Combat Question: The "counter"

[Thia Halmades]

Hey Steve;

 

I was mulling through my copy of the Combat Handbook, thinking about how the flow of a fight works in any given scenario, and I thought of a couple of great fighting games, namely Tekken, Virtua Fighter, and the Dead or Alive series. I know you aren't a videogamer, but something in both of those games struck me as important.

 

The Counter. With precise timing, you can turn opponents attack against you into a very bad day for them. Classic examples are grabbing a foot in mid-air and using it for origami, twisting an arm around and palm-striking someone in the back, and so on.

 

So what's the best way to model this in HERO? Is it simply 'Block & Follow'? What happens if the person you've blocked has a higher SPD (other than you probably don't want to be in hand to hand with them)? I don't know that 'counter' wouldn't unbalance the game slightly (since pulling off a counter is intentionally difficult, because it's so brutal) but 'block' seems to be the next option.

 

Thoughts? Suggestions? Is this something you would consider working into the rules?

 

 

~TH/DEM

[Steve Long]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

This really sounds like a Discussion topic, esp. since I'm totally unfamiliar with the source material you're referencing, so I've moved it. What do you think, Herodom Assembled?

[Yansuf]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

I think "block & follow" is an adequate representation of this.

If the attacker's speed is too high it will be difficult to do this (will have to set up what segment to do it in) but that is realistic, if someone is fast enough it is very hard to do a counter against him.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

alternate idea:

Naked Trigger Modifier for certain Martial Maneuvers may do the trick; if it's genre appropriate.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

If you have The Ultimate Martial Artist, that shows you how to build custom Martial Maneuvers by combining various elements (in the chapter "Designing New Martial Arts." According to UMA p. 143, you can combine Block with a Non-Exclusive Basis such as Grab or Throw, i.e. if you successfully Block you've automatically Grabbed or Thrown your attacker.

 

A couple of existing Maneuvers from UMA, "Defensive Throw" and "Grappling Block," are built this way.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

Yah, "trigger" might do the trick, but then you're building it as a power, and I simply wanted it to be a difficult combat manuever, someone with truly absurd training would have.

 

I think, LL, that you're referring too precisely what I'm looking for. A "block & throw" manuever, or a "block & strike" or a "block, submit & follow". And this is in UMA?

 

Gracias.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

Update.

 

It's not in UMA, at least no where that I found. Can a brother get a more specific location? p143 just starts the combat section & discusses 'blocks.' and such, but nothing quite like what I'm looking for.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

Creating Maneuvers starts on UMA p88.

 

"Block & Strike" is expressly not permitted.

 

Block&Throw is a good build however. As is Block&Grab.

[pinecone]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

In addition there is a Counter strike man. that "Follows block" that is basicly a juiced up strike that you use vs people you've just blocked...is this what you are looking for? if so, this answer, like all answers in life( well almost...) is found in UMA..

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

Update.

 

It's not in UMA, at least no where that I found. Can a brother get a more specific location? p143 just starts the combat section & discusses 'blocks.' and such, but nothing quite like what I'm looking for.

 

Sorry, Lord Captain, I should have been more explicit. The part of p. 143 I referred to is the top left-hand corner, the paragraph with the bold heading "Blocks Combined With Other Elements."

 

As ghost-angel mentions, Designing New Martial Arts starts on p. 88. The most relevant section begins on the righthand column of p. 90, "Maneuver Basis," and continues to the top of p. 91, "Exclusive Versus Non-Exclusive Bases."

 

The existing maneuvers "Defensive Throw" and "Grappling Block" are statted on the maneuvers table on p. 9.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

If you have The Ultimate Martial Artist, that shows you how to build custom Martial Maneuvers by combining various elements (in the chapter "Designing New Martial Arts." According to UMA p. 143, you can combine Block with a Non-Exclusive Basis such as Grab or Throw, i.e. if you successfully Block you've automatically Grabbed or Thrown your attacker.

 

A couple of existing Maneuvers from UMA, "Defensive Throw" and "Grappling Block," are built this way.

 

With the important caveat that if the attack includes a Block and an offensive element, you cannot use the offensive element if you Abort to the Block. To use the manuevers correctly you have to hold an action.

 

 

Its generally more flexible to take a standard block (either the Marital or Defensive Blocks), and another offensive manuever with the "Must Follow Block" element. That way if you Abort to your Block, in your next action you can execute the other Manuever assuming the combat situation hasn't changed to make it moot in the interim.

 

You could also buy either a Damage Shield or a properly defined Trigger to accomplish this sort of effect if you don't mind paying more points for it.

 

And of course, if you are of more of a minimalist point of view, what you describe could be handled with the existing rules for Block whereby if the person you blocked and you would go in the same next Segment, you go first even if they have a higher initiative. Launch an attack and there you go; a counter move.

[bwdemon]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

I like to use an appropriately-powerful HA triggered to a successful Block (and requiring a to-hit roll). Simple.

 

If you really want to show the "combo" aspect of it, then buy some OCV levels that only work if your previous attack landed. You could stagger these so you get +1 if your previous to-hit roll succeeded, +1 if your previous two to-hit rolls succeeded, +1 if your previous three to-hit rolls succeeded... etc. So if you had five such levels you could get a +5 with an attack if you have a streak of five successful hits going.

 

To take this concept even further, do the same thing with extra HA dice.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

Killer Shrike mentioned this, but I feel it needs a bit more attention. Held Actions.

 

Most of the effects like these "counters" you see in the video games might be easily, and accurately, handled using Held Actions. From my own experience playing these games, if you are already initiating an attack, or even holding the block button, you can't perform a counter move. You have to just stand there, waiting until the other guy attacks you, then try to punch in the right code before they hit you. Sounds like holding an attack and attempting to beat the DEX Roll to me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

Another, much simpler, resolution is that a lot of what we see is narration of rather mundane mechanics.

 

"I hit" can be anything from "my fist swings at his general direction" to "I execute a backhanded swat at his head as he blocks well projected attack my other hand ducks under and punches him in the gut"

 

What looks like a series of two punches, where one is blocked, may simply be a single Attack Action with colurful description.

 

Or to illustrate the effect at hand:

"I'm fighting defensively for the moment, concerned more with preventing him from getting a solid shot. When he comes in for his next kick I catch his leg and execute a quick punch to his exposed body."

 

may be the answer instead of "I make my attack roll with my Martial Punch"

[Mr_Yuck]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

A damage shield would also do this.

I would set it up so that a to-hit roll was required, but it would match the criteria seen in the source material.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

What I was thinking of on the bus was in fact a "held action" - this mimics (for my purposes) the act of 'proactively defending yourself.' This would be a 'block & throw' element, built to require a held action (no abort) as the rules do say, you cannot abort to an offensive action.

 

So I think that fixes it. Yes, there are many "powers" ways to do this, and I know a couple right off the top of my head, but the idea was to build, specifically, a Martial Manuever.

[Mad Fnorder]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

I'm actually playing a rough translation of a fighting game character in a Teen Champions Game (the character is Rock Howard, for those curious), who uses counters and reversals. The way the GM and I set it up is with the Counterstrike manuver, and a bunch of extra HA dice linked to the manuver to symbolize the strength of the reversal. Could someone with higher speed "Break the counter?" Absolutely. Is it a bit easier than Trigger? Yeah.

 

Also, someone beat me to the Grappling Block example. Though I'm not sure about Block with the "Opponent Falls" element. That may still work.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

Okay. Where's "counterstrike?"

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

Okay. Where's "counterstrike?"

 

Combat Handbook p86

Ultimate Martial Artist p9

 

no description that I can find - just the table with the effects. Though it's pretty strait forward.

[Mad Fnorder]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

It's a strike with "Follow Block", like Crush is "Follow Grab". So, when I successfully execute a block, I can use the manuver on my next phase. add on the Hand Attack dice and it hits the campaign limits for DCs.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

Ah, I will check then, as I have both books right in front of me. It will also give me a good chance to build it into my current PCs martial manuevers should I choose to do so.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

I have used Counterstrike to devestating effect on several occasions.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

I have used Counterstrike to devestating effect on several occasions.

 

Combined with a high SPD (well, higher than your opponent's) Counterstrike can be very devistating. Personally, I like Sweeping it to maximize that +2 OCV.

[Vondy]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

There's also an extant maneuver Defensive Throw:

 

Defensive Throw, Block, Target Falls. 3 Points.

 

Also, there is a Disarming Throw:

 

Disarming Throw, Grab Weapon, +5 STR to take weapon away, Target Falls. 5 Points.

 

And my favorite: Grappling Block.

 

Grappling Block, Grab One Limb, Block. 5 Points.

 

It can be used in conjunction with joint locks, joint breaks, throws, etc.

 

Sweep with it and see how you like it. He's held, so his OCV is halved. You'll eat him for lunch.

 

Grappling Block + Joint Break; Grappling Block + Offensive Strike...

 

Oh, baby... It hurts so good.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Combat Question: The "counter"

 

Hmm. I acknowledge that this is going to be a deeply unsatisfactory concept, but that's me all over....

 

You don't need to do anything special to simulate this type of thing at all.

 

Eh?

 

Well, look. Two characters fighting using nothing but normal offensive manouvres: strikes, grabs, throws, whatever. In actual fact even though we have segmented turns, and individual resolutions, that is not how it is 'really' happening. In fact it is all happening at once, with everyone looking for openings to exploit.

 

Character A does a normal strike: He misses.

 

Later that phase, or next phase, or whenever, but before Character A acts again, Character B does a normal strike and hits.

 

The GM describes it as follows: CA throws a hard karate punch that you just manage to turn with the back of your hand in a block at head height. This leaves him open to your counter-punch to his ribs. It hits and the breath explodes out of him as he staggers back...

 

Turns out it was a counterstrike IN GAME, involving a block and counterstrike even if it was nothing more mechanically than another attack manouvre (or a counter-bind, if Character B grabbed, or a counter-throw if....well, you get the idea).

 

The thing is that combat IN FACT is not something where you do a lot of forward planning, but you do do a lot of reacting. If you particularly WANT to build a manouvre just have a few levels or DCs you can only use following a missed attack. It is probably not that necessary though.

 

Something that I have noticed when introducing new players to Hero is that, despite the richness of the combat system, they don't always get into it and seem all that interested (too much choice can be a bad thing for the uninitiated), but if you move the focus from the mechanics to cool descriptions of what just happened in a more (apparently) fluid gaming environment, suddenly they buck up.

 

Often it is less about how cunning the system is and more about how cunning the person running it is.

 

Right, back to normal service....

 

 

OR...far more concisely (and acknowledgement where it is due, I really should read all the posts in advance):

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1146256&postcount=14