in an appropriate game/setting) only allows things that are stated as normally, "requiring GM permission" (i.e. the rules distinguish it as being an option GMs may commonly allow, rather than being something a GM has to, "house rule").

[actingkeith]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

I guess I have something to say on this, but it's a kind of general thing.

 

Regeneration, like Killing Attacks and Energy Blasts, was part of HERO since its inception.

 

The mechanics of these three legacy powers have not changed since late 1980. It's the same with the way STR is/has been built and works.

 

Even though they moved Regen into the more general 'Healing' power in 5E, they didn't change the mechanics of the power; it still works exactly the way it did 25 years ago. So what they did was they said, "It's a kind of healing, so we'll group it like that, but it has its own rules so we'll just include that in Regen's particular description."

 

And here's the thing I wanted to say... It worked 25 years ago; it works today. It was reasonably balanced 25 years ago; it's still reasonably balanced today.

 

And that's all.

 

Regeneration works and is reasonably balanced.

 

For all the poeple who are trying to make Regeneration work within the Healing design (or worse, merely complaining that it doesn't), please remember that Healing is the new kid on the block... an evolved critter from three variations on an idea (Drain... it's reverse (Aid)... and Adjustment Powers in general). It was only after that that people (who were actively looking to make things more concise) started to see the similarities between Healing and Regen... and only after much debate did they decide to shoehorn Regen into the Healing power in 5E.

 

Knocking Regeneration is a lot like knocking the 8th Ammendment to the US Constitution... sure people do it, but no one is changing it. Regeneration isn't changing unless someone finds a miraculous way to blend it seemlessly into some as yet undiscovered Power structure.

 

Thanks for listening,

 

-k