Trading up with Skill Levels

[wylodmayer]

I have a question about how y'all out there deal with advancement and skill levels. Suppose you have a character who has a 3 point Martial Arts skill level. In his roleplaying, he dilligently practices with weapons and with techniques outside his Martial Art, as well as with firearms and with dodging and cover techniques. He has five xp - would you allow him to "upgrade" the 3 point Martial Arts skill level to an 8 point All Combat Level?

 

Obviously, the question could refer to any permutation of the basic idea, not that specific scenario. Thing is, it just makes sense to me to be able to "buy up" skill levels, rather than being "stuck" with the leftovers of your starting build. Sure, when I started out as a hero, let's say I focused on one or two maneuvers, and had 3 point levels just to cover those. But as I got more experienced and gradually built up my repertoire of techniques, it makes more sense to me to trade those less sweeping levels in for ones with wider scope. I mean, when I want to build a very experienced NPC, I always give him a few Overall Levels, or something like it; I don't necessarily give him a couple of Overall Levels AND some little 2 point levels for very specific things, unless that fits his backstory.

 

I don't know whether it's technically legal or not, but it just seems to me to be a good idea, especially if you take the stance that all levels are "actually" Overall Levels with Limitations that you are progressively buying off.

[Rapier]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

Not a problem at all.

 

I've always looked at them the same way you would powers. Sure you only bought a 12d6 EB, but maybe after practice (and lots of XP) you can purchase it AP. You are just upgrading the power.

 

Same goes for Skill Levels.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

Not a problem at all.

 

I've always looked at them the same way you would powers. Sure you only bought a 12d6 EB, but maybe after practice (and lots of XP) you can purchase it AP. You are just upgrading the power.

 

Same goes for Skill Levels.

 

Taking this one step further, I'd have no problem with that character who bought a 12d6 EB later shifting that to a Multipower with other attacks (he's learned how to vary the effects of his energy blast to, perhaps, fire a more lethal blast (KA), blinding blast (Flash), wider area blast (1 hex area), explosive burst (explosion), tight beam (AP), etc.

 

At some future date, he might convert that Multipower to a VPP (with appropriate limitations) to reflect further versatility with his energy blasts.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

would you allow him to "upgrade" the 3 point Martial Arts skill level to an 8 point All Combat Level?

 

Absolutely. And like Hugh I'd do that with powers too.

 

I also allow that with stats and an activation roll. A good example is a martial artist training to be faster.

Start out with 1 pt of speed act 8- (we run that as a once a turn activation roll, done in - can only activate this point on 12 for the next turn). Then as you gain experience you up the actiavtion roll, until you just end up with another point of speed.

[Silbeg]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

He has five xp - would you allow him to "upgrade" the 3 point Martial Arts skill level to an 8 point All Combat Level?

 

I would have no problem with that.

 

On the other hand, I may require that he progress first to a 5-point HtH level, and play at that level for a couple of sessions, and then upgrade again to the All Combat level.

 

That way, it shows a more incremental progress. In addition, he may find something better to spend the other 3xp on in the mean time!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

As the others said - no problems at all. Natural progression is an expected event IMO.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

I agree that it's no problem. I'm glad to see we're all in agreement on this (so far ) I seem to remember someone (don't know who) on these boards who made rules for his games that PCs weren't allow to upgrade their abilities. If you started with a 12d6 EB, you couldn't spend 5 xp to make it 13d6. If you started with 29 DEX, you could never increase it. etc. To me, that is beyond silly.

 

Within campaign/game/setting/concept limits, I say you can upgrade *anything* in *any* way, if you've got the XP to pay for it. Add Reduced END to a Power, add Armor Piercing to an Attack, add Hardened to a Defense, Reduce a lim from OAF to OIF, or buy off a lim completely, etc. Upgrade Drain to Transfer, upgrade Leaping to Gliding to Flight, upgrade Missile Deflection to Reflection, upgrade from single power to framework. It's all good in my book.

 

If I wanted to play a game that my character to improve with experience in certain specific ways only, then I'd play that other system.

[Silbeg]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

If I wanted to play a game that my character to improve with experience in certain specific ways only' date=' then I'd play that other system.[/quote']

 

You said it, Phil!

 

Oh, wait... I guess I do play in one of those systems... and am annoyed by the situation every time I level.

[CBikle]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

Sure, why not.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

I also allow that with stats and an activation roll. A good example is a martial artist training to be faster.

Start out with 1 pt of speed act 8- (we run that as a once a turn activation roll, done in - can only activate this point on 12 for the next turn). Then as you gain experience you up the actiavtion roll, until you just end up with another point of speed.

 

I'm doing exactly that with a character.

 

Also DEX. +1 DEX, No Figured, Act 11- [3/2.5 = 1 point]; +1 DEX [3 - 1 for SPD = 2]

[Lemurion]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

I do have limits on how PCs can spend XP, but it's primarily that they need to run it by me first. I won't quibble with a PC buying up an EB or shifting it to a multipower or other framework. I would have a problem with someone buying a completely unrelated power for no reason and with no explanation of how it happened.

 

IE: someone is playing a classic stone-type brick and suddenly decides they want to buy mind control as the next slot in a brick tricks multipower, just because they think it's a cool power.

 

Not going to happen.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

Generic agreement with everyone else - even as a rookie to the system I recognize that this is exactly what the game is built to allow people to do. Expand on skills they have, improve, and so on.

[Rapier]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

I do have limits on how PCs can spend XP, but it's primarily that they need to run it by me first. I won't quibble with a PC buying up an EB or shifting it to a multipower or other framework. I would have a problem with someone buying a completely unrelated power for no reason and with no explanation of how it happened.

 

IE: someone is playing a classic stone-type brick and suddenly decides they want to buy mind control as the next slot in a brick tricks multipower, just because they think it's a cool power.

 

Not going to happen.

 

Total agreement there. You can't pull powers out of your butt.

 

In fact, it should be expected that there should be a progression in powers. I originally bought a bunch of my magic at x3 END. I've been using my STR and Running quite a bit the past few games and thought it would make sense that I could drop that to x2 END. The other two spells I haven't used yet (Leaping and Swimming) are still at x3 END.

 

To put it all in a nutshell, I think everyone is in agreement that this statement sums it up:

 

Skills can progress, enhance or change as long as there is a fairly straight-forward logical reason for there to do so.

 

Isn't Hero grand?

[pinecone]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

I have a question about how y'all out there deal with advancement and skill levels. Suppose you have a character who has a 3 point Martial Arts skill level. In his roleplaying, he dilligently practices with weapons and with techniques outside his Martial Art, as well as with firearms and with dodging and cover techniques. He has five xp - would you allow him to "upgrade" the 3 point Martial Arts skill level to an 8 point All Combat Level?

 

Obviously, the question could refer to any permutation of the basic idea, not that specific scenario. Thing is, it just makes sense to me to be able to "buy up" skill levels, rather than being "stuck" with the leftovers of your starting build. Sure, when I started out as a hero, let's say I focused on one or two maneuvers, and had 3 point levels just to cover those. But as I got more experienced and gradually built up my repertoire of techniques, it makes more sense to me to trade those less sweeping levels in for ones with wider scope. I mean, when I want to build a very experienced NPC, I always give him a few Overall Levels, or something like it; I don't necessarily give him a couple of Overall Levels AND some little 2 point levels for very specific things, unless that fits his backstory.

 

I don't know whether it's technically legal or not, but it just seems to me to be a good idea, especially if you take the stance that all levels are "actually" Overall Levels with Limitations that you are progressively buying off.

 

I've never had a problem doing it that way, and I've been doing it that way for a long time.....so I say "cool"

[dstarfire]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

If you ever wonder if you can do something with a skill, perk, etc. just build it as a power construct and see how it looks. I've overcome many confusions that way.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

I've always done this, and allowed it in my games. In fact, I prefer if all new Skills are purchased incrementally whenever possible. IOW, first buy Familiarity with the new Skill, then (if possible) buy the 2 point General 11- version, and finally buy the full 3 point Characteristic-based version after an appropriate amount of in-game time. Some role-playing before and during is appreciated as well ("MegaMan is going to spend some time studying nuclear physics when he's at the base" or "MegaMan has been learning nuclear physics for the last year, and now I'm finally going to buy it up to the full 3 point level. With his 23 INT, that'll give him a 14- Nuclear Physics roll."). Everyman Skills of course jump straight to 11- if purchased with CP.

 

I do this with my own PCs as well even though it's not an official house rule in either of the campaigns I'm in, and the idea seems to be catching on with some of the other players. It just feels more "realistic" to increase Skills incrementally; and that applies to Levels and other abilities as well. (My Champions character just purchased the Perk: Licensed Pilot, which I first mentioned her getting on the boards in May of '04. Getting a pilot's license is a relatively long process. This came well after she'd already bought the appropriate TF and then Combat Pilot, and hence could already fly aircraft rather well.)

[Black Rose]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

I agree that it's no problem. I'm glad to see we're all in agreement on this (so far ) I seem to remember someone (don't know who) on these boards who made rules for his games that PCs weren't allow to upgrade their abilities. If you started with a 12d6 EB' date=' you couldn't spend 5 xp to make it 13d6. If you started with 29 DEX, you could never increase it. etc. To me, that is beyond silly.[/quote']

So... what, you can only buy new things? That seems a bit anal to me. I mean, I can see keeping a close eye on what players want to boost, and cutting down on "Whoopie! 3 xp means another dc of Hand Attack!", but the whole point of XP is to represent experience.

 

Within campaign/game/setting/concept limits' date=' I say you can upgrade *anything* in *any* way, if you've got the XP to pay for it. Add Reduced END to a Power, add Armor Piercing to an Attack, add Hardened to a Defense, Reduce a lim from OAF to OIF, or buy off a lim completely, etc. Upgrade Drain to Transfer, upgrade Leaping to Gliding to Flight, upgrade Missile Deflection to Reflection, upgrade from single power to framework. It's all good in my book.[/quote']

With you 110% on this one. AFAIC, it's the only way to do it. I do admit a fondness for the Multipower apporach for simulating growth, but sometimes abilities just evolve.

 

I've always done this' date=' and allowed it in my games. In fact, I [i']prefer[/i] if all new Skills are purchased incrementally whenever possible. IOW, first buy Familiarity with the new Skill, then (if possible) buy the 2 point General 11- version, and finally buy the full 3 point Characteristic-based version after an appropriate amount of in-game time. Some role-playing before and during is appreciated as well ("MegaMan is going to spend some time studying nuclear physics when he's at the base" or "MegaMan has been learning nuclear physics for the last year, and now I'm finally going to buy it up to the full 3 point level. With his 23 INT, that'll give him a 14- Nuclear Physics roll."). Everyman Skills of course jump straight to 11- if purchased with CP.

I do this, too, with one little tweak: I like the Skills to go through all the stages in between. If you have an 18 PRE and an 8- in Streetwise, and spend the points to get it to stat level (13-), you spend 1 point (2 total) and have a 9- for one session/adventure, then a 10-, an 11-, spend the third point for a 12-, and finally have a 13-. This only applies if learning the skill should take a long time, or if you're trying to pick it up "in game time", instead of waiting for the between-"game" time.

[Narratio]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

I agree with prior comments. combat skill levels are always upgradable, like going up in colour belts for karate/judo etc.

 

Consequently so are other skill types, Knowledge Areas/skills and perks. One character I knew saved some points and bought a 'got money' perk. This he traded up for a "Loadsamoney" perk, he said he won the lottery. Then he upgraded it to "Playboyfilthyrichyoubetcha!". This was put down to successfull trades on the stock exchange. Took time, but it was fun.

 

Note that this also works in reverse! I also had a millionaire playboy who lost his cash (same game oddly enough. many dark looks were traded 'in game'). Went from "Playboyfilthyrichyoubetcha!" to "struggling gutterscum". The points saved went on a couple of combat skill levels. His justification was that he'd spent so much time with the crime fighting shtick he'd let others take control of his fortune.

 

The brilliant thing about the system is that everything can grow... or shrink.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

Oh why not? Me too! Yep, absolutely agreed! It's how the system was built and how the system was intended to be used.

 

Of course, it was also built so you can't do that and shouldn't... but that's just because it's flexible.

 

So, so whichever works best for you. And if you choose the wrong one we'll mob up and lynch you.

[Vondy]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

Presuming whatever suspension of reality threshold for training time has passed in the game - no problem at all. In general, I wouldn't make much of an issue out of it.

[Kenn]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

You can't pull powers out of your butt.

 

What if you're playing Captain Jack harkness in a Time Lord Hero game?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

What if you're playing Captain Jack harkness in a Time Lord Hero game?

 

That was a gun, not a power. Just ask the Doctor.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

To get way off base, I've always wondered about the convention, across all RPGs in one form or another, of the experience system.

 

I mean, it is the most unrealistic part of many games, and sets up an expectation that the point of playing is to improve the character by gaining XP. I'm not really keen on XP as a concept.

 

In the source material most characters change through plot elements rather than making a slow progression through 'experience', and in reality, 'experience' is generally far more crucial to new skills than familiar ones: most skills peak reasonably quickly for any given individual, and additional experience shows increasingly diminishing returns.

 

To take an example, how much XP has The Doctor gained over the years, and how has that been spent?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

To get way off base, I've always wondered about the convention, across all RPGs in one form or another, of the experience system.

 

I mean, it is the most unrealistic part of many games, and sets up an expectation that the point of playing is to improve the character by gaining XP. I'm not really keen on XP as a concept.

 

In the source material most characters change through plot elements rather than making a slow progression through 'experience', and in reality, 'experience' is generally far more crucial to new skills than familiar ones: most skills peak reasonably quickly for any given individual, and additional experience shows increasingly diminishing returns.

 

The original purpose of XP was to provide a tangable reward for players/characters who succeeded at some task presented by the GM. Granted, to most [heroes], the experience itself should be reward enough; but since this is a game, some kind of "prize" seems appropriate. Since D&D thought up the concept of XP decades ago, it's just become a convention of the RPG experience (pun intended).

 

To take an example, how much XP has The Doctor gained over the years, and how has that been spent?

Well duh... he's been buying new Followers to replace the one's who wander off and never come back. And occasionally rebuying certain key pieces of equipment I suspect were originally purchased Independant due to character building guidelines for a Heroic setting/genre.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Trading up with Skill Levels

 

Well duh... he's been buying new Followers to replace the one's who wander off and never come back. And occasionally rebuying certain key pieces of equipment I suspect were originally purchased Independant due to character building guidelines for a Heroic setting/genre.

 

Not to mention all those Contacts...