Elves

[Cantriped]

Re: Elves

 

"Elves are teh shiznit!!!!11 Legolas WHOOOOOO!!!!!1111"

And Stuff...

Uhm...

Yeah I've got nothin.

[Vondy]

Re: Elves

 

Do you have Elves in your fantasy world? If you do' date=' what are they like?[/quote']

 

All elves must be eaten!

 

I did run a highly praised "elven campaign" with a fully worked out mythos and backstory - and it was an earth-shaking hanging' with the gods type of game - but in general I avoid elves and dwarves like the plague. And hobbits, and Helves (half-elves). And the next person who wants to run an elf or mentions the word Sindarin, Eldar, or Quenya in my hyborian style game will be eaten rare at the table in front of the other players to build deterrence. And God help them if they use the word Drow...

 

I am not a Tolkein fan - and high fantasy isn't my thing. I've read a bit and it doesn't do it for me. On the other hand, a "norse myths are real" Viking style game could be fun to play in. So would an "arthurian legend" game, or any number of fantasy variations. Still, I try to stick to quasi-historical games, pulp-fantasy, and swords and sorcery. Basically: humans rule.

 

Oh, and elves go good with a large coke, a side of slaty fries, and tartar sauce.

[Vondy]

Re: Elves

 

 

The actual Elves themselves are largely innocent, but get caught in the crossfire.

 

I find, once mowed down in the cross-fire, they cook up well on the barbeque.

[Vondy]

Re: Elves

 

It's not suprising. You mentioned earlier that you don't read fantasy literature. I presume it means you aren't familiar with many of the tropes of the genre and the source material used by game designers. Tolkein (for example) is basically the equivalent to fantasy as Asimov is to science fiction. Classic foundational stuff from which many modern things are derived. In almost exactly the same way that D&D is the foundation of roleplaying.

 

In some cases, they are based on even earlier literature such as mythology.

 

And just like someone who has read a lot of science fiction literature and figured out that there is more than one literary god among the sci-fi writers, and more than one style/genre/approach to science fiction, so it is with fantasy. Its for that reason I get the impression that a lot of RPG designers (and gamers) haven't read that much fantasy fiction. Or looked beyond the high-fatasy offerings to see what else the genre has on hand. Tolkein's contribution is the 800 pound marketing gorilla, but there are a number of other big guns, and fantasy, even today, isn't limited to high fantasy. Howard and Moorcock come to mind, among others.

[Susano]

Re: Elves

 

And the next person who wants to run an elf or mentions the word Sindarin' date=' Eldar, or Quenya in my hyborian style game will be eaten rare at the table in front of the other players to build deterrence. And God help them if they use the word Drow... [/quote']

 

If you want Elves in Hyboria, just do what REH did -- use Picts.

[Vondy]

Re: Elves

 

If you want Elves in Hyboria' date=' just do what REH did -- use Picts.[/quote']

 

Yes, he had an odd notion of "picts," especially as they were portrayed in the Kull, Bran Mak Morn, and Cormac Mac Art stories. But, still: they weren't pointy eared norse mythology rip-offs doing the RuPaul.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Elves

 

If you want Elves in Hyboria' date=' just do what REH did -- use Picts.[/quote']

 

Picts are way cooler than elves.

[Vondy]

Re: Elves

 

Picts are way cooler than elves.

 

 

Waaaaay cooler.

 

Though, to be honest, I've played (and enjoyed) ElfQuest.

[Lemurion]

Re: Elves

 

Now you have me cursing myself for not picking up Valdorian Age yesterday. Good Swords and Sorcery type stuff.

 

Oh well, maybe next week

[assault]

Re: Elves

 

Yes' date=' he had an odd notion of "picts," especially as they were portrayed in the Kull, Bran Mak Morn, and Cormac Mac Art stories. But, still: they weren't pointy eared norse mythology rip-offs doing the RuPaul. [/quote']

 

You're not kidding about his odd notion of "Picts". A more historical version would be to portray them as Scotsmen. But that would bring them closer to being DnD Dwarves.

 

Or Orcs. Any bunch of hillbillies who raid "civilised" lands are potential Orcs.

 

This applies in the Middle East too.

[Kristopher]

Re: Elves

 

You're not kidding about his odd notion of "Picts". A more historical version would be to portray them as Scotsmen. But that would bring them closer to being DnD Dwarves.

 

Or Orcs. Any bunch of hillbillies who raid "civilised" lands are potential Orcs.

 

This applies in the Middle East too.

 

What did he portray Picts as?

[Kenn]

Re: Elves

 

It seems some GMs include elves in their campaign world just to prove they aren't biased against elves. It's a form of Tolkienism.

[assault]

Re: Elves

 

What did he portray Picts as?

 

See: http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/robertehoward/branmakmorn1.html

 

Looking at it, aspects of his presentation do seem to have precedents. Still strange, though.

[tkdguy]

Re: Elves

 

A few thoughts, from serious to silly:

 

Using Picts instead of elves: I had thought of doing something like that. I also planned to use Scythians like orcs.

 

Elfquest rpg: I enjoyed that one. I even had a campaign about the Wolfriders' descendants (this was years before the Pinis made them time travel). Since Star Trek TNG was still new, and a bunch of TV series added "The Next Generation" to the titles, I decided to call the campaign "Elfquest: The Next Generation."

 

As for elven immortality and death in battle, I'll take a page from Mel Brooks' History of the World.

 

(A group of elves stand over one of their fallen brethren.)

 

Narrator: As elves are naturally immortal, death occurs only through battle or mishap. Therefore, they regard death with a sense of awe.

 

Elves (looking at the dead elf): AWWWWW!!

[Vestnik]

Re: Elves

 

I knew a linguist when I was in grad school whose master's thesis was on Pictish.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Elves

 

See: http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/robertehoward/branmakmorn1.html

 

Looking at it, aspects of his presentation do seem to have precedents. Still strange, though.

 

Howard played pretty loose with history anyway. Ignoring for a moment the unhistorical aspect of the concept of a Hyborian Age, Howard had Conan's people becoming the ancestors of several cultures, including the Irish, the Welsh, and the Sumerians. The first two aren't a stretch, taken together, but that last one is wtd territory, imo.

[Markdoc]

Re: Elves

 

Oh' date=' and elves go good with a large coke, a side of slaty fries, and tartar sauce.[/quote']

 

Prefer a less "horsey-tasting" sauce myself, given that the meat is mild in flavour. I recommend a salad and crisp chablis with elf.

 

cheers, Mark

[assault]

Re: Elves

 

Prefer a less "horsey-tasting" sauce myself' date=' given that the meat is mild in flavour. [/quote']

 

That depends on whether or not you use real Tartars.

 

Personally, I've always preferred Mongolian Lamb to Mongolian Horse...

[Markdoc]

Re: Elves

 

If you want Elves in Hyboria' date=' just do what REH did -- use Picts.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but that brings back to about page 3 in this thread where I commented that since Dwarves were essentially short vikings and elves were tree-hugger with bows and halflings were underage kleptomaniacs that if I already had viking-like cultures and tree-huggers with bows and kleptomaniacs that I didn't *need* a whole race to fill in that niche.

 

Better, because the stereotype of these races is so deeply ingrained, if I had a human culture which filled that role*, it was much easier to warp it into something closer to what I wanted (plus I get the bonus of not having to worry where all these distinct races come from).

 

How many game-worlds have you seen with 4 or 5 (or 20) distinct human cultures and then "an elven culture" and "a dwarven culture". D20 made a valiant (but doomed) effort to get away from this, but just made the problem worse by giving us 16 different elven races (or something - it's been a a while since I looked at FR). How that works, given their generation time, I have no idea.

 

Now if you *want* to run a game where you simply want D & D dwarves and elves, go for it: it's just like using a pregenerated world. Not every GM has the time or the desire to work everything up themselves, nor is it necessary for a fun game.

 

cheers, Mark

 

*strangely enough, now that I think about it, one of the human cultures from my game, that live where Elves were found in the old D&D days does sort of resemble REH's picts (primitive, bloodthirsty, fond of ambushes...) though they weren't consciously modelled on them. The original base model was 11th-13th century Lithuania/Estonia.

[Springald Jack]

Re: Elves

 

How many game-worlds have you seen with 4 or 5 (or 20) distinct human cultures and then "an elven culture" and "a dwarven culture".

 

Babylon 5's cop out for this was that Human's are much better at incorporating diversity and building community than other races. They had to unify their culture over time in order to unite.

[Curufea]

Re: Elves

 

Yeah, but that brings back to about page 3 in this thread where I commented that since Dwarves were essentially short vikings and elves were tree-hugger with bows and halflings were underage kleptomaniacs that if I already had viking-like cultures and tree-huggers with bows and kleptomaniacs that I didn't *need* a whole race to fill in that niche.

 

Better, because the stereotype of these races is so deeply ingrained, if I had a human culture which filled that role*, it was much easier to warp it into something closer to what I wanted (plus I get the bonus of not having to worry where all these distinct races come from).

 

How many game-worlds have you seen with 4 or 5 (or 20) distinct human cultures and then "an elven culture" and "a dwarven culture". D20 made a valiant (but doomed) effort to get away from this, but just made the problem worse by giving us 16 different elven races (or something - it's been a a while since I looked at FR). How that works, given their generation time, I have no idea.

 

Now if you *want* to run a game where you simply want D & D dwarves and elves, go for it: it's just like using a pregenerated world. Not every GM has the time or the desire to work everything up themselves, nor is it necessary for a fun game.

 

cheers, Mark

 

*strangely enough, now that I think about it, one of the human cultures from my game, that live where Elves were found in the old D&D days does sort of resemble REH's picts (primitive, bloodthirsty, fond of ambushes...) though they weren't consciously modelled on them. The original base model was 11th-13th century Lithuania/Estonia.

 

Likewise orc and goblin culture is somewhere between Tolkein and Games Workshop (ie - either generically evil, or malicious, humorous/slapstick and evil).

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Elves

 

Likewise orc and goblin culture is somewhere between Tolkein and Games Workshop (ie - either generically evil' date=' or malicious, [b']humorous/slapstick[/b] and evil).

 

Oy! Wot's dat s'pose ta mean? I'll call down the Foot o' Mork on ya!

[Curufea]

Re: Elves

 

Yes - turning them from spawned corruptions of Elves into soccer hooligans.

[tkdguy]

Re: Elves

 

Waaaaay cooler.

 

Though, to be honest, I've played (and enjoyed) ElfQuest.

Elfquest was the basis for the package deals I came up with. Of course, the elves and trolls here aren't descended from aliens. Instead they're descended from Flores Man (the "Hobbit" recently discovered) and Neandertals.

 

Edit: I attached the packages in a txt file. It doesn't look very good here when pasted directly.

[Cantriped]

Re: Elves

 

How many game-worlds have you seen with 4 or 5 (or 20) distinct human cultures and then "an elven culture" and "a dwarven culture". D20 made a valiant (but doomed) effort to get away from this' date=' but just made the problem worse by giving us 16 different elven races (or something - it's been a a while since I looked at FR). How that works, given their generation time, I have no idea. [/quote']

My theory is that like the Vampires in the Blood-Omen/Legacy of Kain line of video games, beyond a given age bracket any species will begin to mutate into something more closly resembling their personality. This is due largely to ambiant magical radiation, and the universal force known as "Powercreep".

Humans rarely hit this age because thier tolerance for mutation is probably two or three centuries, while other species may have a greater, they also live so much longer that it's possible for them to hit their tolerance before they die.

Elves, being effectivly immortal could concievably hit their tolerance and then, because they are thematicly so linked to their environment, mutate into something befitting thier environment without losing thier "elfiness" since part of thier shicht is thier inherent superiority.