Hero is broken

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I'm only arguing against the notion that damage should be directly and strictly tied to delivered energy. I overstated the case in saying that energy is irrelevent' date=' but this is an arguement I've had regarding other games as well, and I've grown tired of having to explain the same things over and over again regarding all the other factors involved. [/quote']

 

The problem is, all the "other factors" aren't really quantifiable within the scope of the game. Basic Energy is quantifiable through its relation to base DC.

 

This is the way I think of Energy and Damage components in relation to the Hero game mechanics:

 

Energy: The energy of an attack determines its basic Damage Class. This is simply the basic damage model and not the absolute final authority on how much damage something does. This can and will be modified based on various criteria determined by the attack delivery system and the way in which damage is delivered. In general however, when it comes to most projectile and energy based weapons, Energy = Damage Class (Exponential progression based on a X2 Energy = +1 DC model) is the basis from which I start.

 

Delivery: How the energy is delivered is my next determination when deciding on damage. Attacks which deliver large amounts of energy along small areas tend to be considered Killing Damage (bullets, edged weapons etc). Attacks which deliver energy along a wider area are generally considered Normal Damage. (Baseball bat, Beanbag ammo, Thrown rock etc). This, however is not set in stone, but is the general rule.

Taking this one step further, attacks that impact a very small area are often given the Armor Piercing or Piercing advantages. Killing attacks that have an enhanced damage effect on living creatures as opposed to unliving objects are often given increased Stun Multiple. "Heavy" non-piercing type attacks that deliver a large amount of Kinetic Energy to a target are often given the Double Knockback limitation. Attacks that transfer Kinetic Energy to the internal parts of a target get Penetrating. Attacks that tend to make small wounds or "Blow Through" effects get a reduced DC (-1 or -2 DC depending on various factors) Attacks that have a difficult time penetrating hard surfaces get Reduced Penetrating (Buckshot!). Attacks that quickly lose energy over range get Reduced By Range (of course). And much much more (NND, AVLD etc)

 

Interaction: How an attack interacts with various targets is the most difficult thing to model in an RPG that attempts to model these effects in such an abstract manner. Thus, this simply boils down to Body and Defense. One has to balance the Body and Defense aspects of various objects/creatures to get the interaction to "feel right".

Defense is, quite obviously, how difficult it is to damage an object. This is usually based on the objects density and surface hardness. An object that is consistantly hard/tough throughout (i.e. very "solid") will have an greater defense than an object that simply has a hard, but thin outer shell.

Body is how much damage an object will take before it is finally destroyed (Structural integrity). This includes living creatures as well as unliving objects. I consider BODY to be a basic determination on how well a persons body will hold together when under attack. "Will to live", which is highly touted in relation to Body in living creatures, is simulated not only with Body, but with a combination of Stun, Defense, and Ego. Powers can also be brought to bear in this equation creating a character who can survive all but the most damaging attacks. Body is not the only determining factor..or at least, it doesn't have to be.

 

Thats all I got.

 

What about all the rest? I leave "The Rest" up to good roleplaying. Thats all you can do. The system can handle the basics, but anything more advanced gets far too complicated to remain playable. In real life, is Energy the only thing that determines how much damage an object takes from an attack? Of course not. It would be silly to think otherwise. But in a game which simulates dramatic fiction, is there anything wrong with using Energy to determine the basic damage of an attack? No, there isn't. Its simply a tool used to help balance/regulate various types of attacks from one another. Nothing more.

 

Heck, it not even necessary to go as far as using Energy as a basis for Damage Class. Most players/Gm's play it by ear. The Energy model is only for those GM's and players who want just a little bit of consistancy in their games. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

I'm arguing against the 86 BODY Earth because even if it has a 10 average DEF thoughout, the typical energy projector could destroy the earth in just under 9 turns (ignoring END for the moment).

 

2 BODY through on average from 12d6

86 BODY / 2 = 43 shots

43 shots / 5 SPD = 8.6 turns

 

Up the average DEF to 14, and there are still supers out there with 16d6 attacks.

 

Obviously, that's a rough example, but I hope my point is fairly clear.

 

This is simply a common sense issue in regards to any game. I assume that in order to destroy the Earth, one has to bring the Earth to -86 Body in one large attack, otherwise, the attack merely displaces as much dirt as "X" Body of damage would do as per the rules for attacking hexes of dirt. Thus, it takes 10 Body damage to destroy 1 Hex of Dirt. 11 Body to destroy 2 Hexes of Dirt and so on. And I would even limit this to a reasonable area depending on the nature of the attack (In other words, most Energy projectors cannot destroy 10 city blocks with a 20D6 Energy blast unless their attack has that much Area of Effect or Explosion attatched to it!)

 

And of course, The Earth regenerates from this damage in short order, so characters could shoot away at the earth all day and never destroy it completely. Sure, they can leave miles-wide craters (not in my game though), but all that earth will rain back down and they have to start all over again

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. Let's just forget about that stuff, and move on then.

 

Hello, my name is Mister E.

 

I believe that BODY is exponential.

 

A popular argument people like to bring against exponential BODY, is that they like to arbitrarily apply BODY, without regard to its inherent exponential nature... and that I should "keep my laws off of their BODY." (I just made that up.)

 

This, in effect, nullifies any meaning the attribute has, other than being some kind of meta-game 'killability' score, for min-max'ers who don't really care to simulate jack with their character's stats.

 

People have gone so far as to say that the mass (and/or size) of a character (and/or object) is irrelavant in determining BODY, despite the mountains of evidence, which are promptly ignored.

 

Bold people make comments to the effect that the Object BODY Table is inadequate to simulate the massive number of variables involved in figuring out the BODY of any object, and should therefore be ignored. (This obviously ignores that fact that 5er suggests modifying the BODY of special case objects.) The conclusion is that BODY should be counted out according to personal taste, for it is impossible to have any kind of system of virtual meaning attached to the BODY stat... or that a much more complicated system should be figured out, that incorperates Organ-Systems; Material Strengths; Structural Engineering; completely new systems of dispensing damage; whatever... as long as BODY isn't exponential.

 

Other people believe that the exponential aspect of BODY only relates to its mass (and/or size), and that all other qualities of an object that relate to BODY should be dolled out in a linear fashion, and thus... this discounts any real meaning of BODY... certainly in any kind of exponential "+1 BODY = x2 virtual effective BODY" way.

 

Still other people argue that the +1 BODY doesn't equal x2 effectiveness in all situations. Well, these people are right. But in the end, 20 BODY shouldn't be considered double 10 BODY either... the same that a 20 DC attack shouldn't be considered double the damage of a 10 DC attack. 5 points of Growth gives you +1 BODY, not double whatever BODY you have... The same way that 5 points of Growth gives you +5 STR, allows you to pick up objects twice as heavy, and do +1d6 more Normal Damage per hit (which, amazingly, averages +1 more point of BODY Damage per hit).

 

I believe that a 16 BODY grizzly bear should be considered an object with effectively 8x the BODY of a 13 BODY Volkswagen Beetle; and that a 100kg man, with a nye-superhumanly fierce will to live, which was represented with a BODY of 17, should be considered a being with twice the BODY of the 16 BODY grizzly bear.

 

My new definition for +1 BODY is, "a virtual effective doubling of the total BODY characteristic."

 

I think an even more interesting conversation, would be the relationship between DEF and BODY... especially when comparing the Powers: Density Increase and Growth.

Mr. E -

 

I think the point of BOD being exponentially-based is fine and supported by the object rules. I think your (and others') point in this is well-considered and conclusive.

 

However, the rules are clear on further rules to refine this when it comes to complex objects and biological systems. We need only consider that for non-simple objects (which is already a subjective term) there is invariably no real solid method of formulaic understanding.

 

As to whether +1 BOD = x2 effect, well, I think that simply because +5 CP in most areas = x2 "power" and +1 BOD is consistent with that scale in resistance, the whole notion of either linear or exponential effect is unworkable. But that's okay...in fact, it's very realistic. I've been thinking about this, and the thing is, the universe/our dimension starts with some very simple fundamental rules but as they play out in interaction we get extremely complex and even unpredictable (with our current understanding) results. HERO works much the same, and why should we expect less or more? In fact, it represents how well HERO does replicate bits of our world. Just because x2 "force" or "power" is represented by +5 CP and x2 "resistance" is given with +1 BOD, this doesn't mean that the interplay (because of other variables such as DEF, Lims, SFX, and so on) should be so simple.

 

I think this all is not only coherent but elegant. Now, it does, unlike of course our world, break down on the edges, and I am all for continued refinement of the model. But I think the current situation is not widely inconsistent or so fundamentally flawed based on my above considerations.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

There's an old axiom in the legal profession which states "Hard cases make bad law." I suspect we're seeing something equivalent here: The far ends of the damage/BODY spectrum lead to strange or even ridiculous results. However, for the 99.999% of players and GMs who will never find it necessary to destroy a planet or build the weapon to do so the rules as written are adequate, if simplistic. They make perfectly good starting points. That's fine, because this is a role-playing game, and the GM is explicitly permitted by the rules to modify defenses and BODY as he sees fit in order to tell a dramatic story.

 

My suspicion is that most of the players and GMs who want precise and inalterable rules on this subject have been subjected to "cheating" on the part of a player or GM, and hence want those rules in black and white so they can't get screwed over or BS'ed. That's what comes with a lack of trust in players or the GM.

I agree with 99% of what you said, at least basically, for sure, but as to the last point, I will say that if one does play a game with planet-busting being quite possible (I am currently dabbling in such a game), then I can see wanting refinement in actual rules on that high end. I don't think it's quite so probable a result of cheating or gross system abuse.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero is broken

 

A parabolic projectile will hit at a different angle depending on where it is in the arc. However' date=' it will [u']always[/u] hit at some definite angle, just as a straight line projectile will always hit at some definite angle. It might take a little figuring to make sure that your straight line attack hits at the same angle as your parabolic attack but it can be done (just use Calculus to figure the derivative--that is what it is for).

 

I have no desire to require myself and all my players to use calculus in order to figure the damage from each attack. Thus, I will not have a system which provides for perfect real world damage. I can live with that.

 

And if you want to keep things simple' date=' you know that a parabolic arc goes "flat line" for an instant right at the top of its curve.[/quote']

 

The tank is on the ground. It's not going to be hit at the top of the curve.

 

arguing against the 86 BODY Earth presented in the rules[/b]. I am not the one here who is disagreeing with the rules.

 

Point me to the rule that says "A few haymakers from Grond and we have no more planet to stand on." If I accept the book DEF and book BOD for earth can be attacked by characters, any champions character and many Fantasy hero characters can, given a few hours to spare, destroy the Earth. The big rule I live by is common and dramatic sense, and both say "the characters don't destroy the Earth with a few minutes worth of attacks".

 

Nor does a sniper rifle.

 

Lets say we have a guass gun which fires metal needles which are 4 mm in diameter, and 100 mm long (mass = 0.01 kg) at a muzzle velocity of 1000 meters/sec.

 

I'd give it a damage rating of 8 DCs (based on its kinetic energy). And I should add that this rating would make the weapon consistent with most of the weapons on the firearms chart.

 

What damage would you give this weapon?

 

Whatever damage I need to create the effect I wish it to have in the story. I'd probably short it on actual damage and give it Penetrating, and possibly AP. And, even if I did make them AP Penetrating, firing 200 of them straight down would not destroy the earth.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I agree with 99% of what you said' date=' at least basically, for sure, but as to the last point, I will say that if one does play a game with planet-busting being quite possible (I am currently dabbling in such a game), then I can see wanting refinement in actual rules on that high end. I don't think it's quite so probable a result of cheating or gross system abuse.[/quote']Well, I doubt most players or GMs ever even get near a campaign where destroying a planet is a feasible stunt (as opposed to a plot device). Probably even most Star Hero or Galactic Champions campaigns never reach the point where that's something that can be done by a character, even an NPC villain. And if it's only an abstraction for 99.9% of Hero players, then why the need to pin it down to the kilogram how much xd6 does? It seems to me to be much ado about nothing.

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Point me to the rule that says "A few haymakers from Grond and we have no more planet to stand on." If I accept the book DEF and book BOD for earth can be attacked by characters, any champions character and many Fantasy hero characters can, given a few hours to spare, destroy the Earth.

I'm arguing against the 86 BODY Earth because even if it has a 10 average DEF thoughout' date=' the typical energy projector could destroy the earth in just under 9 turns (ignoring END for the moment). [/quote']What would you guys say to the idea of making the Earth a Macro-Dimensional target, and that any attack able to damage it requires the Transdimensional Advantage with the proper "planet-scale" SFX? If that were the case, 86 BODY, might be considered a minimum base-line, but not so far fetched.

[Vorsch]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Its not suitable for transdimentional, i know this cos im standing on it. ergo its in my dimention

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Mr. E -

 

I think the point of BOD being exponentially-based is fine and supported by the object rules. I think your (and others') point in this is well-considered and conclusive.

 

However, the rules are clear on further rules to refine this when it comes to complex objects and biological systems. We need only consider that for non-simple objects (which is already a subjective term) there is invariably no real solid method of formulaic understanding.

The rules never state that modifications to BODY, representitive of factors other than size, or mass, shouldn't be given on the same +1 BODY = 2x the "virual effectiveness" method. The rules are just silent. I see absolutely no reason or advantage in assuming that except for size and mass, BODY should be dolled out linearly. Quite the opposite, because of the fact that no matter what score an objects BODY has, that BODY will be used against Damage Classes, much of which is based on STR, and I am likewise convinced that DC's are exponential in nature.

 

As to whether +1 BOD = x2 effect, well, I think that simply because +5 CP in most areas = x2 "power" and +1 BOD is consistent with that scale in resistance, the whole notion of either linear or exponential effect is unworkable.

You lost me here. To give an example, are you saying that because +5 STR = +1d6 Normal Damage = x2 "power", and +1 BODY = x2 "resistance" consistently in relation to STR, damage, and their exponential nature... that the "notion of either linear or exponential effect is unworkable?" This doesn't make sense to me. I must be miss-interpreting this. Was your intent to focus more on the Character Points?

But that's okay...in fact, it's very realistic. I've been thinking about this, and the thing is, the universe/our dimension starts with some very simple fundamental rules but as they play out in interaction we get extremely complex and even unpredictable (with our current understanding) results. HERO works much the same, and why should we expect less or more? In fact, it represents how well HERO does replicate bits of our world. Just because x2 "force" or "power" is represented by +5 CP and x2 "resistance" is given with +1 BOD, this doesn't mean that the interplay (because of other variables such as DEF, Lims, SFX, and so on) should be so simple.

 

I think this all is not only coherent but elegant. Now, it does, unlike of course our world, break down on the edges, and I am all for continued refinement of the model. But I think the current situation is not widely inconsistent or so fundamentally flawed based on my above considerations.

I'm pretty sure I agree with this. The "interplay" is where the game is actually played. A man that is made of blown glass, and runs around in a titanium power-suit, who is shot by an armor-piercing sonic attack, for which he has a Vulnerability Disad for... that is the game.

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Its not suitable for transdimentional' date=' i know this cos im standing on it. ergo its in my dimention[/quote']Yeah, I know... but I'm pretty sure dimensions can be used for stuff like this: People can walk around in Frozen Time... A "fantastic voyage" inside a senator's colon could encounter a giant gloved finger doing a prostate exam... lots of things.

 

And also, dispite being able to walk around, and interact with objects on the Earth, can you really even target or attack the Earth? Things, sure, but the Earth itself? It's just too massive. It's on a whole other scale of reality... atomic bombs do nothing to it... its just so massive.

 

Thus I resubmit that it exists on macro-dimensional scale, and attacks must require the Transdimensional Advantage to affect it.

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

.... Energy: The energy of an attack determines its basic Damage Class. This is simply the basic damage model and not the absolute final authority on how much damage something does. This can and will be modified based on various criteria determined by the attack delivery system and the way in which damage is delivered. In general however' date=' when it comes to most projectile and energy based weapons, Energy = Damage Class (Exponential progression based on a X2 Energy = +1 DC model) is the basis from which I start. .... [/quote']This is well put, and exactly jives with my take on the system.

 

But of course, I am only stating the obvious, here

 

(Didn't used to shrink text? For some reason, this doesn't work for me, anymore...)

[cutsleeve]

Re: Hero is broken

 

you know theres really no point in arguing about whether hero is broken. All games have parts that seem to be spackled together. The big question is it playable. Hero is playable and its internal system works.

 

Its not like it has a weapons listing for brass knucles that says it adds to unarmed damage but no where in the system does it say how much unarmed damage characters do.

 

It isnt a system where they divide mecha damage and human damage into 2 seperate types of damage then based on what book you play an m1 abrams may or may not be able to hurt a mech.

 

Or have a mechanic where a mediocre artist from a superhero world can end up in a superspy world pick up a few martial arts there then get sucked through a dimensional distortion and end up in a wasteland. suddenly this person becomes the Fist of the North Star with the ability to punch holes in the really tough mecha mentioned above.

 

Believe me Hero isnt that broken. Even if one feature is a bit off about it doesnt make it broken its when you keep encountering rules that dont work that its broken. For the most part Hero's rules work not elegant but they work.

 

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

The rules never state that modifications to BODY' date=' representitive of factors other than size, or mass, shouldn't be given on the same +1 BODY = 2x the "virual effectiveness" method. The rules are just silent. I see absolutely no reason or advantage in assuming that except for size and mass, BODY should be dolled out linearly. Quite the opposite, because of the fact that no matter what score an objects BODY has, that BODY will be used against Damage Classes, much of which is based on STR, and I am likewise convinced that DC's are exponential in nature.[/quote']

 

I didn't say that. I just said that for non-objects (i.e., characters), clearly there can be no real relationship between mass and BODY.

 

You lost me here. To give an example, are you saying that because +5 STR = +1d6 Normal Damage = x2 "power", and +1 BODY = x2 "resistance" consistently in relation to STR, damage, and their exponential nature... that the "notion of either linear or exponential effect is unworkable?" This doesn't make sense to me. I must be miss-interpreting this. Was your intent to focus more on the Character Points?

 

The statement was entirely the intro to the part you agree with.

 

I'm pretty sure I agree with this. The "interplay" is where the game is actually played. A man that is made of blown glass, and runs around in a titanium power-suit, who is shot by an armor-piercing sonic attack, for which he has a Vulnerability Disad for... that is the game.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Yeah, I know... but I'm pretty sure dimensions can be used for stuff like this: People can walk around in Frozen Time... A "fantastic voyage" inside a senator's colon could encounter a giant gloved finger doing a prostate exam... lots of things.

 

And also, dispite being able to walk around, and interact with objects on the Earth, can you really even target or attack the Earth? Things, sure, but the Earth itself? It's just too massive. It's on a whole other scale of reality... atomic bombs do nothing to it... its just so massive.

 

Thus I resubmit that it exists on macro-dimensional scale, and attacks must require the Transdimensional Advantage to affect it.

The idea is not without merit, but I think you're overthinking this. There's certainly no reason to create an entirely new in-game mechanic to deal with Earth's BODY when there's a much simpler method; one already suggested by the rules: Add more BODY

 

With 10,000+ (or whatever) BODY, Earth suddenly become a heck of a lot harder to blow up, and that makes those "puny" little nukes with 20d6+ Killing Attacks much more reasonable. Clearly there is more to damage than just energy, as you've observed previously.

 

Look at the image below. This is the damage caused by a 10cm (4 inch) meteor strike to a house in Chicago in March of 2005. Now IIRC meteors are travelling at a very high rate of speed when they reenter, and Barringer (Meteor) Crater in Arizona was caused by a 20-meter meteor travelling about 20km/s, and that created a 1.2 km wide crater. But the Chicago inpact merely smashed through a roof and wrecked a computer printer even though its speed was probably similar.

 

Now (according to some) using HERO and a mass*velocity=energy formula we should be able to calculate how much damage a small rock would do in dice based on it's mass and velocity, then scale up to the Barringer Crater meteor (exponentially?) and do the same. My question is: If one grants that the Chicago impact does a mere 1d6 K (I'm fairly certain it would have killed any human it hit), then according to the "HERO damage is exponential" school of thought I suspect the Barringer Crater impact 49,000 years ago should have theoretically destroyed the Earth if Earth has only 86 BODY. Last time I looked, we're still here. As you correctly pointed out, such tremendous events, while colossal on a human scale, are simply insignificant on the scale of planetary bodies.

 

Hopefully one of our more mathematically gifted members will run the numbers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero is broken

 

The idea is not without merit' date=' but I think you're overthinking this. There's certainly no reason to create an entirely new in-game mechanic to deal with Earth's BODY when there's a much simpler method; one already suggested by the rules: [i']Add more BODY[/i]

 

With 10,000+ (or whatever) BODY, Earth suddenly become a heck of a lot harder to blow up, and that makes those "puny" little nukes with 20d6+ Killing Attacks much more reasonable. Clearly there is more to damage than just energy, as you've observed previously.

 

5er, p 447 puts 1 hex of dirt at 0 DEF, 10 BOD. How many hexes of dirt do you need to remove just to get at the juicy center parts and actually damage the Earth? 1,000 seems like a relatively low number, but that alone provides Earth a 10,000 BOD before we even get to the harder bits.

 

Or you can treat the "crunchy center" like it's surrounded by a huge Entangle of dirt, I suppose.

 

Hero lacks mechanics for planet-busting because it's not common in the source material, and when it does appear, it's a plot device, not a mechanical attack. Do you really think we'd see a scene where the Death Star rolled low and had to take a second shot to destroy a planet?

 

Sure, there are encounters in the comics (Ego comes to mind) but these plotlines center not on beating on the ground until Ego is finally KO';d, but finding a vital system to attack, or a means to persuade him to go away. Characters fight the human-size Ego Antibodies, not the huge face itself.

 

Let's look at the other extreme - how many dice damage does my toothbrush do? What is the DEF and BOD of the microorganisms making up the plaque on my teeth. What modifiers do various toothpaste brands add? How much toothpaste per modifier? I don't know, nor do I care. It's not necessary, or even helpful, to have these stats. It adds nothing to my game. It is sufficient, to me, that my character brushes his teeth and that is the end of the plaque.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero is broken

 

5er, p 447 puts 1 hex of dirt at 0 DEF, 10 BOD. How many hexes of dirt do you need to remove just to get at the juicy center parts and actually damage the Earth? 1,000 seems like a relatively low number, but that alone provides Earth a 10,000 BOD before we even get to the harder bits.

 

Or you can treat the "crunchy center" like it's surrounded by a huge Entangle of dirt, I suppose.

 

Hero lacks mechanics for planet-busting because it's not common in the source material, and when it does appear, it's a plot device, not a mechanical attack. Do you really think we'd see a scene where the Death Star rolled low and had to take a second shot to destroy a planet?

 

Sure, there are encounters in the comics (Ego comes to mind) but these plotlines center not on beating on the ground until Ego is finally KO';d, but finding a vital system to attack, or a means to persuade him to go away. Characters fight the human-size Ego Antibodies, not the huge face itself.

 

Let's look at the other extreme - how many dice damage does my toothbrush do? What is the DEF and BOD of the microorganisms making up the plaque on my teeth. What modifiers do various toothpaste brands add? How much toothpaste per modifier? I don't know, nor do I care. It's not necessary, or even helpful, to have these stats. It adds nothing to my game. It is sufficient, to me, that my character brushes his teeth and that is the end of the plaque.

I agree 100%. If a bacterium set off a small "nuke" proportional to his size within our mouths, it would probably blow a new cavity in our molar, not blow our head off or "destroy the world." Scale is always a factor, as are energy, the composition of the target, and the nature of the attacking force. That's why simple mass * velocity = damage calculations cannot cover all circumstances.

 

As an example, early fin-stabilized sabot rounds from tank guns were devastating out to about 2000 meters, but failed utterly much beyond that range. Why? Because the projectile was moving so fast that over 2000 meters it started to melt from friction with the air and what hit the target became a rod of semi-molten metal rather than a red-hot arrow of steel. It weighed just as much and was travelling just as fast, but without the point to focus the impact energy into a tiny area (effectively multiplying the force)the projectile became virtually useless. With improvements in material science, such as using tungsten or depleted uranium sabots, we can now engage targets up to 5 kilometers away. It's not just how hard something hits, but how it focuses that impact, that determines what the effect on the target will be.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Look at the image below. This is the damage caused by a 10cm (4 inch) meteor strike to a house in Chicago in March of 2005. Now IIRC meteors are travelling at a very high rate of speed when they reenter, and Barringer (Meteor) Crater in Arizona was caused by a 20-meter meteor travelling about 20km/s, and that created a 1.2 km wide crater. But the Chicago inpact merely smashed through a roof and wrecked a computer printer even though its speed was probably similar.

 

Now (according to some) using HERO and a mass*velocity=energy formula we should be able to calculate how much damage a small rock would do in dice based on it's mass and velocity, then scale up to the Barringer Crater meteor (exponentially?) and do the same. My question is: If one grants that the Chicago impact does a mere 1d6 K (I'm fairly certain it would have killed any human it hit), then according to the "HERO damage is exponential" school of thought I suspect the Barringer Crater impact 49,000 years ago should have theoretically destroyed the Earth if Earth has only 86 BODY. Last time I looked, we're still here. As you correctly pointed out, such tremendous events, while colossal on a human scale, are simply insignificant on the scale of planetary bodies.

 

Hopefully one of our more mathematically gifted members will run the numbers.

Lets find out if that is true. . . .

 

Lets figure the Mass first:

 

Assume stone is about 300 lbs per cubic foot.

 

20 meters in radius = a volume of 4/3 PI * R^3 = 1.333 *3.14 * 20^3 = 1.333 *3.14 * 8000 = 33,485 cubic meters. That is the volume of the projectile.

 

Because I know the value of a cubic foot of stone, I'm going to convert over to english values for a moment. . . .

 

1 cubic meter is approximately 35.3 cubic feet. So 35.5 * 33,485 = 1,183,000 cubic feet. That is the volume of the projectile in cubic feet.

 

Now to figure the actual weight (based on volume times the weight per cubic foot). And 1,183,000 * 300 = 355,000,000 lbs

 

Converting the weight back to metric (1 kg = 2.2 lbs) we have 161,000,000 kg.

 

To figure energy the formula is 0.5 * Mass * Velocity^2

 

So the we get: 0.5 * 161,000,000 * 20,000^2

 

= 80,000,000 * 400,000,000 = 3.2 * 10 ^16 Joules

 

So the end result of the energy of the collusion is: 3.2 * 10 ^16 Joules

 

 

For comparision:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaton

 

A Megaton is 4.184 x 10^15 Joules

 

So you can see this is on the order of an 8 megaton blast.

 

Converting to HERO terms:

 

Rated along the energy patterns of the firearm damage in HERO, an impact of 3.2 * 10 ^16 Joules would be:

 

10 DCs = 2 * 10^4 Joules

20 DCs = 2 * 10^7 Joules

30 DCs = 2 * 10^10 Joules

40 DCs = 2 * 10^13 Joules

50 DCs = 2 * 10^16 Joules

51 DCs = 4 * 10^16 Joules

 

So this is the equivilent of a 51d6 EB. It might be as high as 52d6 if we assumed that the object was made of solid iron.

 

While this is a big attack, it would not destroy the Earth.

 

 

This actually gets to one of the key misconceptions that many people may have about exponential systems. There is this idea that somehow the system is "fundimentally flawed."

 

In this case the idea is put forth that an asteroid would destroy the Earth using the exponential system.

 

This concept is absolutely incorrect. The system is totally air tight.

 

 

Exponential Scales are used in science all the time they are accurate. But, and here is the thing, IF YOU USE AN EXPONENTIAL SCALE, YOU MUST BE CONSISTENT ABOUT IT.

 

If BODY doubles with every point, then when you are doing damage, 50+50 is NOT 100. 50 + 50 (exponential scale) = 51 total damage

 

Currently HERO bases damage on an exponential scale and then allows 8 attacks, that do 10 BODY each, to destroy the Earth. *NEWsFLASH* On an exponential scale 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10 does NOT equal 80. On an exponential scale 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10 = 13 BODY damage total.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Hero is broken

 

If BODY doubles with every point' date=' then when you are doing damage, 50+50 is [u']NOT[/u] 100. 50 + 50 (exponential scale) = 51 total damage

 

Currently HERO bases damage on an exponential scale and then allows 8 attacks, that do 10 BODY each, to destroy the Earth. *NEWsFLASH* On an exponential scale 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10 does NOT equal 80. On an exponential scale 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10 = 13 BODY damage total.

 

That's why Hero is broken. Adding BODY damage from multiple attacks linearly results in nonsense. It's fun to play and easy, so it's good for a game system but still isn't right.

 

Still, BODY is weird in the comics. Sometimes you can disintegrate something (i.e. 2x BODY) with a single attack. Sometimes the same attack knocks something back but otherwise doesn't hurt it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Lets find out if that is true. . . .

 

Lets figure the Mass first:

 

Assume stone is about 300 lbs per cubic foot.

 

20 meters in radius = a volume of 4/3 PI * R^3 = 1.333 *3.14 * 20^3 = 1.333 *3.14 * 8000 = 33,485 cubic meters. That is the volume of the projectile.

 

Because I know the value of a cubic foot of stone, I'm going to convert over to english values for a moment. . . .

 

1 cubic meter is approximately 35.3 cubic feet. So 35.5 * 33,485 = 1,183,000 cubic feet. That is the volume of the projectile in cubic feet.

 

Now to figure the actual weight (based on volume times the weight per cubic foot). And 1,183,000 * 300 = 355,000,000 lbs

 

Converting the weight back to metric (1 kg = 2.2 lbs) we have 161,000,000 kg.

 

To figure energy the formula is 0.5 * Mass * Velocity^2

 

So the we get: 0.5 * 161,000,000 * 20,000^2

 

= 80,000,000 * 400,000,000 = 3.2 * 10 ^16 Joules

 

So the end result of the energy of the collusion is: 3.2 * 10 ^16 Joules

 

 

For comparision:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaton

 

A Megaton is 4.184 x 10^15 Joules

 

So you can see this is on the order of an 8 megaton blast.

 

Converting to HERO terms:

 

Rated along the energy patterns of the firearm damage in HERO, an impact of 3.2 * 10 ^16 Joules would be:

 

10 DCs = 2 * 10^4 Joules

20 DCs = 2 * 10^7 Joules

30 DCs = 2 * 10^10 Joules

40 DCs = 2 * 10^13 Joules

50 DCs = 2 * 10^16 Joules

51 DCs = 4 * 10^16 Joules

 

So this is the equivilent of a 51d6 EB. It might be as high as 52d6 if we assumed that the object was made of solid iron.

 

While this is a big attack, it would not destroy the Earth.

 

 

This actually gets to one of the key misconceptions that many people may have about exponential systems. There is this idea that somehow the system is "fundimentally flawed."

 

In this case the idea is put forth that an asteroid would destroy the Earth using the exponential system.

 

This concept is absolutely incorrect. The system is totally air tight.

 

 

Exponential Scales are used in science all the time they are accurate. But, and here is the thing, IF YOU USE AN EXPONENTIAL SCALE, YOU MUST BE CONSISTENT ABOUT IT.

 

If BODY doubles with every point, then when you are doing damage, 50+50 is NOT 100. 50 + 50 (exponential scale) = 51 total damage

 

Currently HERO bases damage on an exponential scale and then allows 8 attacks, that do 10 BODY each, to destroy the Earth. *NEWsFLASH* On an exponential scale 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10 does NOT equal 80. On an exponential scale 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+10 = 13 BODY damage total.

Assuming your calculation are correct, that would certainly seem to put the kibosh on the "A nuke is only 12d6K" theory. I don't think any megaton-range bomb we've ever detonated left a crater 7/10th of a mile across and a 1/4 mile deep like Meteor Crater.

 

However, even a 51d6 attack did nothing more than raise a tiny pore on the skin of our planet. A horrific disaster if it hit a city or coastline; but utterly negligible on a planetary scale. A thousand such iumpacts wouldn't destroy the Earth*, although it'd do a number on the flora and fauna, including us.

 

* In fact, it would be increasing the mass of the Earth.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

However, even a 51d6 attack did nothing more than raise a tiny pore on the skin of our planet. A horrific disaster if it hit a city or coastline; but utterly negligible on a planetary scale. A thousand such iumpacts wouldn't destroy the Earth*, although it'd do a number on the flora and fauna, including us.

 

* In fact, it would be increasing the mass of the Earth.

That is the whole point the second half of my post. You must think exponentially if you want accurate results when using an exponential system.

 

Even assuming that the Earth has 0 DEF and takes 51 points of BODY from the strike, 2 such attacks added together should NOT do 102 BODY total. Thinking exponentially, 51 damage + 51 damage = 52 BODY damage total.

 

One Thousand 51d6 attacks should (assuming a 0 def Earth) should result in 61 points of BODY damage.

 

One Million 51d6 attacks should (assuming a 0 def Earth) should result in 71 points of BODY damage.

 

The problems come when you try to mix exponential and linear scales. I do really like HERO, but that is a point where the system does have a few problems (IMO, of course).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Even assuming that the Earth has 0 DEF and takes 51 points of BODY from the strike' date=' 2 such attacks added together should [u']NOT[/u] do 102 BODY total. Thinking exponentially, 51 damage + 51 damage = 52 BODY damage total.

 

One Thousand 51d6 attacks should (assuming a 0 def Earth) should result in 61 points of BODY damage.

 

One Million 51d6 attacks should (assuming a 0 def Earth) should result in 71 points of BODY damage.

 

The problems come when you try to mix exponential and linear scales. I do really like HERO, but that is a point where the system does have a few problems (IMO, of course).

 

Let's try a simple experiment. Assume Earth has 86 BOD. Attack A hits Earth, inflicting 43 BOD (after whatever defenses it has).

 

First, how many additional hits are required to destroy the Earth, using your interpretation of how exponential damage should work?

 

Seoond, how many hits does it take to destroy something with:

 

54 BOD

 

61 BOD

 

69 BOD

 

72 BOD

 

78 BOD

 

Third, reduce this to a simple, easily explained and understood algorithm which will facilitate a playable game.

 

It's fine to discuss the absolue math and science behind the system, but if you render the game unplayable, what's the point? Show me your playable replacement which fits within your view of how things should work.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Let's try a simple experiment. Assume Earth has 86 BOD. Attack A hits Earth, inflicting 43 BOD (after whatever defenses it has).

 

First, how many additional hits are required to destroy the Earth, using your interpretation of how exponential damage should work?

An attack that can inflict 43 BODY?

86 - 43 = 43

2^43 Hits

 

Seoond, how many hits does it take to destroy something with:

 

54 BOD

 

61 BOD

 

69 BOD

 

72 BOD

 

78 BOD

Respectively

54 BOD : 86 - 54 = 32 = 2^32 Hits (4 Billion hits)

61 BOD : 86 - 61 = 25 = 2^25 Hits (32 million hits)

69 BOD : 86 - 69 = 17 = 2^17 Hits (128,000 hits)

72 BOD : 86 - 72 = 14 = 2^14 Hits (16,000 hits)

78 BOD : 86 - 78 = 8 = 2^8 Hits (256 hits)

 

Third, reduce this to a simple, easily explained and understood algorithm which will facilitate a playable game.

 

Algorithm

 

Number of hits to destroy = 2 taken to the power of (Object Body + Def - DCs of attack)

 

So a 25 BODY object with 5 DEF would require the following number of hits to destroy from a 10d6 EB. . . .

 

2^(30 - 10) = 2^20 = 1 million hits to destroy

 

 

With a 20d6 EB you'd have 2^(30-20) = 2^10 = 1,024 hits to destroy

 

With a 30d6 EB you'd have 2^(30-30) = 2^0 = 1 hit to destroy

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hero is broken

 

That is the whole point the second half of my post. You must think exponentially if you want accurate results when using an exponential system.

 

Even assuming that the Earth has 0 DEF and takes 51 points of BODY from the strike, 2 such attacks added together should NOT do 102 BODY total. Thinking exponentially, 51 damage + 51 damage = 52 BODY damage total.

 

One Thousand 51d6 attacks should (assuming a 0 def Earth) should result in 61 points of BODY damage.

 

One Million 51d6 attacks should (assuming a 0 def Earth) should result in 71 points of BODY damage.

 

The problems come when you try to mix exponential and linear scales. I do really like HERO, but that is a point where the system does have a few problems (IMO, of course).

I agree with you on the problems of exponential mixing with linear damage systems. The Hero damage system may or may not be exponential, but exponentially fails miserably in the "playability" category. That's why in general I prefer to use a strictly linear system. It's far easier to use and is far more intuitive to the average player and GM. Who wants to go through all the math you just did to figure out an impact? Everyone understand that a 20d6 attack does twice as much damage as a 10d6 one in game effect. Human just don't think in terms of millions and billions of times more energy. If 1d6 is our baseline, then how many times more powerful is an 12d6 attack than a 10d6 one if figured exponentially?Does that agree with the effects within the game on a target? Logic shows that 12d6 is 20% more effective than 10d6 within the system, not 400%.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hero is broken

 

That is the whole point the second half of my post. You must think exponentially if you want accurate results when using an exponential system.

 

Even assuming that the Earth has 0 DEF and takes 51 points of BODY from the strike, 2 such attacks added together should NOT do 102 BODY total. Thinking exponentially, 51 damage + 51 damage = 52 BODY damage total.

 

One Thousand 51d6 attacks should (assuming a 0 def Earth) should result in 61 points of BODY damage.

 

One Million 51d6 attacks should (assuming a 0 def Earth) should result in 71 points of BODY damage.

 

The problems come when you try to mix exponential and linear scales. I do really like HERO, but that is a point where the system does have a few problems (IMO, of course).

 

Which is why I'd dump any notion of exponentional damage or BODY from HERO.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

(snip)

 

Hero lacks mechanics for planet-busting because it's not common in the source material, and when it does appear, it's a plot device, not a mechanical attack. Do you really think we'd see a scene where the Death Star rolled low and had to take a second shot to destroy a planet?

 

 

But I want to play planet-eating Galactus!

 

Seriously, though, I could see handling a sort of macroverse and microverse scale. I'm not sure it's even that complex. Your tooth brush example could simply be handled, in theory, by just declaring the plaque to be the new "human scale" against which the toothbrush is built. Something like that. The point would be to move simply from one scale to another.

 

I think also there could be lurking some solution to more elegantly handle megascale and these things in one manner. But as you and Trebuchet say, these situations don't come up enough for me to think through more than casually due to threads like this. The only time it did come up was dealing with huge vehicle combat and I gave how I handled that above.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I agree with you on the problems of exponential mixing with linear damage systems. The Hero damage system may or may not be exponential' date=' but exponentially fails miserably in the "playability" category. That's why in general I prefer to use a strictly linear system. It's far easier to use and is far more intuitive to the average player and GM. Who wants to go through all the math you just did to figure out an impact? Everyone understand that a 20d6 attack does twice as much damage as a 10d6 one [i']in game effect[/i]. Human just don't think in terms of millions and billions of times more energy. If 1d6 is our baseline, then how many times more powerful is an 12d6 attack than a 10d6 one if figured exponentially?Does that agree with the effects within the game on a target? Logic shows that 12d6 is 20% more effective than 10d6 within the system, not 400%.

But I think in terms of "effectiveness" it's far more tricky. In a campaign where 12d6 is about what a roughly standard attack, then 10d6 is often even less effective proportionately, since defenses are built more towards the 12d6 standard. IF, say, defenses are typically 20, let's say, then the 10d6 will often do 15 STUN while the 12d6 will do 22 STUN, so it's almost 50% more effective.

 

That was my point about effectiveness - the basis of the system probably is exponential, given early designers' comments and observed STR effects, but that doesn't and shouldn't translate to anything less than a very much non-straightforward effectiveness.