Martial Arts in the Pulp era

[FenrisUlf]

Just wanted to ask -- am I wrong, or was there a Japanese jujutsu master teaching martial arts in London from the late Victorian through the Pulp/WW2era? I'm certain I read something somewhere to that effect, but I've lost the details.

 

All I can remember is that the guy was famous and skilled, supposedly gave some lessons in HtH combat to British commandoes in WW2, and was brought to England by the guy who developed Baritsu.

[Steve Long]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Well, since baritsu is entirely fictional, that part of your memory is highly suspect. But it's certainly within the realm of possibility that someone was teaching some Jujutsu or other Asian martial arts in London during the period.

[AlHazred]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

I researched this a few years ago, even going so far as to buy a pamphlet called Sherlock Holmes in Japan, by Keith E. Webb. It's a Sherlockian publication from the Japan Sherlock Holmes Club, which at the time had 1200 active members (!!!); it tries to follow up on every Oriental reference in the Canon.

 

Anyway, there's an article titled "Where did Sherlock Holmes learn 'Baritsu'?" Apparently, there was an E. W. Barton-Williams who developed a form of Jiu-Jitsu called "Baritsu" in the mid-1890s in England. Too late for Holmes to have used it in his battle with Moriarty (in 1891), but likely the inspiration for ACD.

 

Other places for Westerners to have learned martial arts:

• Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, visited Europe from September 1889 to December 1890 in order to teach Western students.
  
• In 1885 in London, a play was put on called Japan Village. In it, an actor imitated the kiais of a kendo practitioner, and Kumiuchi, the samurai wrestling art. This performance was the very first opportunity for Britishers to see something of Japanese martial arts.
  
• The three most prestigious universities in Japan at the time included Judo in their curriculums: the Peer's School (in 1883), the Naval Officers' School (in 1887) and Tokyo University (also in 1887). These schools graduated the shiningest stars in Japan in the era, many of whom traveled to other countries for varying amounts of time. Some of them would have been devoted Judo practitioners.
  
• Ludwig Reese published a book (Allerlei aus Japan) in 1905, in which he advocated London policemen learn Jujutsu, which he had seen in a Policeman's Tournament in 1885.
  
• Lastly (and most interestingly), there were 246 Japanese known to be living in England in 1884. In 1885, that number increased to 266. Since the samurai were destroyed as a faction in power in Japan by 1877, some of these displaced Japanese could have been samurai...

Hope this helps.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Here is another couple of interesting historical characters who could train people during the pulp era:

 

William Ewart Fairbairn (1885-1960)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_E._Fairbairn

 

Eric Anthony Sykes (1883-1945)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_A._Sykes

 

If you had a character who had some history with the Hong Kong or Shanghai Police during this time period, martial arts training would be plausible. As you can see Fairbairn was active form the classic pulp era all the way up to WW2 and beyond. He fits the description of the person you are looking for, but I'm not sure he is the one you meant.

 

I have some more references, I can check. I'll try to post more later.

[LordGhee]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

teddy roosevelt had a jujutsu teacher at thewhite house around 1905

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Well' date=' since baritsu is entirely fictional, that part of your memory is highly suspect.[/quote']

Are you certain that it's entirely fictional? Unless my english is much worse than I thought, it's not fictional according to Wikipedia. It was however published in the Shadow Magazine.

[Steve Long]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Fredrik, the link you provide is to something called "Bartitsu" (note the spelling).

 

If you type in the correctly-spelled "Baritsu" in Wikipedia, the very first line in the entry says:

 

"Baritsu is possibly the world's most famous fictional martial art."

 

I'm certainly willing to be convinced otherwise, but I have yet to see anything that shows that Baritsu is anything but fictional. Given the similarities of the names of the people involved, I'd also speculate that what AlHazred is talking about in his post is this "Bartitsu," not Baritsu.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Thanks for all the info, and for straightening out the 'Baritsu-Bartitsu' mixup. I was just asking because I could swear that I remember reading about a 'Master Otani' who left Japan to show Jujutsu to European audiences, along with a character named Barton-Wright. It didn't turn out well.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

I would also suggest using European and other non-Asian fighting systems. We always forget that people outside Asia were pretty good at killing each other.

 

Savate or savate boxe française was well established in France from 1832 on. It has cane fighting as an element, as well.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savate

http://www.cambridgeacademy.fsnet.co.uk/History.html

 

I have played with the idea of an Indiana Jones like character who is half Native American and has skill with tomahawk and knife fighting. Think about those scenes from The Patriot and Last of the Mohicans (1992 version)

 

This page had some great photos of techniques, but it looks like some of the links are dead. Hopefully they will fix them, but there is still some great stuff there about Bowie knives and such. Check out the unarmed section too, if you are interested.

 

http://ahfaa.org/

[Hopscotch]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

There are many non Asian organized fighting methods.

 

Spanish and Itallian knife fighting schools, several still survive today.

 

While boxing has existed as an organized form since the middle ages, It was the Irish who revolutionized the art by adding the footwork and "bob and weave" elements that we recognize today. Even well into the 20th century, Ireland claimed many of the world's finest boxers.

 

There would have been many more Chinese in London at the turn of the 20th century, and though that society tended to be very insular, it is possible you could have some Chinese arts.

 

Capoeira, the Brazillian fighting/dancing form did spread through the Carribean, so it is possible that someone, from the british islands in that part of the world might know that art.

 

Eastern Europeans were especially fond of wrestling arts. (Not just Russians. Greeks, Hungarians, and others had formalized forms.)

 

Though I am going back too far in history, recent research into the fighting style of the Knights Templar show that it had many more similarities with Aikido than many of the later European sword techniques. It employed the step off, off balance, counter strike method that will be familiar to practicioners of many "soft" martial arts.

 

I know very little about African forms, but I know that they existed. Those could have also found their way to London.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Flames]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Take a look at this website, done by a guy who (gulp) happens to be a childhood friend of mine... http://www.alliancemartialarts.com ...

 

Also, anyone here ever seen the Jackie Chan movie The Big Brawl?

[AlHazred]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Given the similarities of the names of the people involved' date=' I'd also speculate that what AlHazred is talking about in his post is this "Bartitsu," not Baritsu.[/quote']In fact, that is exactly what I meant to type.

 

Al "Check twice, type oncet" Hazred

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

theres also the scottish martial art Taigh Suntais, which according to this site, dates to the 13th century and was practiced up to the end of the 19th century

 

t may come as a surprise to the Western reader that Europeans too practiced and developed systems of armed and unarmed combat with dance-like forms or kata, an abdominal shout similar to the Japanese Ki-ai, conditioning exercises and meditation techniques. Many western masters of the late 13th century right through to 19th century, wrote and published treatises of their techniques, styles & theories. They include stick-fighting, swordsmanship, grappling and fist-fighting, many of which are illustrated and now widely available on the internet. These arts were practiced throughout the British Isles and Ireland, although on the surface, little evidence remains today, other than those kept alive in the traditions of morris dancing, sword dancing, country fairs and Highland games.

 

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/styles/westernma.htm

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

theres also the scottish martial art Taigh Suntais, which according to this site, dates to the 13th century and was practiced up to the end of the 19th century

 

t may come as a surprise to the Western reader that Europeans too practiced and developed systems of armed and unarmed combat with dance-like forms or kata, an abdominal shout similar to the Japanese Ki-ai, conditioning exercises and meditation techniques. Many western masters of the late 13th century right through to 19th century, wrote and published treatises of their techniques, styles & theories. They include stick-fighting, swordsmanship, grappling and fist-fighting, many of which are illustrated and now widely available on the internet. These arts were practiced throughout the British Isles and Ireland, although on the surface, little evidence remains today, other than those kept alive in the traditions of morris dancing, sword dancing, country fairs and Highland games.

 

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/styles/westernma.htm

 

 

I had this bookmarked from an earlier thread, but I dont remember who posted it originally, somebody remind me so I can rep them for it

[Steve Long]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

I remain skeptical of "martial arts" I've only ever seen one reference for, but if it plays out, that'd be a good one for UMA someday. Thanx for piquing my curiosity, at least.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Thanks to both lapsedgamer and Hopscotch. Rep to you both.

 

And yes, I did know a little about European martial arts -- some from my own reading, some from what I read in Ultimate Martial Artist. I've long pondered playing a superhero-level martial artist who sticks to European styles. Though learning forgotten styles like Kampfringen and Arte Dell'Abracciare might be difficult.

[Black Omega]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Thanks to both lapsedgamer and Hopscotch. Rep to you both.

 

And yes, I did know a little about European martial arts -- some from my own reading, some from what I read in Ultimate Martial Artist. I've long pondered playing a superhero-level martial artist who sticks to European styles. Though learning forgotten styles like Kampfringen and Arte Dell'Abracciare might be difficult.

Some people have tried to recreate Pankration, which is much older. Someone with an already solid martial arts background and access to the manuals could try to recreate it. And that's ignoring the old 'forgotten master' thing.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Some people have tried to recreate Pankration' date=' which is much older. Someone with an already solid martial arts background and access to the manuals could try to recreate it.[/quote']

 

I've read of that somewhere. Thanks for reminding me.

 

And that's ignoring the old 'forgotten master' thing.

 

Very true. Or you could borrow a page from the old 'Valda' series at DC and get your training from the ghosts of Europe's greatest fighting masters.

[joegottman]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

One example of a pulp character who actually used martial arts is Nellie Grey, one of the Avenger's sidekicks. She was a tiny blonde woman who knew jujitsu and could throw gangsters around "like tenpins". Her knowledge of jujitsu was treated as unusual but not extraordinary. There was no mention of her learning it from Oriental masters or anything like that. It was implied that she had studied it in college or at prep school. Also, Smitty, one of the Avenger's other sidekicks, recognized that she was using jujitsu the first time he met her. Since he was hardly a martial-arts master it could not have been that unusual.

[st barbara]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

"Ultimate Martial Artist" also mentions the Basque martial art "Zipota" which sounds similar to Savate. A european character could have learned this without having been to the orient.

[Koshka]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Not pulp, but the right period -- there's a reference in at least one of S.S. Van Dine's novels about Philo Vance to Vance knowing jujitsu.

[Yansuf]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

I have seen many references to jui-jitsu and judo instructors in the US in the pulp era. They were not common, but in any major city you could probably find one. How good they would be is another question.

Captain (later LtCol) Fairbain also instructed members of the OSS in the Washington DC area in WWII, referrence is made to this in "You're Stepping on my Cloak and Dagger." His book "Get Tough" was available in the 1930's, in fact Wikopedia says the first edition was in 1926 (my copy was from later.)

This last I cannot verify right now, but I seem to recall that in Rear Admiral Dan Gallery's autobiography he mentions that the midshipmen at Annapolis did recieve a few classes in jui-jitsu when he was there during World War One.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Wasn't boxing treated at the time in a manner similar to the way martial arts are treated now, as "the manly art of self-defense" taught to gentlemen as well as self-taught by street toughs?

 

I can't help but think how surprised most macho pulp heroes would be to find that the femme fatale they are ignoring has a right jab worthy of Jack Dempsey?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_Wrestling

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch_Wrestling

 

Nice set of links from that article. Thanks Bloodstone.

 

Me, I was surprised to read that 'catch wrestlers' beat Japanese jujutsu experts in shoot fights. I didn't think they were that good.