Self-Aware Ammo

[Mazeus Xenon]

I have been kicking around a number of ideas for this but none of them seem to sit well with me. How you would design a weapon with ammo that has ammo that can actively track a target?

 

My two best ideas:

• Create a Summon Power for the gun that "summons" the shell, defined as an automaton, or Vehicle with an AI.
  

• Create a power that is Continuous and Uncontrolled but I am not sure how that would work to follow someone around a combat field!
  

 

I welcome any feedback/input.

[Curufea]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

Add extra OCV levels. A weapon that is +5 OCV must have somethiing like tracking ammunitioin in order to hit that well. It's just a special effect.

 

You could also add indirect, or NND (defense being fully enclosed armour) because it can go through gaps.

 

Or just have a delayed effect, or trigger to represent travel time to the target.

[Old Man]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

+OCV works, but it doesn't let you work out fun sequences of trying to evade a persistent seeking weapon and/or trying to decoy it into hitting something else.

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

Ok, not being a hero guru by any means I may not be the best person to answe, but how about giving the bullet a set of stats and making it a very, very limited NPC who's job is to track down and hit the target?

 

Give it a skill level and sense ability, and when fired use the shooters skill, but if it does not hit at once the bullet becomes an independant psuedo npc who tries to make a sense roll to reacquire target and then a skill roll to hit.

 

 

They could have a speed and endurance rating to track how much fuel they have.

 

You could even give them a limited intelligence or skill to avoid counter measures like flares if they're IR seekers. Roll to see if a flare suceeds in distracting them or if they detect the deception and defeat it.

 

It would mean making these bullets into very limited npc's and popssibly buying them as allies, but from what I've seen that would not be too outrageous for hero to handle.

[CSgeekHero]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

+OCV works' date=' but it doesn't let you work out fun sequences of trying to evade a persistent seeking weapon and/or trying to decoy it into hitting something else.[/quote']

Or more fun would be to make the ammo an NPC. If it is truly self-aware, what would it do if it decided that it didn't like the person who squeezed the trigger?

[Robyn]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

Or more fun would be to make the ammo an NPC. If it is truly self-aware' date=' what would it do if it decided that it didn't like the person who squeezed the trigger?[/quote']

 

I'm remembering an early scene from Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

 

(Or maybe a late scene, my memories of it are rather hazy. Several bullets are shot into the shadows in a tunnel, but decide they're afraid of the dark and go somewhere else.)

 

Give it autofire and an all-or-nothing effect, either it misses or it hits, and when it hits the effect ends?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

Guys, guys. Good heavens.

 

Area of Effect (One Hex, Accurate +1/2) will make your ammo sentient enough to get by in most cases. The +1/2 is fairly cheap, and it reduces your targets DCV to 3. Done. If you start building summons, et al, you get much too complex for what you want, which is hyper-accurate ammunition. This is the best most efficient way to do it.

 

Then, if you still want to add OCV levels to it, you aren't starting from scratch; your target starts life at DCV 3, and then must dodge or use DCV levels. Much more efficient.

[Lucius]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

Someone once posted a couple of Advantages that responded to this EXACT situation. I have them in hardcopy and once I dig them out I'll post them again.

 

But the first one was, I think a +1/2 advantage that meant an attack would "lock on" to a given target and then if it missed, the next phase would try to make a perception roll and then another attack roll, until it hit or missed badly enough that it hit something else. One way to evade it is to outrun it. It couldn't go beyond its base range.

 

Or, you could always buy a very very small "vehicle."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Asking the palindromedary where the caffeine is....

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

Someone once posted a couple of Advantages that responded to this EXACT situation. I have them in hardcopy and once I dig them out I'll post them again.

 

But the first one was, I think a +1/2 advantage that meant an attack would "lock on" to a given target and then if it missed, the next phase would try to make a perception roll and then another attack roll, until it hit or missed badly enough that it hit something else. One way to evade it is to outrun it. It couldn't go beyond its base range.

 

Or, you could always buy a very very small "vehicle."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Asking the palindromedary where the caffeine is....

 

 

 

 

Something like this with a very limited endurance, like one turn, but it's SPD allows it to make several attacks, would be good.

 

Realistically a bullet sized projectile, even a big bullet as in runaway, shouldn't have enough fuel for more than one 12 second turn, if that.

[Lucius]

Self-Aware Ammo

 

Found the post I wanted. I found it interesting enough I made a hardcopy. It's dated 31MAR2000 and was posted by Opal.

 

She made the point that ammunition as "vehicle" can't be missile deflected, but CAN be blocked, or even martial thrown. But above all, the problem is the 1:5 cost break. That can make an attack insanely cheap, reportedly. She described two advantages that I will try to post word for word (with a few ommissions for brevity's sake)

 

 

Tenacious +1/2

 

The Tenacious advantage represents an attack (like a guided missile) that keeps trying to hit its target on consecutive phases. Tenacious attacks "lock on" a target using a targeting sense chosen from those of the character purchasing it. Additional or alternate senses can be bought linked to the attack. To use a tenacious attack, the character attacks the target's hex. If it hits the hex, the tenacious attack makes a perception roll (based on the INT of the character that bought it) to lock on to the target. If there are several possible targets in the same hex, a failed perception roll (-1 per additional figure in the hex) will cause the attack to lock on to the wrong target.

 

Once locked on, the attack tries to hit the target on each of the attacker's phases. The tenacious attack can travel its maximum range each phase.....in pursuit of a target. The tenacious attack has the OCV of the character that bought it plus any levels that have been linked to the attack. The attacker must spend END on the attack for each phase he wishes it to attack. Once it hits, the tenacious attack is dissipated, regardless of how much END it has left.

 

Note: it's implied here that it's like an uncontrolled attack, you allot the END when you first make the attack and it keeps going until that runs out. Regarding escaping the attack:

 

Obvious tactics include: moving into densely populated hexes, hiding in smoke or darkness, or flashing the attack's sense. Attacks bought through a focus can also be attacked (DCV = OCV +2)

 

 

Seeking +1

 

A seeking attack behaves in a manner similar to a tenacious one but is more sophisticated. To use a seeking attack the character simply programs the target's appearance (to the attack's sense) and releases the attack. The attack travels its maximum range per phase (either in a straight line or in some other pre-determined search pattern) until it finds its target or runs out of END.

When it passes within detection range of its target the attack makes a perception roll....Success indicates that the attack has locked on and will begin making hit rolls like a tenacious attack. Failure indicates that the target was not acquired and another perception roll can be made next phase if the target is still nearby. Seeking attacks will only lock on to the wrong target on a roll of 18 or when some form of disguise or images is used. Seeking attacks can be programmed to move more slowly to increase the chances of spotting a difficult target.

 

 

 

Personally, I think they may be underpriced. But obviously, I found the idea interesting.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is amazed that Lucius kept that for 5 years and actually found it again when someone was asking a relevant question....maybe he SHOULD have been a librarian....

[Mantis]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

I have been kicking around a number of ideas for this but none of them seem to sit well with me. How you would design a weapon that has ammo that can actively track a target?

Give the weapon a Targeting Sense (Normal Sight, IR Sight, Radar, whatever) and its own PER roll (to find and lock on to the target) and CSLs that are Linked to that Targeting sense and PER roll. Countermeasures are simply things defined as Darkness to that sense (Chaff = Darkness to Radar), and other things that result in good/bad conditions just factor in as mods to the PER roll (firing at a warm object in the arctic = plusses, in the tropics = minuses). Everything else is just a special effect.

 

Possibly add Indirect if you want to fire around corners - I saw a Judge Dredd comic once where he fires a heat-seeking bullet that goes around a corner to hit a perp.

 

"In the beginning, there was darkness. And the darkness was without form, and void. And in addition to the darkness there was also me. And I moved upon the face of the darkness. And I saw that I was alone. Let there be light."

[Dino]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

"Bomb 20. Please return to the bomb bay."

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

An idea I had was to allow the ammo a stat, and if the target dodges then give the ammo a chance to counter his dodge by shifting to hit him after the dodge.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

One thing that might be pertinent to this discussion has been thunking around in my head lately...

 

I've been pondering how to write up a weapon that uses its own OCV, completely apart from the characters OCV, without going the Vehicle/Computer route.

 

It's 'spensive!

I'm not sure I like the current "Decreased OCV is a Side Effects" model thats in place, at least for this application.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

Self-aware ammo could be a pain in the neck. "You know, that chamber was awfully filthy, pal. A very unpleasant place to be. Why didn't you take better care of your gun? You know, rather than chase that guy you shot me at I might just want to turn right around -- you're a lot closer than he is, and he hasn't pissed me off...."

[Lucius]

Re:alizing Self-Awareness

 

From the 07 FEB 2001 strip of my favorite webcomic, Schlock Mercenary, by the brillaint Howard Tayler

 

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20010207.html

 

 

Narrator: There are three bombs on the mercenary cruiser Kitesfear, and they want to blow up. It is their one hope and dream... Their ambition, even.

SmartBomb Yellow: hey... it feels like the ship is moving.

SmartBomb Pink: can't be. the docking clamps haven't blown.

Sign: 007.05

SmartBomb Yellow: well, what about the pressure sensors?

Sign: 006.21

SmartBomb Green: there's a small change, but it's within tolerance.

SmartBomb Yellow: inertial sensors are wiggling a little. this is suspicious. let's blow up.

Sign: 004.53

SmartBomb Pink: we can't just blow up on a whim, you know that.

SmartBomb Yellow: fine. let's vote then.

SmartBomb Green: can I call the roll this time?

Sign: 003.00

SmartBomb Yellow: oh, all right.

SmartBomb Green: we'll have to hurry, though, because the timer runs out in a second and a half.

Sign: 001.38

SmartBomb Pink: you know, we could just wait for the timer.

SmartBomb Yellow: where's the fun in that? I want to exercise a little free will before I go.

SmartBomb Pink: moot point. time's up.

Sign: 000.00

Narrator: Smart-bombs lead such unfulfilling little lives.

 

Footnote: Note:The artificial intelligence community has long protested the use of rational, "thinking" machines as detonators. The war-machine lobby is quite powerful in governments across the galaxy, however, so legislation restricting manufacturers has never been successfully passed. One well-intentioned group of artificial intelligences mounted a huge media campaign: "Truth," they called it. Their public service annoucements targeted young AIs serving as detonators, explaining in uncompromising language that their choices would get them killed, and that there were things the smart-bomb industry just did not want them to know. The campaign was a dismal failure. AIs working as detonators do not get to watch television.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary recalls that at one time, the Air Force discouraged use of the term "smart bomb." They didn't like the implication that other Air Force weapons are stupid.

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

I think the idea that Lucius posted (from Opal) are a good idea, but the idea I have is a sheel is fired from a weapon, This shell then follows a target until it runs out of power (END) and then just fall dead. The shell has a separate attack then "just blow up" - specifically an Cumulative Entangle (Glue Gun).

 

After much deliberation I defined this as a very (very) small vehicle, scaling back the "Size" into a negative a sthe sheel, while large, is no larger than a football (about a foot long - it's a big shell!). I used an AI within the vehicle to define how it would track and chanse a target. Standard PER roll so anything that would distract the Sense Group Sight would distract it as well (this could easly be circumvented by adding in new senses or whatever). Also, defining it as a vehicle allows anyone to attack it and possible destroy the shell before it can complete it's mission.

 

Anywho, here is what I put together - the weapon and the "shell" it summons. All things being equal, this was cheap (3pts!!!!!). Feel free to let me know what you think... in canse you needed permission!

 

Wrapper

The Wrapper is a pistol-like weapon that fires a capsule at a target. The target must be locked on for a Full Turn before the weapon may be fired, as the targeting system must accurately acquire the target. The capsule is fired and speeds towards the target. Once fired the shell moves of its own will, using the limited resources available to it to strike the target.

 

The Wrapper will attack the target when in melee range. It sprays a glue-like substance in the hex of the selected target. The effect is cumulative and is very sticky. If anyone else entered this hex they will also be struck by the effect.

 

The Wrapper will continue to attack until it has exhausted its available ammo. It is has the energy available when it has finished attacking it will attempt to return to the weapon. If the weapon is in the possession of a character they can spend a half action to grab the shell when it returns. Otherwise it will fall silent in the hex where the weapon is located. It will also drop to the ground wherever it runs out of energy.

 

Wrapper (Summon Wrapper Shell (80pts AI Vehicle)) (+1, -8½; 3pts)

Adv: Amicable (Slavishly Loyal (2 Tasks); +1)

Lim: 1 Charge (Recoverable; -1¼), Concentration (½DCV (Full); -1), OAF Pistol (-1), Extra Time (Full Turn; -1), Limited Task Options (Attack Target, Follow Target, Return to Character; -2), Required Hands (2-Handed; -½), Requires Skill Roll (Sight-Based PER Roll to Target; -¾), STR Minimum (10; Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1)

 

Vehicle

Score Characteristics Cost Points

-4 Size ×5 -20

-10 Strength ×1 --

10 Dexterity ×3 --

6 Body ×2 --

6 DEF ×3 12

3.0 Speed (2.0) ×10 10

0†Run ×2 -12

0†Swim ×1 -2

Total: -12

 

Targeting AI

Score Characteristics Cost Points

3 Intelligence ×1 -7

0 Ego ×2 --

13- Perception ×3 12

3.0 Speed (2.0) ×10 10

Total: 15

 

Powers and Skills

Powers (END)

Internal Power (END Reserve (30 END, 0 REC)) (-1¼; 1pt)

Lim: Side Effect (3d6 BODY Drain; Specific Act (at 0 END); -¼), Unusable Until Fully Charge (-1)

Fired Shell (6†Flight) (-¼; 10pts) (END:1)

Lim: Non Noncombat Movement (-¼), Uses END Reserve (-0)

Hard to Hit (Combat Skill Levels: DCV vs. All (+4 DCV))

Wrap Glue (1d6 Entangle) (+10pts, +2, -1; 35pts) (END:6)

Add: Stops A Given Sense (Sight Group; +10pts)

Adv: Area of Effect (Hex; +½), Cannot Be Escaped with Teleportation (+¼), Cumulative (Up to 6d6; +1¼), Sticky (+½)

Lim: Can Be Dispelled (-¼), Cannot Form Barriers (-¼), No Range (-½) Uses END Reserve (-0)

 

Cost Skills

6 Combat Skill: Wrap Glue (+3 OCV)

 

Disadvantages

Cost Disadvantages

10 Physical Limitation: Diminutive (¼†Length (~1ft in length); +6†Knockback) (Frequently, Slightly)

15 Physical Limitation: Only Has Sense of Sight (All the time, Slightly) - this is only "Slightly" as the shell does nothing else so the loss of the other senses aren't as important.

[dbsousa]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

Isn't the vehicle model for smart ammo predicated on the idea that there are targets that can outrun bullets?

 

Outside of ship to ship, this seems absurd to me...

[Mazeus Xenon]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

Makes sense but not exactly what I was looking for with the final effect...

 

I never wanted this shell to be as fast as a bullet - just a mechanism for deliing the attack. It also allows the target or others to attack the shell directly and destroy it. It I just wanted a fast, smart bullet, then I would pump the OCV and be done with it!

(and love your auto-sig, dbsousa!!)

[Lethosos]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

...the first thing that came to mind are the PeBo Bullets, from Gold Digger.

 

Think miniaturized self-propelled smart bombs with a very narrow range of intelligence. The first time she used PeBo Bullets, they were set to find and explode onto people that are "bad."

[Old Man]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

+OCV works' date=' but it doesn't let you work out fun sequences of trying to evade a persistent seeking weapon and/or trying to decoy it into hitting something else.[/quote']

 

Or convincing it that it really wants to slam itself into the big nasty armored behemoth.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

...the first thing that came to mind are the PeBo Bullets, from Gold Digger.

 

Think miniaturized self-propelled smart bombs with a very narrow range of intelligence. The first time she used PeBo Bullets, they were set to find and explode onto people that are "bad."

which would be bad news for poorly-housetrained guard puppies.

 

"Bad dog! wait, what's that?"

 

BOOM!

 

"Damn, that's a shame, Rexy."

 

Here's a nasty variant: set up a "smart gun" with sound detection that, when it hears a certain common word in the enemy language of the war you are fighting, automatically homes in and opens fire on whoever spoke it.

 

Better switch it off somehow before you enter an area full of non-combatants who happen to speak the same language, and none of your own troops must ever say the word. EVER. And it will have to be a word that is so common that enemy troops MUST use it sooner or later for basic communication.

[Guest Schwarzwald]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

...the first thing that came to mind are the PeBo Bullets, from Gold Digger.

 

Think miniaturized self-propelled smart bombs with a very narrow range of intelligence. The first time she used PeBo Bullets, they were set to find and explode onto people that are "bad."

 

Check out the movie "Runaway" with tom selleck and gene simmons.

[JohnTaber]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

Area of Effect (One Hex, Accurate +1/2) will make your ammo sentient enough to get by in most cases. The +1/2 is fairly cheap, and it reduces your targets DCV to 3. Done. If you start building summons, et al, you get much too complex for what you want, which is hyper-accurate ammunition. This is the best most efficient way to do it.

 

Then, if you still want to add OCV levels to it, you aren't starting from scratch; your target starts life at DCV 3, and then must dodge or use DCV levels. Much more efficient.

 

I agree. This is the way I have done it. A neat special effect is that you can shoot at a corner and get someone on the other side. Also dive for cover can make the bullet miss, etc. It works really well.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Self-Aware Ammo

 

I was just thinking...most of the non-Summon approaches still only give the bullet or projectile or what-have-you one chance to hit...it doens't get to turn around, make another attack, and so on. So what about this:

 

If the bullet can make several attacks, buy the Autofire advantage to represent how much "fuel" it has for trying again. If it has enough fuel for 3 passes, buy Autofire:3 and so on. This isn't actually an Autofire attack, but the costing scheme gives a basis from which to start.

 

Now the Autofire advantage itself is going to have a few modifiers added to it. First it needs one to modify the way it works differently from a standard Autofire; something like "If an attack misses, roll another attack roll if there are Autofire shots remaining unused; any attack roll that hits automatically turns off any remaining Autofire shots (+0)" (In my view, this would be a push -- you're trading the chance to hit multiple times for a chance to turn a miss into a hit.)

 

You'd probably also need Uncontrolled and/or Continuous.

 

Next, apply Gradual Effect so that each attack roll occurs in a seperate Phase.

 

If you really wanted, you could also buy some pluses to OCV also with "Gradual Effect": if the attack misses, the next time the attack is made, the OCV goes up by +1, up to the max number of OCV levels you bought; this represents the targeting system of the projectile learning from its mistakes, learning the reactions and reflexes of its target.

 

And, unlike the Summon approach, the projectile can be Missile Deflected as a default.

 

That gives rise to an interesting scene:

 

The projectile is fired, homing in on its target, who has Missile Deflection. The target successfully Deflects it, so the projectile swings around to try again, and again...and against each successive attack, as the bullet gets better (assuming the pluses to OCV were bought) the Missile Deflector gets worse (-2 to each successive attack)...can he hold out long enough for the projectile to run out of fuel...?