Martial Arts in the Pulp era

[Vanguard00]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

theres also the scottish martial art Taigh Suntais' date='[/quote']

I believe "Taigh Suntais" is the actual school, like a dojo or an academy. I can't find the meaning for the words but I have seen several references for "[location] Taigh Suntais".

 

Originally it appears it was indeed a training ground for warriors, teaching them the use of sword & dagger by way of sticks and cudgels, as well as wrestling throws and the like.

 

In all honestly I can't find any references that would lead me to believe this is an actual martial art and not just a school of training.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Nice set of links from that article. Thanks Bloodstone.

 

Me, I was surprised to read that 'catch wrestlers' beat Japanese jujutsu experts in shoot fights. I didn't think they were that good.

 

Same here. American pop culture has it that Eastern martial arts are unmatched by anything the West has to offer.

[Tarek]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

There are Philipino martial arts as well. Escrima, which is really a generic name that covers many variations of weapon fighting.

 

Of course western fighting styles are just as good as eastern fighting styles. The "mystique" of the oriental martial arts is due solely to the fact that the teachers were secretive about the combat style they taught. In the west, any teacher of a style of combat would advertise his training and take on anyone who wished to learn. Any hand-to-hand fighting technique that's actually used must be effective, or the practitioners get badly wounded and/or die. The difference between west and east, is that western styles tend to be much more eclectic and not organized in terms of "schools" as the eastern arts are.

 

And it doesn't surprise me at all that "forms" were used in training mercenaries and soldiers in the middle ages and renaissance. Hand to hand combat depends on muscle memory, and "forms" are one way of training the effective movements into the body.

[Guest Celt]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Same here. American pop culture has it that Eastern martial arts are unmatched by anything the West has to offer.

 

It's the ethnic badass factor. If it's got a backstory it must be superior.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Nice set of links from that article. Thanks Bloodstone.

 

Me, I was surprised to read that 'catch wrestlers' beat Japanese jujutsu experts in shoot fights. I didn't think they were that good.

 

No problem. If you want to know anything else, feel free to PM me. Facinating and brutally effective art.

[Yansuf]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Concerning western wrestling vs. Judo, back when I was in the army, I competed on the Fort Belvoir Judo team against other installations. While practicing we discovered that there was a high level greco-roman wrestler on the post, who asked to practice with us. We got him to come and compete with us in several matchs as our first seed, and he was undefeated!

 

Of course greco-roman wrestling is much closer to sport judo than catch wrestling is; like judo you are not allowed any takedowns that are primerally grabing the legs, which are almost all the standard catch wrestling ones. (I did catch wrestling in HS.) Since Judoka are not used to defending their legs, this is a major reason that they have trouble in mixed matches.

 

On the question of mixed martial arts, many years ago a midwestern (US) university set up matches between the boxing and wrestling teams. The wrestlers won 7-1.

 

Also on this note, an expert boxer can usually beat a karate or kung fu expert expert if grappling is not allowed; in full contact karate matches they have to have rules requiring a minimum number of kicks per round to keep it from becoming a pure boxing match. Of course, in a real fight where kicking at the leg and knee were allowed this might be different.

 

On the subject of practical martial arts for real combat, I recall the senior coach of our team (who was also a black belt in Hapkido) commenting that he didn't believe any kick above the belt was feasible for soldiers, because he had never seen anyone who could do them wearing field gear.

[Savinien]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

How does this all relate to the the KS: Martial Arts World in relation to the year 1925?

 

Anybody have any ideas?

[Twilight]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

I'd say most of the Catch Wrestling types would be pretty well known to anybody with KS: Martial Arts World. They'd definetly have heard of people like Frank Gotch, George Hackenschmidt and the like who were fighting for the World Title around that time. They had a pretty high level of fame back in those days. Not sure about anything else though.

 

Also, wasn't there a Hollywood actor of that period who knew Judo and actually used it in a fight scene in one of his movies? I remember hearing that someplace.

[Yansuf]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

All the martial arts manuevers given under "JuJitsu" on page 401 of 5th ed (rev) would be known to any good wrestler, with the possible exception of the strike (while it would not be part of wrestling, most wrestlers do know how to throw a punch.) The names would be different, (sacrifice throw would be takedown, for instance), but the manuevers would be known. Disarm would only be known to wrestlers who practiced self-defense techniques, but that was not uncommon.

 

Anyone with "self defense" training, police training, or military training (from the Great War?) could reasonably pick any of the boxing, dirty infighting, jujitsu or wrestling maneuvers, and possibly also the karate knifehand strike (called the judo chop back then).

 

BTW, the "legsweep" manuever given for Kung Fu is most definitely part of Ju-Jitsu, it is even legal in sport judo. But it might not be part of wrestling, I cannot decide if that maneuver simulates the single leg pickup.

 

One possible rules problem here is that most wrestling throw/takedowns do not do damage, generally only "slam" type ones do. I will have to try and put together a list of what I think simulates wrestling moves better.

[BlackSword]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

How does this all relate to the the KS: Martial Arts World in relation to the year 1925?

Knowing of the other major Martial Artists in the world. Also it might allow for knowledge of secret martial arts based cults/schools in the Far East, or Secret Schools in the West.

[BlackSword]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Also on this note, an expert boxer can usually beat a karate or kung fu expert expert if grappling is not allowed; in full contact karate matches they have to have rules requiring a minimum number of kicks per round to keep it from becoming a pure boxing match. Of course, in a real fight where kicking at the leg and knee were allowed this might be different.

 

On the subject of practical martial arts for real combat, I recall the senior coach of our team (who was also a black belt in Hapkido) commenting that he didn't believe any kick above the belt was feasible for soldiers, because he had never seen anyone who could do them wearing field gear.

I was watching some clips from K-1. While the fighter did mostly boxing, he was able to kick at the head pretty quick (mind you this is in a fighting ring with minimal gear, agree about doing said kick in street clothes or with a military kit). The fighter was French, but don't know if his kicking style was derived from Savate or Muay Thai. Also he won one of his matches by kicking his opponents leg hard enough the opponent could no longer stand. Even with his powerful kicks, his most devastating attack was a punch that when it landed was a guarenteed KO.

[pinecone]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

I'd say most of the Catch Wrestling types would be pretty well known to anybody with KS: Martial Arts World. They'd definetly have heard of people like Frank Gotch, George Hackenschmidt and the like who were fighting for the World Title around that time. They had a pretty high level of fame back in those days. Not sure about anything else though.

 

Also, wasn't there a Hollywood actor of that period who knew Judo and actually used it in a fight scene in one of his movies? I remember hearing that someplace.

James Cagney used Jiujutsu in several of his movies, Teddy R studied it as well...

[Twilight]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

James Cagney used Jiujutsu in several of his movies' date=' Teddy R studied it as well...[/quote']

 

Thanks pinecone. I thought it was Cagney but I wasn't sure.

[st barbara]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Frank Gotch sounds as if he was a fascinating character. Once wrestled Hackenschmidt for two hours, a match which he won on disqualification. Only weighed 200lbs (even then that was small for a heavyweight). He is also credited with being the inventor of the "drop toe hold" with which he won his second match against Hackenschmidt (in under two minutes !). I have also read that he was a vicious individual and wasn't above breaking his opponents ankles with his toe hold and that (acording to some versions of the story) he paid another wretler to injure Hackenschmidt prior to the rematch !

[Twilight]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Not just any wrestler but Abe Stenel, who was the World Judo Champion [albiet self proclaimed] for awhile during that time. Defeated several Japanese fighters sent to take the title from him as well.

 

Anyway, as the story goes, Gotch hired him to injure Hackenschmidt during a training match. Gotch's supporters deny this of course.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Cagney was a Judo man.

 

As for Gotch, like any legend there are stories that are true and there are stories that are complete ballyhoo.

 

And that's Ad Santel you're thinking of Twilight.

[Twilight]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Cagney was a Judo man.

 

As for Gotch, like any legend there are stories that are true and there are stories that are complete ballyhoo.

 

And that's Ad Santel you're thinking of Twilight.

 

Well at least I got the last name right. Pretty good considering I was working from memory and have only ever read anything in depth about the guy once. Mostly you just read in books on wrestling how he allegedly [though they generally leave out the allgedly part] injured Hackenschmidt before his match with Gotch.

[Yansuf]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

I have just been reading some things on WWI unarmed combat training. While it was usually (in the US and UK) based on boxing, it seems that a considerable amount of jiu jitsu was included.

The site: http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm

has an electronic copy of a 1920 book by "Captain Allan Corstorphin Smith., USA"; which was supposed to be what he had taught as an instructor in WWI. It was very similar to the "Combat Judo" holds and throws taught in WWII.

Therefore, it would seem Pulp Hero characters could learn jiu jitsu with the background "taught it in the great war."

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

I just learned from the Martial Arts of The World; An Encyclopedia, Volume 2 that both Savate and Zipota were taght in Louisiana and South texas. Indeed, on page 520 it states that 'Isdro Chapa, a zipota maitre as well as a retired boxing champion and noted boxing coach in Laredo, Texas, trained his fighters in zipota for use in the streets.'

 

I must admit, I never thought of South Texas as a center for savate and zipota. Say, Robert E. Howard was a fanatical boxer, wasn't he? Hmm, wonder if he ever trained in either art.

 

The artcle also points out that until a relatively late date, fighters who learned savate also learned boxing and wrestling - maybe catch wrestling. So it seems you could have had Texan martial arts masters as early the the late 19th century!

 

Live and learn.

[Yansuf]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

The artcle also points out that until a relatively late date' date=' fighters who learned savate also learned boxing and wrestling - maybe catch wrestling. So it seems you could have had Texan martial arts masters as early the the late 19th century! .[/quote']

 

As I recall my reading, many savate schools in the late 18th or early 19th century started teaching "Le Boxe Francis" (I probably mis-spelled that) which was a combination of savate and British boxing.

[Twilight]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

As I recall my reading' date=' many savate schools in the late 18th or early 19th century started teaching "Le Boxe Francis" (I probably mis-spelled that) which was a combination of savate and British boxing.[/quote']

 

Le Boxe Francais is another name for modern savate, as I recall. To the best of my knowledge, modern savate came about by mixing the old form [which was purely kicking] with British boxing to create what is now modern savate.

[mikesama]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

For a decent list of martial arts from europe ranging from 13c to 21c check out http://www.aemma.org/library_top.htm .

 

As far as pugilism and wrestling, Fiore De Libre had a wrestling style that shares many fundimental principles with Aikido in the very early 15th century. Pugilism was much more complex than most people believe, complete with Counter strikes, wrestling takedowns and counter wrestling techniques.

[Black Omega]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

For a decent list of martial arts from europe ranging from 13c to 21c check out http://www.aemma.org/library_top.htm .

 

As far as pugilism and wrestling, Fiore De Libre had a wrestling style that shares many fundimental principles with Aikido in the very early 15th century. Pugilism was much more complex than most people believe, complete with Counter strikes, wrestling takedowns and counter wrestling techniques.

In the old bareknuckle days a knockdown was simply a boxer being sent to the ground. It could be a punch or a throw.

[proditor]

Re: Martial Arts in the Pulp era

 

Back to Bartitsu, someone took a shot at a HERO version:

 

http://www.philm.demon.co.uk/RPGs/Brttsu_H.htm

 

Oh, if anyones need some more linkage on Barton-Wright and some of his published writings:

 

http://www.international-atemijujitsu.co.uk/bartitsu.html

 

http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_barton-wright_0200.htm

 

http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_jujitsu/pt_shorthistory.html