Elves

[Lucius]

Re: Elves

 

Standard folklore for elves' date=' or for something that we've come to associate / confuse / conflate with elves?[/quote']

 

I thought we'd established that association/confusion/conflation IS pretty standard for folklore?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary jests that it often seems standard for Lucius

[Markdoc]

Re: Elves

 

I thought we'd established that association/confusion/conflation IS pretty standard for folklore?

 

Yeah. I always get mild amusement from people who say "elves are really .." or "dwarves are really..." even if we skip lightly over the fact that we're talking about fictional critters here, until the last few decades, there *was* no fixed concept of what an elf or dwarf actually was (and outside the RPG/geek community, there likely still isn't - if you asked my mother what an elf was, she'd likely tell you a tiny person who sleeps in flowers and drinks dew).

 

Tolkein's elves were taller and stronger than humans - and apparently generally smarter and more magical as well - but basically human (they could interbreed, after all). In english folklore, they could be big scary monsters, beauteous humanoids, malformed servants of the devil - or little people, a few inches tall, nut brown and wrinkly, either with or without insect wings, or.... In Runequest, elves grow out of seeds planted in the ground, while in Scandanavian folklore, elves are generally short, brown and hairy - and sometimes have tails (they are often hard to tell apart from trolls (which are themselves hard to define being large or small, sometimes hairy, sometimes not, occasionally human, but often not, etc, etc) or nisse (sort of pixies...).

 

Given that all of these are fictional, one is no more canon than the other.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lucius]

Re: Elves

 

But to address the iron question, it is a very widespread folk belief that iron repels faeries or whatever the local name is for such uncanny beings. Among Arabs for example there is a tradition that iron repels Djinn.

 

Iron is also supposed to dispel glamors in British folklore.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary suggests that it may be because smiths are supposed to have their own, Human, magick and that it stands opposed to non-Human powers.

[Markdoc]

Re: Elves

 

Actually this reminds me of an amusing conversation I had with a Danish friend a couple of years back.

 

I asked her what "Nisse" were (Nisse are the elf-like folk that help Santa Claus* and also fill the role of house-elf in scandanavian folklore that brownies do in english). We were speaking english and she replied that nisse were elves. I then switched to danish and asked the same question - at which point she couldn't tell me they were elves because danish also has the word "Elves" and it made no sense to say that nisse were elves when they are clearly two different things.

 

We settled for "like nisse, but different" - although nobody could identify exactly how or why different

 

I escaped ire from my teasing by pointing out that I was interested in scandanavian folklore. Scandanavians, for all their success on the social and economic planes, retain a certain lack of self confidence - as a general rule, they are almost pathetically grateful for any expression of interest in local culture or history by foreigners.

 

cheers, Mark

 

*as an aside, at Christmas, I've noticed nisse outnumber the baby jesus about 100 to 1...

[Markdoc]

Re: Elves

 

The palindromedary suggests that it may be because smiths are supposed to have their own' date=' Human, magick and that it stands opposed to non-Human powers.[/quote']

 

There may be something to this - iron (in a recognisable form) is very rare and in early indo-european cultures was a closely guarded (hence magical) secret. The early Romans, for example forbade the use of iron in their temples. Iron was also supposed to be sovereign protection against witches (which I suppose it was, if applied in a sharp format). And in the early iron age, it made a valuable sacrifice (hence the custom of burying something iron under the hearth of a new home, putting something iron over the door or sacrificing iron items after a battle).

 

It's not universal though - in Ethiopia (where a lot of people still take witches seriously) silver fills in all the roles that iron does in english folklore.

 

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Elves

 

There may be something to this - iron (in a recognisable form) is very rare and in early indo-european cultures was a closely guarded (hence magical) secret. The early Romans, for example forbade the use of iron in their temples. Iron was also supposed to be sovereign protection against witches (which I suppose it was, if applied in a sharp format). And in the early iron age, it made a valuable sacrifice (hence the custom of burying something iron under the hearth of a new home, putting something iron over the door or sacrificing iron items after a battle).

 

It's not universal though - in Ethiopia (where a lot of people still take witches seriously) silver fills in all the roles that iron does in english folklore.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Not to mention that Iron is subject to magnetisim, which looks a whole lot like magic (This metal has theLove of Iron in it...), and iron weapons and armor, to a bronze age culture, are hideously, nigh magically, effective

[Susano]

Re: Elves

 

There may be something to this - iron (in a recognisable form) is very rare and in early indo-european cultures was a closely guarded (hence magical) secret. The early Romans, for example forbade the use of iron in their temples. Iron was also supposed to be sovereign protection against witches (which I suppose it was, if applied in a sharp format). And in the early iron age, it made a valuable sacrifice (hence the custom of burying something iron under the hearth of a new home, putting something iron over the door or sacrificing iron items after a battle).

 

It's not universal though - in Ethiopia (where a lot of people still take witches seriously) silver fills in all the roles that iron does in english folklore.

 

While reading GURPS Celtic Myth, I recall mention of this idea -- smiths are magical, or at least, can forge magical weapons and items with the right spells and incantations.

[JackValhalla]

Re: Elves

 

Ahem- *topic*

 

On an elf-related note, there were some distinctly fae creatures in my fantasy setting. They were extremely elf-like in appearance, uncannily so. Only elves themselves could distinguish them. They were fond of the forests, especially the thick parts eternally shrouded in mist, where not even elves would go. They could disappear into mist invisibly, and could teleport if nobody was watching. They also habitually shrank themselves to about knee-high to spy on folks. They were not a playable race, and communicating with them at all was nigh impossible, they just giggled and vanished. They were mischevious, but they were very shy.

Here's the catch: Everyone thought that elves had to be descended from these fae folk, maybe bred with humans in time long past. The elves would deny that hotly. Not the human part... they were more willing to be considered half-human than half-fae. Some cultural thing, elves and fae folk hated each other on sight. As far as everyone else was concerned, that made it more likely that they were related. But you could really start a fight with an elf if you push that subject for more than a few seconds.

 

So, in addition to playable elves, you could say that I also had a elf-like race, inherently magical, that was all full of whim and wonder and all that stuff. And they were a huge pain in the a$$ for everyone.

[Markdoc]

Re: Elves

 

So' date=' in addition to playable elves, you could say that I also had a elf-like race, inherently magical, that was all full of whim and wonder and all that stuff. And they were a huge pain in the a$$ for everyone.[/quote']

 

In traditional D & D, that role was filled by those *****ing pixies!

 

Good character/evil character - I hated those little suckers.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Elves

 

While reading GURPS Celtic Myth' date=' I recall mention of this idea -- smiths are magical, or at least, can forge magical weapons and items with the right spells and incantations.[/quote']

 

Same was true in traditional japanese culture as well.

 

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Re: Elves

 

Same was true in traditional japanese culture as well.

 

Heh... that's true. The smith who made Usagi's swords was dressed as a Shinto priest, IIRC.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Elves

 

 

*as an aside, at Christmas, I've noticed nisse outnumber the baby jesus about 100 to 1...

 

That's to make it a fair fight.

[Cancer]

Re: Elves

 

From one of the original Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies, and Munchkins lists...

Favorite Kind of Elf:

Real Men like the Pini's elves

Real Role-Players like Tolkien's elves

Loonies like Santa's elves

Munchkins like Storm Giants with pointed ears

 

That's dated 1996, so it's pre-LOTR movies. It might be altered nowadays.

[Lemurion]

Re: Elves

 

I'm not doing much fantasy gaming these days, but my elves are rather sidhe-like. I prefer the iron allergy because it does help differentiate the psychology. It's also why I prefer elves to be immortal. Most games don't last long enough for lifespan to be a real problem, but the psychology of immortality would be totally different from the psychology of any mortal.

 

For me, that's the real hook for any non-human PC race. They have to think in a fundamentally different way or there's no point playing anything but a human.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Elves

 

From one of the original Real Men' date=' Real Roleplayers, Loonies, and Munchkins[/url'] lists...

 

"Real Men like the Pini's elves"

 

That's dated 1996, so it's pre-LOTR movies. It might be altered nowadays.

I'm almost afraid to ask... What's a Pini's elf?

[Lucius]

Re: Elves

 

I'm almost afraid to ask... What's a Pini's elf?

 

A reference to the Elves of "Elfquest" by Richard and Wendy Pini (I hope I got the names right.)

 

It was a comic book series of extraordinary quality. If you haven't seen it, you don't know what you're missing.

 

The major protagonist Elf was the leader of a tribe of Elves who rode wolves.

 

I'm tempted to tell you some of the reasons it's so great, but I don't want to spoil it for anyone who might go out and read it now. Assuming it can still be found.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary recalls that in the Torah it also warns that the altar must not be touched with a tool of iron, for that would pollute it. Very interesting.

[Lezentauw]

Re: Elves

 

Interesting. Only Humans are allowed martial arts in mine.

 

The main reason that I only allow Elves to have MAs, is that it is nothing for an elf to spend 60 year of his childhood learning how to "properly" shoot a bow. There was an old English saying that it took three generations to get a good archer with a longbow. An elf can achieve that before they hit puberty... I also view the elves that train to be warriors, similiar to the Samurai, they just have a lot longer to practice...

 

The other reason that I do this, is sort of a campaign explanation. In order for elves to hold of hordes of goblinoids, they have to use better tactics and be better trained.

 

For this racial advantage, elves have to deal with being discriminated against.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Elves

 

A reference to the Elves of "Elfquest" by Richard and Wendy Pini (I hope I got the names right.)

Yes, I remember Elfquest. I didn't remember the name of the author(s). I never finished the series. I agree it was pretty good. The elves seemed like a much more balanced PC race for roleplaying than Tolkien's.

 

The palindromedary recalls that in the Torah it also warns that the altar must not be touched with a tool of iron, for that would pollute it. Very interesting.

That is because iron is used to make intruments of war. The altar is for making peace.

[Lucius]

Re: Elves

 

Yes, I remember Elfquest. I didn't remember the name of the author(s). I never finished the series. I agree it was pretty good. The elves seemed like a much more balanced PC race for roleplaying than Tolkien's.

 

 

That is because iron is used to make intruments of war. The altar is for making peace.

 

Very good point. Iron corresponds to the planet/God/idea of Mars, just as silver corresponds to the Moon and gold to the Sun.

 

And the Sidhe/Fae were often called "The People of Peace" as well as "The Good Neighbors."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary points out that those expressions, like "The Little People" are euphemisms, expressing more of hope than of description - and if the Sidhe are vulnerable to iron, as lycanthropes are to silver, doesn't that suggest they are exceptionally under the influence of Mars?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Elves

 

"Beat your swords into plowshares, 'cause when you hit a man with a plowshare, he knows he's been hit."

[Kristopher]

Re: Elves

 

I've never understood the concept of elves or other long-lived races taking most of a human lifetime to reach adulthood. Even if they physically matured that slowly, they'd be nothing like humans at any comparable stage of physical development past "4" or so, simply because an elf "10 year old" would actually have decades of life and experience than a human 10 year old does not have.

 

But the idea of physically maturing that slowly makes no sense to begin with.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Elves

 

I've never understood the concept of elves or other long-lived races taking most of a human lifetime to reach adulthood. Even if they physically matured that slowly, they'd be nothing like humans at any comparable stage of physical development past "4" or so, simply because an elf "10 year old" would actually have decades of life and experience than a human 10 year old does not have.

 

But the idea of physically maturing that slowly makes no sense to being with.

 

That's one of the reasons that I always preferred the Pini-style elves. Their children aged at the same rate as humans up until they reached puberty, then the rate slowed to "the long golden afternoon" of elven maturity ((Apologies to Wendy and Richard if I misquoted slightly)).

[Lucius]

Re: Elves

 

Well, there is an old folktale about a changeling...

 

For those who don't know, a "changeling" is when a Human child has been taken away and a Faerie child (or sometimes something else, like a block of wood disguised by glamor) left in its place. Usually it's supposed to be infants.

 

In this story, the parents who suspected this had happenned were instructed by the local wise woman or cunning man to brew ale in an eggshell, and let the baby see what they were doing. The baby watched, eyes getting wider and wider, until it exclaimed "I am old and old; I have seen three forests grow and wither, but never have I seen ale brewed in an eggshell." Whereupon, perhaps because it knew that in being startled into speaking it had given away the deception, it vanished up the chimney. I'm afraid I don't recall that they got the original baby back, but they certainly ended the changeling's charade.

 

I doubt the same trick would work anymore; but a modern home probably has plenty of gadgets and wonders and things to see and do that would be just as strange even to someone who had seen three forests grow and wither.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary keeps talking me out of posting Elfquest spoilers....

[Manic Typist]

Re: Elves

 

Why not just keep the changeling as their kid?

 

Wait... 'cause they don't want to pay for college?

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Elves

 

A reference to the Elves of "Elfquest" by Richard and Wendy Pini (I hope I got the names right.)

 

It was a comic book series of extraordinary quality. If you haven't seen it, you don't know what you're missing.

 

The major protagonist Elf was the leader of a tribe of Elves who rode wolves.

 

I'm tempted to tell you some of the reasons it's so great, but I don't want to spoil it for anyone who might go out and read it now. Assuming it can still be found.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary recalls that in the Torah it also warns that the altar must not be touched with a tool of iron, for that would pollute it. Very interesting.

They're actually reprinting them in digest form. I saw them at the comic store a couple of years ago, so they must be getting up there in volumes.