Tri-system experiment

[Doc Democracy]

Phil and I ran a game for our gaming group a week ago because we wanted to do a comparison of three crunchy superhero systems. We used M&M, SAS and HERO (obviously!) and came up with a scenario where we created three versions of the same six superheroes and a cross dimensional scenario where each dimension ran under different system rules.

 

It has been an interesting experience and we are still putting our thoughts together on the results.

 

My first thought was that I will never use a crunchy system (as written) to run superheroes ever again - I played and watched and didn't get enough of a superhero feel from any of them.

 

My second thought was that one of Hero's major downfalls is its character sheet set-up (probably exacerbated by Hero Designer).

 

Don't get me wrong - I think Hero Designer is fantastic - for GMs and experienced players - but the output while pretty to anyone knowledgable about the game is a nightmare of numbers and jargon to anyone else.

 

The Hero character sheets, more than anything else in my mind, made HERO the least appealing game to the players (none of whom had played any of the systems before).

 

My take on character sheets is that they are the GUI between the player and the system and HERO would appear to still be in the time of command line DOS. It scared them more than any other sheet we provided.

 

I reckon one of the big things HERO needs is a player friendly character sheet and its something that Hero Designer should have made easy - one design two character sheets - one for the GM who needs the detail and one for the player who needs the playability and easy reference.

 

Just my initial impressions. The game itself was a 19.5 hours marathon played over two days and everyone had a blast.

 

We'll try to feedback other thoughts that come from the group and possibly a polished version of the scenario which borrowed from Reality Storm (not hugely impressed with that or the conversion notes in it) and Time of Crisis (which was a bit better but obviously just M&M focussed).

 

Doc

[OddHat]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Looking forward to seeing this.

 

I've been thinking that, for next years GenCon Convention game, I might custom alter the sheets in Word in order to make them easier for new players.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Looking forward to seeing this.

 

I've been thinking that, for next years GenCon Convention game, I might custom alter the sheets in Word in order to make them easier for new players.

 

I am currently producing a version of the sheets that we used for the scenario in a more narrative form - I'm doing this in PowerPoint as it gives me more control of layout than Word does. If I feel brave I might try to do something similar using Excel.

 

Doc

[CourtFool]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

I have done a sheet for my own taste that strips out all of the costs. As I see it, the cost are all figured in HD. I do not need to see them on the output. Still, dX and M&M are much more streamlined.

 

I recently got a chance to play in an M&M game. I like that skills are cheaper. I like the streamlined character sheets; if you use something similar to the archetypes used in the book. I like that it only uses one die. I like no Hit Points or even Body. I am still not convinced that it is as versatile as Hero. I do not think you could do any genre with it. I glanced over True D20 as well and was not overly impressed. Why do away with classes (roles, whatever you are going to call them) in M&M only to bring them back in True D20?

[NestorDRod]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

I had a similar experience in that I was in a superhero campaign that switched from Hero to M&M in mid-stride. A few of the observations I made were:

 

* Hero is a better system for modeling powers, especially the off-the-mainstream type (my character, for instance, was an ex-government agent that had a symbiote grafted onto his chest. The symbiote was sentient and had four stretchable grasping limbs that my PC could normally control. I found it much easier to stat the whole thing out in Hero than in M&M).

 

* Combat didn't really take that less time, although unfamiliarity with the M&M system could have been a factor in that.

 

* The GM became frustrated with the fact that he just couldn't take one of us down. Whether that was a function of the dice being rolled, the conversion process, or a factor of the combat system can be debated.

 

* The one-die roll was initially appealing, but I found myself missing the comfort of the bell curve that rolling 3d6 gives you.

 

I haven't had a chance to try out SAS (other than in basic demos at cons) so I can't say much about it. I'd like to give it a shot sometime, though, if only so that my PC can worship at Alice's feet.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Double digit postings for Nestor. Congrats! (Why do I imagine all Nestor is saying being in a Spanish accent?)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

I have done a sheet for my own taste that strips out all of the costs. As I see it' date=' the cost are all figured in HD. I do not need to see them on the output. Still, dX and M&M are much more streamlined.[/quote']

 

One of the problems is that Hero is so detailed. Ace for modelling and accuracy but a nightmare for the untutored eye. Thia Halmades sig neatly makes the point:

 

Holy Ice Cream Cone Of Smiting: HA +10d6, Penetrating (+1/2) (75 Active Points); OIF (returns to the mighty hands of Thia Halmades if taken away; -1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (total cost: 37 points) plus HA +6d6 (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Only Versus The Avowed Enemies Of Thia Halmades (-1) (total cost: 10 points). Total cost: 47 points.

 

What does that say to you? It says nothing to me to start. When I apply a Hero Eye to it, it tells me that there is a physical thing (OIF - jargon) that adds to my normal hand to hand damage (+10D6) and returns if taken away. It also tells me that it will usually do some damage regardless of the defences of the opponent (Penetrating - jargon) and will do even more damage if the opponent is an Avowed Enemy of Thia Halmades.

 

To my Hero Eye - I'm not sure what the -1/2 for Hand to Hand attack is for on the HA +6D6.

 

There is lots of jargon my Hero Eye is ignoring right now - needs my GM Eye to see that - e.g. "30 Active Points" "-1/2" etc.

 

Too much information for the player. A player version of this might be:

 

Holy Ice Cream Cone Of Smiting: +10d6 to Hand to Hand damage with a minimum of 10 done. The Cone returns to Thia's hand if taken away and gets a bonus 6D6 when used against Thia Halmades Avowed Enemies. It costs 10 END to use it.

 

Personally, if I were Thia, I would look at the END cost - especially that bonus damage!!

 

Doc

[Phil]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

To my Hero Eye - I'm not sure what the -1/2 for Hand to Hand attack is for on the HA +6D6.

 

Cmon Doc, that's vanilla 5ER! Special limitation applied to Hand Attack because to reflect the fact it's limited STR (+1d6, 5 Active Points, 3 Real Points)

 

To add to Doc's points, the game was fabulous. We even got our group playing in character from the very start, which was a result as they were dealing with pre-gens!

 

Few further thoughts on the systems:

 

HERO: Players really didnt seem to mind the fact that they all had the same number of actions in M&M and mostly the same number of actions in SAS. I wonder whether for 'average' supers groups, HERO's Speed may in fact be an unnecessary complication? (HERESY!!!) I would also say that of the 3 systems, HERO really has got the balance of costs absolutely on the nail. Or as near as dammit. Except for skills, which I've always felt were over-priced! Also, something has happened in HERO between 4th and 5th edition that I hadn't noticed. DEF has stayed around the same, but DC has gone up by 2, meaning that Defender can only take 2 average hits with his own EB before he's out for the count. SAS on the other hand with its traditional HP mechanic didnt seem to fit Supers very well. On which note...

 

SAS: Must be one of the most irritating RPGs I've read (certainly since RMFRP). The book is very badly organised (e.g. Rule on lifting capacity is found under the Superstrength power). It is also not well designed for the supers-genre in certain areas, e.g. it encourages Speedsters to attack and then run 30 miles to get away. Might be possible, but it's not something you see the Flash doing on a regular basis. Speedsters again - don't run into anything while running or flying above c. 150mph. You WILL die. Lots. A Tri-stat Superman doing a full speed power dive into an alien mother ship would be a smear all over its surface! While planning the game I did think that tri-stat really ought to be quad-stat and have a separate one for Agility/Dex type of thing. But actually, in play, I felt that the 3 stats worked just fine and gave a nice quick roll-under mechanic. Although separate costs for different skill is a pain in the botsie. Big mitigating factor that probably saves SAS, however, is Kreutzwritter - a truly cool villain

 

M&M: Agree with the general comments that HERO is definitely the most effective at modelling any ability, that M&M probably is not a great generic system and, yes, I too missed the 3d6 bell-curve. My thought on that is to raise the M&M character 'level' to 14, meaning that on average all the main abilities will be +14 thus reducing the impact of the die roll from +/- 200% to +/-142%. Well, it's a start.... I also feel that the characteristic costs may be a tiny bit awry in M&M - for the cost of 18 in every stat a la Batman or Cap America, I can have a normal guy with EB, forcefield and an array of super-senses). While the same is true in HERO, attributes contribute a lot more than they do in M&M. Reflex saves are broken - not reduced in any way by being immobile, so you can grapple someone and he can still dodge out of the way of that explosion even if you get toasted! But in general I rather like the elegant simplicity of the uniform Save mechanic, though think it could be better to keep all the die rolling with one party - so A rolls to hit and damage, rather than A rolling to hit and B rolling to save.

 

Oh, and one other comment. The players enjoyed the 'prologue' against a band of moderately powered gadgeteer villains more than they did the climaxes of the three main Acts against reality-respective mega-villains (Kreutzwritter, Mechanon, Omega) because it made them feel more like superheroes. Whatever that means

 

I'll let Doc Democracy put up the detail of the *story*. I'm more of a systems kinda guy

 

Phil

p.s. Now to think of an excuse to bring those three realities back in conjunction with one another. After all, inter-dimensional mega-villains are never truly defeated....

[NestorDRod]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Double digit postings for Nestor. Congrats! (Why do I imagine all Nestor is saying being in a Spanish accent?)

 

That's coz I'm Heespanic! Why else would I speek in thees out-ray-jous Spanish accent, you seelly person!

[Phil]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

My second thought was that one of Hero's major downfalls is its character sheet set-up (probably exacerbated by Hero Designer).

 

Don't get me wrong - I think Hero Designer is fantastic - for GMs and experienced players - but the output while pretty to anyone knowledgable about the game is a nightmare of numbers and jargon to anyone else.

 

Which actually reminds me of the very first time I stumbled across Champions, in a superhero scenario in White Dwarf called Peking Duck (issue 66 IIRC). I started reading the scenario, because I loved supers tho at that time had never seen a SHRPG, and stopped reading as soon as I hit the first character write-up because it was just an impenetrable mass of numbers!

 

The Hero character sheets, more than anything else in my mind, made HERO the least appealing game to the players (none of whom had played any of the systems before).

That and one or two of the characters had rather too many with CSLs. That really added to the confusion!

 

We'll try to feedback other thoughts that come from the group and possibly a polished version of the scenario which borrowed from Reality Storm (not hugely impressed with that or the conversion notes in it) and Time of Crisis (which was a bit better but obviously just M&M focussed).

 

The conversion rules in Reality Storm looked off in a number of areas, evidenced most strongly by the fact that the pre-gens (Champions / The Guard) didn't even *use* the conversion rules! Some odd conversions of things like Massive Damage (SAS) <-> Find Weakness (HERO) which didn't work for me. And no consideration given for STUN when determining SAS Health, even though Stun is more important than Body in most Champions fights.

 

Of course Time of Crisis was better - it had Nazis and intelligent Gorillas in it! What more do you need?!

 

Phil

p.s. one other comment. We chose two pre-gen characters from each of the respective games, thinking that this would mean that each character would be optimised for at least one of the three realities. Not true. The SAS pre-gens were absolute pants and would need serious tweaking to work in a long-term campaign IMHO. Sure, Slipstream may be a super-speedster, but what use is he when he would take all of his Extra Attacks to take down just one average minion, and against anyone with any kind of armour he might as well go home. Or go for a 10,000kph suicide splat

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Cmon Doc' date=' that's vanilla 5ER! Special limitation applied to Hand Attack because to reflect the fact it's limited STR (+1d6, 5 Active Points, 3 Real Points) [/quote']

 

Pah! I forgot that change...the continuing changes from limited STR to 3pt hand attack power to 5 point hand attack power with a mandatory -1/2 limitation! I can't keep up with the changes in my head any more...

[Funksaw]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

My take on it:

 

Hero Games is a complex system - it sacrifices simplicity for the ability to do pretty much anything. This manifests itself in two particular ways.

 

First, it is easier in HERO to model the -weirder- powers, and to do so more exactly. Second, it's easier to use the HERO system to model "super skills" and, dare I say it, powers more handily covered under a metaplot-bending system. Typically, if there's a power in another game, you can find a way to model it pretty closely in HERO.

 

SAS is HERO's simpler cousin, and for many, many applications, I prefer it. SAS, however, has two quirks that do tend to get in the way of a good time - damage in SAS is very random, and multiple actions are very hard to keep track of. I can houserule away both, but the game does need another edition to deal with it. It also doesn't have the gamerbase that HERO does. So if you're -looking- for a game, you're more likely to find HERO players, but if you're taking on first-time gamers, you're more likely to have a better chance at introducing them to SAS.

 

M&M is a odd duck. There, I have had great difficulty implimenting concepts that have been easy to impliment in the other two systems; mostly because it tends to be a hybrid of a reason-from-effect system and a powers-based system. (Aberrant also would fit in this category.) It's a well designed system but much more limited in scope towards the more "standard" powers of the 4-color superhero mindset. That said, it's core system seems to be the simplest of the three: still, I'm not fond of a linear mechanic, and I'm not fond of the "save vs. damage" idea - which is essentially a "save or KO/Die" roll.

 

I would gladly play in a campaign that had any of these systems, however, some systems are just better suited for certain types of games.

[Funksaw]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

One more thing. I think that the way we write out powers may also contribute to the Mass Of NUMBERS! syndrome.

 

Sure, we're used to:

 

Holy Ice Cream Cone Of Smiting: HA +10d6, Penetrating (+1/2) (75 Active Points); OIF (returns to the mighty hands of Thia Halmades if taken away; -1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (total cost: 37 points) plus HA +6d6 (30 Active Points); OIF (-1/2), Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Only Versus The Avowed Enemies Of Thia Halmades (-1) (total cost: 10 points). Total cost: 47 points.

But what if we wrote it out like this?:

 

Holy Ice Cream Cone Of Smiting:

Hand To Hand Attack, +10d6 Damage

Base Points: 50

 

Advantages:

--- Penetrates Armor (+1/2)

Active Points: 75

Endurance Cost: 7 END per use

 

Limitations:

--- Obvious, Inaccessible Focus (Returns to Thia's hands if taken away) (-1/2)

--- Hand-To-Hand Attack (No range, but can add strength) (-1/2)

--- The power can be used only vs. the Avowed Enemies of Thia (-1)

Final Cost: 47 Points

 

 

We write it with "HERO Shorthand" because -we- tend to be familiar with the abbreviations and the style; but writing powers out as above tends to be easier for new players to read. If I was writing a character sheet for a new player, that's how I'd write it out... even if I had to put the powers on a seperate sheet.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Heck, you can make it so much less complex than that. Drop all the advantage and limitation modifiers... once the power is calculated, it doesn't matter what they are (at least for newbies). Also, drop the costs as well, they also don't matter. Try this:

 

Holy Ice Cream Cone of Smiting:

Hand to Hand Attack, 10d6

--- Penetrating: minimum 1 stun per die after defenses

--- Focus: Physical object that returns to Thia's hands if taken away

--- Special: +6d6 damage against the avowed enemies of Thia

 

All you need then is to know that "hand to hand" attacks are added to your strength damage, which is a pretty basic thing.

 

I'm glad someone brought this up, because I'm trying to introduce one of my gaming groups to Hero and I think a character sheet like this would make it a lot easier.

 

-Nate

[Phil]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Holy Ice Cream Cone Of Smiting:

Hand To Hand Attack, +10d6 Damage

Base Points: 50

 

Advantages:

--- Penetrates Armor (+1/2)

Active Points: 75

Endurance Cost: 7 END per use

BTW, that's 10 END against Avowed Enemies of Thia Halmades

 

I think that's key. Of the three game systems, the only one I had time to do this with on the character sheets was SAS (although if anything I went too far and spent too much time referencing the numbers myself). Still, it *does* make life a lot easier for newbie players and also helps them better capture the feel of the game - they spend less time worrying about optimising the numbers and more declaring creative uses of power and stretching the boundaries of the system, as any good superhero should!

[Zed-F]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

If you want to (for instance for a Con game) you can simplify things even more than that. All you need to do for the player sheets is give a name of a power and a brief description of what it is. The GM can have the actual sheet with the proper write-up, and apply the results of the power accordingly when it gets used.

 

Once the players get used to the way the game runs, THEN you can introduce the character construction rules and show them how you built those cool powers their heroes are using.

[Funksaw]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Indeed, if you have a new player, you should take the time before the game starts to help them set up the character and explain how each of the items work.

 

It also helps if you point out that advantages and limitations aren't really a great way to "shave points" or "get a bonus" - it does tend to get complicated and it bites you in the ass. Advantages and limitations tend to work best when being used to model a power more accurately, not to get extra points. (There's the infamous story about how everyone in the party took powers that do not work in water and then had to invade a submarine base...)

[Phil]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Indeed' date=' if you have a new player, you should take the time before the game starts to help them set up the character and explain how each of the items work. [/quote']

 

We didnt do this with any of the three systems, allowing our experienced players to explore them 'on the fly' as it were. But we found it a particular weakness of HERO that without some initial briefing, the players did look thoroughly bemused!

 

It's also worth noting that we pretty much ignore disadvantages for the purposes of our experimental game. That was even more numbers that we really didn't need!

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

I am currently producing a version of the sheets that we used for the scenario in a more narrative form - I'm doing this in PowerPoint as it gives me more control of layout than Word does. If I feel brave I might try to do something similar using Excel.

 

Doc

PowerPoint? EEWwwww! If I want to make a pretty presentation to a customer with lots of short, pithy bullet-points and meaningless pictures, I use PowerPoint. If I want to do something like this, I would use Visio -- it gives you the layout control that you want, plus it is actually intended to be a drawing/diagramming program. I haven't tried the new InfoPath yet, so I cannot say if it would be useful, but it says it is specifically used for forms.

 

As for the larger question, it sounds like the OP wants a separate character design form and a simplified character play sheet. Isn't HD capable of outputting based on different templates?

[Phil]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

If I want to do something like this' date=' I would use Visio -- it gives you the layout control that you want, plus it is actually intended to be a drawing/diagramming program.[/quote']

 

There speaks someone who doesn't have to buy his own software

 

I've found Excel to be a more than adequate flow-charting / diagram tool. But then I do *everything* with Excel

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

There speaks someone who doesn't have to buy his own software

Guilty as charged -- not that I would misuse my company's resources for personal uses. No, no , no. Of Course not.

[Lemurion]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Interesting,

 

I know that I'm finding things difficult training up new HERO GMs in my local group. I really enjoy the system but it is difficult for new players to pick up at least insofar as character generation goes.

 

That may be the biggest issue. HERO is easy enough to play, but it's so front-loaded that people may bog down in character generation and never get into the actual game. That's a huge pity because it really is a good system (I still consider it the best of the 20+ I've tried over the years).

[Vondy]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

I'm an old Hero hand and I don't like Hero character sheets. I adopted a version of the numbers light template found in hero-designer for my games, which I found made the players happier as well. I went so far as to remove most of the stats, sans END, REC, and STUN, and just left the stat rolls and pertinant notes, even speed was just expressed as phases. I found the players became more intent on roll playing and creativity, and worried less about what was going on mechanically.

[Robyn]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

Holy Ice Cream Cone Of Smiting: +10d6 to Hand to Hand damage with a minimum of 10 done. The Cone returns to Thia's hand if taken away and gets a bonus 6D6 when used against Thia Halmades Avowed Enemies. It costs 10 END to use it.

 

Personally, if I were Thia, I would look at the END cost - especially that bonus damage!!

 

That, is a special ice cream cone. It was given to Thia by Steve Long.

 

You could always talk with Steve about giving Thia another one

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Tri-system experiment

 

I'm an old Hero hand and I don't like Hero character sheets. I adopted a version of the numbers light template found in hero-designer for my games' date=' which I found made the players happier as well. I went so far as to remove most of the stats, sans END, REC, and STUN, and just left the stat rolls and pertinant notes, even speed was just expressed as phases. I found the players became more intent on roll playing and creativity, and worried less about what was going on mechanically.[/quote']

 

I like this suggestion.

 

I must remember to try it out with my next gaming group.