Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

[Kristopher]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Yes...twice as expesive. It takes a minute or so get back your Stun' date=' but potentially months to get back all your Body (in the absence of Healing). Do you think it should really only be worth twice as much? [/quote']

 

As a matter of character construction, yes, it should be right where it is.

[zornwil]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

If Hero were not a game that attempted to be universal I would agree with you. But' date=' since it is "universal" I don't. Some genres require limits of one sort while other genres require limits of a different sort (or no such limits at all). As a result I think having such limits hard-coded into the system, as opposed to leaving them to the game master, is a mistake. Make the suggestion, sure, but more than that is innapropriate.[/quote']

In turn, I would add that you are pointing to the fundamental issue - people are upset (or whatever degree of displeasure one wants to assign) because of specific genre tropes or their more personal views of how these things should work, which I believe is also often shaped by the kinds of stories one reads/enjoys.

 

Thus in my opinion these often should be only at the game rule level. I'm not sure if we need Regen, per se, in the core book, but we need it in Champions as suggested builds or even a suggested rule at the game layer, same with FH, and so on. I certainly think Instant Change qualifies for this treatment. And it's a good opportunity to explain why things might not be the same as the mechanical core might otherwise suggest.

[schir1964]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Zornwil makes a good point.

 

If the system is to be used in a universal way, then the mechanics should allow the GM to build Powers/Talents/Skills that are unique for the campaign he going to run. The GM would then have the ability to give a list of Genre specific Powers/Talents/Skills at a base level that could be modified by the players as needed to fit the character concepts.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Thrakazog]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Two words: "house rule"

[Silbeg]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

The way I'd prefer it be handled is thusly:

Take REC and put some level of Limitation on it to represent only Recovering BODY. Now, buy the time up the Time Chart to (default) Once Per Turn. If one notch up the Time Chart is +1/2, this would make +4. Thus +1 REC (2 Base Points), Reduce BODY REC Time To 1/Turn (+4) (10 Active Points).

While I really like this concept, since it ties into a pre-existing ability (REC), it does become quite expensive.

 

Also, I believe this was described in a recent Digital HERO as an option, though I believe that they were talking about a +1/4 advantage per time chart level.

 

Still, for a 10 REC, going from 10/month to 10/week is only 5 points (with the +1/4). To 10/day (or 1 BODY per 2.4 hours), it would cost 10 points.

 

This is quite a bit more expensive than it would be with the Healing-based Regeneration... however, that being said, I do like the idea. I just don't expect that people would want to buy it that way, unless there was as significant advantage to doing so.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

(EDIT: I hadn't seen Black Rose's earlier post... great minds, and all that.

 

Beware Zornwil, the almighty thread necromancer...

 

 

My main gripe with Regeneration as it's handled in fifth is the basis it was built on. I have no problem in general with the design goal for 5th that sought to consolidate powers into a slightly smaller number of core mechanics... especially for powers (like Instant Change) that are more genre-specific. The only nitpick I have with Regen is that it shouldn't (IMO) have been folded into Healing. Why? Because the way Regen operates is already much closer to a different existing mechanism for regaining lost BODY than it is to Healing.

 

Healing takes only a Half-Phase to use, works on self or others, has a maximum possible effect, and costs END to use. Regeneration, on the other hand, takes longer than the standard amount of time for power use (i.e., it takes longer than a Zero-Phase or Half-Phase action), it is self-only, it has no maximum effect, and it costs no END to use. In short, you have to change Healing in almost every way to turn it into Regeneration.

 

But is there an existing mechanism in the HERO System that allows you to regain lost BODY, over time, with no set maximum effect and no END cost? Of course there is.

 

Recovery.

 

Regeneration shouldn't be a hacked and limited version of Healing... it should be an enhanced version of REC. It should allow you to use your REC to regain BODY much faster than the standard REC in BODY per Month.

 

The most straightforward way to set this up would simply be enough extra REC -- all bought with the Limitation "Only Recovers BODY (-1 1/2)" -- that you had an amount of limited REC equal to the number of Turns in a Month. However, since there are 216,000 Turns in a 30-day month, that would cost 172,800 points, even with the hefty Limitation. So that's probably a bit impractical.

 

I'd probably set it up as some Advantage (paid on the Active Cost of your REC, including the "free" base points) that costs +x to move that time y levels up the Time Chart.

 

So if each level of Regen was, say, +1/2 to move a step up the Time Chart, then Recovering your REC in BODY per Week would be +1/2, per Day would be +1, and so on, down to where regaining your REC in BODY per Turn would be +4. This sounds extremely expensive, and it would be... if you took it on all of your REC.

 

But of course, nothing says you have to do that. What if you don't want your whole REC in BODY per Turn? What if you just want, say, 1 BODY per Turn? Why, just apply the +4 Advantage on 1 point of your REC. And the cost of a +4 Advantage on a 2 Active Point power?

 

10 points. 10 points for 1 BODY Regen per Turn. Just like 4th Edition, and with no wonkifying the Healing rules.

[schir1964]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

So if each level of Regen was, say, +1/2 to move a step up the Time Chart, then Recovering your REC in BODY per Week would be +1/2, per Day would be +1, and so on, down to where regaining your REC in BODY per Turn would be +4. This sounds extremely expensive, and it would be... if you took it on all of your REC.

 

But of course, nothing says you have to do that. What if you don't want your whole REC in BODY per Turn? What if you just want, say, 1 BODY per Turn? Why, just apply the +4 Advantage on 1 point of your REC. And the cost of a +4 Advantage on a 2 Active Point power?

 

10 points. 10 points for 1 BODY Regen per Turn. Just like 4th Edition, and with no wonkifying the Healing rules.

Repped!

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

But of course, nothing says you have to do that. What if you don't want your whole REC in BODY per Turn? What if you just want, say, 1 BODY per Turn? Why, just apply the +4 Advantage on 1 point of your REC. And the cost of a +4 Advantage on a 2 Active Point power?

 

10 points. 10 points for 1 BODY Regen per Turn. Just like 4th Edition, and with no wonkifying the Healing rules.

 

I hate to do this Derek, but...

 

Isn't that +4 a naked advantage on 1 point of REC? All I want to do is recover 1 BOD per turn, in addition to the STUN and END I already get back from my REC, so I only have to pay 8 points.

 

[it still seems like a better way to simulate regeneration, though.]

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

I hate to do this Derek, but...

 

Isn't that +4 a naked advantage on 1 point of REC? All I want to do is recover 1 BOD per turn, in addition to the STUN and END I already get back from my REC, so I only have to pay 8 points.

 

[it still seems like a better way to simulate regeneration, though.]

 

Why yes, of course...

 

I, err... I was assuming you were buying an additional point of REC. Yeah, that's the ticket...

[zornwil]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Repped!

 

- Christopher Mullins

Good, I already repped him for something else, I've seen many comments as to similarities to REC but this is probably the most lucid take on that. It does make sense.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

I'd probably set it up as some Advantage (paid on the Active Cost of your REC, including the "free" base points) that costs +x to move that time y levels up the Time Chart.

 

So if each level of Regen was, say, +1/2 to move a step up the Time Chart, then Recovering your REC in BODY per Week would be +1/2, per Day would be +1, and so on, down to where regaining your REC in BODY per Turn would be +4. This sounds extremely expensive, and it would be... if you took it on all of your REC.

 

But of course, nothing says you have to do that. What if you don't want your whole REC in BODY per Turn? What if you just want, say, 1 BODY per Turn? Why, just apply the +4 Advantage on 1 point of your REC. And the cost of a +4 Advantage on a 2 Active Point power?

 

10 points. 10 points for 1 BODY Regen per Turn. Just like 4th Edition, and with no wonkifying the Healing rules.

I must spread some rep before repping you again it seems.

 

This is an excellent idea really. As Hugh points out, the real cost comes to 8 points as a Naked Advantage. The costs at other intervals would be as follows:

 

8 - Turn

7 - Minute

6 - 5 Minutes

5 - 20 Minutes

4 - Hour

3 - 6 Hours

2 - Day

1 - Week

0 - Month

 

Not a bad cost structure really. This could easily be turned into a Talent (or turning into it's own Power again) for simplicity. It also allows for quicker Regen than 1/turn as you can simply buy this more than once. For 24 points you'd Regen 3 BODY per Turn. The best part, there is no funky application of Limitations for slower regen; each spot on the time chart has it's own cost. Granted, 1/Turn is still more efficient than 4/day, but I think it's fair to say we'll never escape that aspect of Regen.

[Lucius]

Re: generation as Re: covery

 

You know, as far as I know, I was the FIRST to suggest Regeneration as a time-advantaged Recovery (and I got soundly blasted for it too at the time.) I bought the Fifth Rules EDition as soon as it was available, noticed Regeneration missing right away, and I think I posted my suggestion online within a week.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary remarks that we'll never forget the resulting flame war.

[JmOz]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

I think Regeneration and Healing have too much in common to be two seperate powers. And yet, they go about it two different ways. One seems to have a daily cap or a per/wound cap and the other seems to be how quickly can you go to near death and get back up.

 

Unfortuately, Regeneration is always going to be better than simple healing in the long haul. Healing is designed to speed recovery of taking wounds, but it will never be as effective as the same amount of Regeneration.

 

The points unfortuately prove it.

 

So why have both? Because Hero is modeling two different abilities. The ability to help your friend recover from injuries with a cure spell. And the ability to take horrendous amounts of damage, have the wounds close, bones knit and pop back into place, (limbs regrow and sometimes even come back from death) and the villian/monster smirks as if to say, "Is that all you got?"

 

 

The difference seems greater to me that FF and Armor...

[JmOz]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

I must spread some rep before repping you again it seems.

 

This is an excellent idea really. As Hugh points out, the real cost comes to 8 points as a Naked Advantage. The costs at other intervals would be as follows:

 

8 - Turn

7 - Minute

6 - 5 Minutes

5 - 20 Minutes

4 - Hour

3 - 6 Hours

2 - Day

1 - Week

0 - Month

 

Not a bad cost structure really. This could easily be turned into a Talent (or turning into it's own Power again) for simplicity. It also allows for quicker Regen than 1/turn as you can simply buy this more than once. For 24 points you'd Regen 3 BODY per Turn. The best part, there is no funky application of Limitations for slower regen; each spot on the time chart has it's own cost. Granted, 1/Turn is still more efficient than 4/day, but I think it's fair to say we'll never escape that aspect of Regen.

 

 

Perosnaly I have been toying with the idea of making Regeneration a 10 point power that lets you recover body one line hisher on the time table, so to get down to a turn would be about 80 points

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Perosnaly I have been toying with the idea of making Regeneration a 10 point power that lets you recover body one line hisher on the time table' date=' so to get down to a turn would be about 80 points[/quote']

 

I prefer Derek's approach, as it allows for 1 BOD per turn regeneration at a rational cost. Under your approach, a character with a 4 REC and a character with 40 REC would pay the same amount for a vastly different rate of regeneration. I recoginize they have both paid different amounts for the underlying REC, but still it doesn't sit right.

[zornwil]

Re: generation as Re: covery

 

You know, as far as I know, I was the FIRST to suggest Regeneration as a time-advantaged Recovery (and I got soundly blasted for it too at the time.) I bought the Fifth Rules EDition as soon as it was available, noticed Regeneration missing right away, and I think I posted my suggestion online within a week.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary remarks that we'll never forget the resulting flame war.

Sorry! I've heard some other REC-based notions before that were similar but didn't recall seeing it spelt out as Derek's.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Not a bad cost structure really. This could easily be turned into a Talent (or turning into it's own Power again) for simplicity.

If you wanted to keep the costs of the levels more "round" (i.e., 10 points per level instead of 8), you might say that Regeneration is a +1 Advantage plus an additional +1/2 for each level up the Time Chart. So REC in BODY per Week would be +1 1/2, per Day would be +2, and so on down to per Turn being +5. That way, using it as a Naked Advantage, the cost of Regen per Turn would come out to 10 points per level.

[mattingly]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Sweet idea, Derek.

[Vorsch]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

And where pray tell is the rule precluding me from taking it further down the time chart say to each segment?

 

And what about lims, such as This rec cant be used to regain stun, an easy -1 as thats practically all it does apart from gain 1 bod per month.

 

Also now ripe for advantage stacking, more so than 5ths version.

 

Not that im a fan of 5ths version.

 

Its non constant, can be turned off and on by the user? and breaks steves vision of unlimited healing.

 

I agree with anyone who thinks it deserves to be a seperate power, rather than a illegal collection of special advantages and limitations.

 

For the record, here my version of 5th regen.

 

10 Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (30 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Cannot be turned off; -1/4)

 

reason i give a lim for not being able to turn it off is that it can be used to test wolverine types, quick cut and your identified. also i wanted it to cost 10.

 

Oh and that goes for instant change as well.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

And where pray tell is the rule precluding me from taking it further down the time chart say to each segment?

 

And what about lims, such as This rec cant be used to regain stun, an easy -1 as thats practically all it does apart from gain 1 bod per month.

 

Also now ripe for advantage stacking, more so than 5ths version.

 

Not that im a fan of 5ths version.

 

Its non constant, can be turned off and on by the user? and breaks steves vision of unlimited healing.

 

I agree with anyone who thinks it deserves to be a seperate power, rather than a illegal collection of special advantages and limitations.

 

For the record, here my version of 5th regen.

 

10 Healing 1 BODY, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (30 Active Points); Extra Time (Regeneration-Only) 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Self Only (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Cannot be turned off; -1/4)

 

reason i give a lim for not being able to turn it off is that it can be used to test wolverine types, quick cut and your identified. also i wanted it to cost 10.

 

Oh and that goes for instant change as well.

Spoil sport!

 

 

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Actually, Vorsch, I think the "BODY Only" Limitation was more or less implied, as STUN Only is implied for NNDs and AVLDs. If not implied, definately assumed. At least I assumed.

 

Maybe I shouldn't assume.

[Lucius]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Actually, Vorsch, I think the "BODY Only" Limitation was more or less implied, as STUN Only is implied for NNDs and AVLDs. If not implied, definately assumed. At least I assumed.

 

Maybe I shouldn't assume.

 

As far as I was concerned, it was inferred. In fact, long ago when I first wrote it up, I may have made it explicit....

 

 

As for moving still further up the time chart, to 1/phase, or 1/segment, I can only say two things:

 

First, if you REALLY want to, I'm not sure anything is "stopping" you. Except maybe a sense of balance. If I'm running the game, I don't think I'd allow it; if you're running the game, you can allow what you like.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks what is Mr. Long's vision of unlimited healing, anyway? Sounds like a good name for a Fantasy Hero spell, actually...Vision of Unlimited Healing....

[Vorsch]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

point being you requie special rules to limit it to 1/turn and no more.

 

just like steve longs version.

 

Body only implied? thats nice but i dont see a limitation expressly stating that.

 

so its a lim, only to duplicate 4th regen.

 

begs the question, why not use 4th regen?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

Regeneration? You point whore! Buy extra REC, only for BOD, to get your total REC to 216,000 - that's 7,200 per day, 300 per hour, 5 per minute = 1 BOD recovered per turn. So that's 432,000 AP, and I'll give you -2 for BOD only - 144,000 points for 1 BOD Regen.

 

How dare you try to obtain an ability that powerful for a mere 8 or 10 points?

 

BTW, if you want it per segment, that means you need 2,592,000 REC, so that's 1,728,000 points.

 

And be grateful I'm such a lenient GM I give you -2 for "only BOD"...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Regeneration: And Other Examples Power That Violate The Rules

 

point being you requie special rules to limit it to 1/turn and no more.

 

just like steve longs version.

There is a difference between a "special rule" and a "campaign guideline". Granted, 5ER states it as a rule, but that's only because it's rulebook. For me, that doesn't change the fact it's a campaign guideline. Any GM could waive that restriction and still be using the official rules.

 

Body only implied? thats nice but i dont see a limitation expressly stating that.

Except that two people just stated it. And it's not a Limitation (with a capital L), it's an element of the Advantage (with a capital A) that's applied to REC to make it apply the recovery of BODY more often than once a month. Well, that's how it starts anyway. This is the basis of the potential Talent Regen would actually be listed as.

 

so its a lim, only to duplicate 4th regen.

 

begs the question, why not use 4th regen?

Because it's not duplicating 4th Edition's Regen Power. You can't buy 1 BODY/Turn Regen and apply a Limitation so that it regens slower. You just buy less of an Advantage on REC (kinda).