Eosin Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 I have been doing some research for The Last Dominion setting and it got me to thinking. The works of sci-fi and fantasy are filled with dozens of examples of Elder Races (also called Pariah Elite). Examples include the obvious Tolkien Elves; Robert Jordan’s Aes Sedai; Vulcans from Trek; Mimbari and Vorlons from Babylon 5. Less obvious examples include Merlin, Yoda, and many depictions of Vampires. In other words, the folks with the cool toys. It is often lamented in RPG circles that so and so is an “elf-boy†or other unsavory terms to indicate that a person has an affinity for playing one of these elite characters but that they basically play them as a human with pointy ears. My thoughts meandered down several paths leading to the following questions. 1. What do other gamemasters do to make these elite characters “special†in a group of equals? 2. What can characters do to create the air of an elder race without resorting to simple arrogance? 3. Do you think these types of characters can mix with a party of otherwise normal folks. 4. Do Elder Races add or detract from RPGs? 5. What is your favorite Elder Race and why do you like them? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... To tell you the truth, I think that most "elder race" types function better as NPCs (or even enemies). Almost by definition they have greater knowledge and power than the younger/mortal peoples, and if you want them to have the proper aura of wisdom and experience they can't really mingle with the "kids," or function at their level of competence. That said, it's certainly possible to have "younger Elders" - those who are relative striplings among their kind, or rebels and outcasts from their societies. These can be less prepossessing than the major Elves, Vulcans etc. I use two methods to set members of these races apart from their associates in adventuring groups. One way is to give them minor abilities that may occasionally be useful, but more often simply reinforce their alienness compared to their comrades. The Vulcan mind-meld ability is useless in a combat situation, while their extra inner eyelids are only helpful when exposed to extreme light. Elves may be able to walk on top of the snow, and to "sleep" and dream while awake and functioning, but that won't help them kill orcs. The other way is to posit a different mindset based on the alien qualities of the race, and roleplay that mindset during the game. Again with the previous examples, Vulcan logic and emotionlessness, or Elven bonds to nature and weariness from their long exile, make them distinct. For a game you really need a roleplayer who can get into the appropriate mindset; and the less anthropomorphic the race is, the greater the leap of imagination required. My personal favorite Elder Race is the Vorlons from B5. To me they epitomize this type of being as an NPC: powerful, mysterious, with an air of danger about them; probably benevolent, but with their own agenda that lesser creatures are not privy to; sometimes dispensing helpful but cryptic advice, but rarely directly involving themselves in the conflicts of younger races. When they do offer to help directly, there's usually a price, and consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legiokot Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... 1. I give them a skill, usually 10-, that lets them just... know something occasionally, or maybe use a small one time race-based power. 2. Describe that their eyes seem to betray an ancient wisdom, animals seem to respect the Elder more, they don't get bitten by insects, they never have to clean themselves, anything that makes them seem more. 3. I usually don't allow PC's to play them, unless it's a... young.. Elder. It gives the player too much superiority over the other players. From what I've seen, it also creates too much reliance on the Elder's powers and heritage. 4. If handled carefully, they add. If tossed in as a solve-all, be-all, uber race that could do just about anything, they suck. 5. Mri, from the Faded Sun trilogy by C. J. Cherryh. They're powerful enough that in the books they're talked about in that no human would ever want to fight one on-on-one. But.. they're not overpowered. They have a huge honor system, which also adds to the mystery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... I think a classic example of a elder race in fantasy is Elric of Melnibone.. Currently I do have an elf in the group - but he's a young orphan and doesn't count (growing up in a human city). The closest to an elder race is the feline kartaran - and the mystique of her elder race is well represented as the mystique of the orientals to western eyes. Hints at age old traditions and deeper culture that the rest of the PCs can only wonder about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... I think the ultimate example of an "Elder Race" is Niven's Pak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... Only the Protector class though - the Breeder class were almost non-sentient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... I pretty much treat them in the same way that I treat the difference between a "normal" PC and a barbarian...more advanced culture, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... I generally go with the "stripling" approach to PC 'elders'. Its the way I find most reasonable to explain why they arent built on the number of points a being who has been gaining experience and knowledge for several millenia would be. Even then, they can still be difficult to afford, if the 'every elf' (or whatever) package is too extensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... The works of sci-fi and fantasy are filled with dozens of examples of Elder Races (also called Pariah Elite). Examples include the obvious Tolkien Elves; Robert Jordan’s Aes Sedai; Vulcans from Trek; Mimbari and Vorlons from Babylon 5. Less obvious examples include Merlin, Yoda, and many depictions of Vampires. Well, let's see ... Elves: Not really an elder race as I see them. They may live a long time, but in games I'm in or run, they haven't existed any longer than humans have; there've just been fewer generations of them. Given that Elves mature physically only slightly slower than humans (they may hit puberty at, say, 18-20 rather than 14-15), then the 'slow aging' factor kicks in, there's no real reason an Elf would be that much more all-that than a human (at least as starting characters), and even an older elf wouldn't have access to many more knowledges than a human, since both races have been around for the same length of time and lived through the same disasters and omens and what not. Vulcans: Unless you're running a Pre-Original-Series game, the Vulcans just have nice stats, psionic powers, and that eyelid thing. After they gave Earth Warp-Drive, things evened out nicely. Yoda: Too powerful for a PC (unless everybody is a Jedi Master, of course), although individual members of his race might not be, though to my knowledge it's never even been said what the $*@( he is. He's more or less a plot device. Merlin and Vampires have got too many incarnations and variables to really pin down, and I have either not heard of, or never cared about, anything else on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... Well...I take more of a Realpolitik approach...if the "Elder Race" in question really was BETTER as opposed to just having more "time on station" as it were, then they would likely be in control unless there was a really good reason why they weren't, such as being decimated by a war, natural disaster, pestilence, or the like. A classic trope here is that Elder Race X once ruled the [continent|world|galaxy|universe] and had vastly superior [magic|technology|culture|knowledge|multi-select] but [were wiped out|died off|mysteriously departed|turned on themselves] and left [nothing|mysterious artifacts|ruins|lore|heritage / lineage|a malign / benign legacy|devolved / less capable survivors] behind. For instance, the Tolkein Elves once were the shiznit, had vastly superior magic, culture, and knowledge, are in the process of mysteriously departing, and they have left behind some artifacts, ruins, lore, a lineage of a few humans with some elven blood that live longer and do great things, and temporarily at least their less savvy "sylvan" and "avari" cousins. Usually its a good idea to demonstrate that its not so much that they are SUPERIOR as that they are just DIFFERENT, and I think that is an important distinction to make. Members of the Elder Race might be arrogant or not, or put on airs or not, but under the hood they should have some serious cons to cancel out any pros. There should be tradeoffs. A common way of contrasting an Elder race is that they are more conservative, static, hidebound, inflexible, and / or not as adaptable as younger and more dynamic races. This plays well on the basic American mentality that older does not equal better and general focus on the present rather than the past or future and is very sympathetic to young audiences in general who are generally impatient with the longer view often held by older folks. Age dynamics are something that everyone experiences in everyday life unless they are in an unusual situation where they only interact with people of roughly their own age and outlook, and thus it is easily catalyzed at a semi-conscious or entirely sub-conscious level. Another way is to make sure to give near-equal playing time to their con's and limitations as you do to their strengths. This helps to bely / contrast / undercut their pros and prevent the perception of their competancy from being unleavened with a grain of reservation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethosos Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... Dragons. More specifically, the Great Elder Wyrms variety. These suckers are old, even by elven standards. They've seen it all, and work in power schemes against each other that are levels way higher than most people can comprehend. They can manipulate societies like water, for they have planted the seeds of their involvement when it was nothing more than a small hamlet in the wilderness. They can call on power that feels god-like in comparison. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. Who knows what can happen if they work together? I think that promoting an Elder race is a matter of scope. They, and those before them, are steeped in history and secrets that give them a unique perspective of the world around them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted June 16, 2006 Report Share Posted June 16, 2006 Re: Elder Races... I'm partial to Great Old Ones, myself, but I'm not sure I'd let anyone play one as a PC.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: Elder Races... Surgically alter the players to resemble the Elder Race they're attempting to portray. You can get that "pointy eared elf" effect with an exacto knife, a vice, some ice and a sewing kit. A good file will do for the pointy teeth crowd. Slit pupil races can be tricky. You'll be amazed how few people want to play Hobbits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted June 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: Elder Races... Well, let's see ... Elves: Not really an elder race as I see them.... snip Elder Race and Priah Elite are literary jargon defining indentifible aspects of the fantasy genere - much like Hidden King, Cursed Wanderer, or Ugly Duckling. Elves are the poster child for Elder Race. Typically, in fantasy lit, the Elder Races are plot devices cafefully constrained by the writer. RPGs include them as staples but without the leash of writers perogative. (See your point on Yoda.) My ramblings are a clumsy attempt to hone in on what tricks make them unique while remaining playable. Sorry if the original question was confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted June 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: Elder Races... A classic trope here is that Elder Race X once ruled the [continent|world|galaxy|universe] and had vastly superior [magic|technology|culture|knowledge|multi-select] but [were wiped out|died off|mysteriously departed|turned on themselves] and left [nothing|mysterious artifacts|ruins|lore|heritage / lineage|a malign / benign legacy|devolved / less capable survivors] behind. That's about as succinct as I have seen it put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: Elder Races... No problem. Ive given the topic a fair amount of thought in the past myself, and its one of the reasons I was so careful to make the "elder races" parrallels in the World of San'Dora powerful but also bearing serious (and I mean SERIOUS) hindrances. Such as the Haelfinan's (Elves) extreme and potentially lethal allergy to ferrous metals, and the Var's (Dwarves) physical dependence on contact with the ground. http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/SanDoraInhabitants_Haelfinan_Haelfinan.shtml http://www.killershrike.com/SanDora/SanDoraInhabitants_Var_Var_Marchog.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlHazred Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: Elder Races... An Elder Race PC? No problem. It's all in how you play it. I play an Atlantean in a Rifts Hero game. Here's an immortal member of an ancient race that's almost extinct. He's had hundreds of lifetimes to learn wisdom. And he's the only member of the group without a special magical/psionic/whatever power. But you can pull off the mystique with proper roleplaying. 1. None of your best ideas should be commonplace. Consider outlandish ideas and figure out ways to make them work. Consider schemes that wouldn't ever occur to other players - even if they won't help, they'll cement the alienness of your character's thought process. 2. Maxims are your friend. Learn a bunch and use them appropriately. 3. Always remember that your character knows he's better than the others, just by virtue of being born into his race. On the other hand (for "good" Elder Races) he feels an incredibly deep compassion and pity for the "younger" races, and probably feels the need to guide. Done just right, this is really good for RP. Done wrong, you will annoy the crap out of the other players and they may try to murder your character in his sleep (assuming he does sleep). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: Elder Races... Dragons. More specifically' date=' the Great Elder Wyrms variety. These suckers are [i']old[/i], even by elven standards. They've seen it all, and work in power schemes against each other that are levels way higher than most people can comprehend. They can manipulate societies like water, for they have planted the seeds of their involvement when it was nothing more than a small hamlet in the wilderness. They can call on power that feels god-like in comparison. One of the very few things I liked in the Shadowrun scifi/fantasy background was the use of dragons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: Elder Races... I poke them with sticks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: Elder Races... It's a dieing trade - the Dragon Taunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale A. Ward Posted June 17, 2006 Report Share Posted June 17, 2006 Re: Elder Races... It's a dieing trade - the Dragon Taunter Most dragons think it's not dying fast enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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