Why does flying cost the same amount as running?

[Snarf]

Both flying and running cost 2 character points per 1" of movement. I must be missing something, because it seems like flying is much more useful. So, why do they cost the same amount?

[Jeff]

Running would be far too attractive at 1 point per 1"; Flight would be far too unattractive at 3 points per 1"; Running has no turn mode; and you get 6" of it free, while you have to start at 0" for Flight.

[Kintara]

Right. Also, I think that the danger Flight poses as a Constant power is notable. If someone hurts you enough to deactivate your flight, you might get rather inconvenienced by gravity.

 

But the fact that Running starts at 6" is a good point. Of course, I wouldn't let a character buy only a single level of Flight, even if it was enhanced with power advantages, because I think the benefit of defying gravity requires a significant investment.

[BobGreenwade]

Besides the Turn Mode on Flight and the base 6" of Running, there's also the -1d6 to Knockback rolls, and the fact that Flight costs END to use even when you're just staying in one spot.

 

And I'm sure a creative, observant bunch of folks like this one can come up with even more....

[Kintara]

Ah, beat me to that one. I'm not a real expert with the rules yet, so I was about to check on that. So, yeah, the END cost.

 

So, to make them rather closer to eachother in safety, and not rather fatiguing, you'd want to buy it to the Persistent level. So that makes it 4 points a level.

[Snarf]

Aha! Now it seems balanced, as long as some sort of minimum point investment is enforced. I suppose requiring at least 10 points worth would be enough.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Kintara

Ah, beat me to that one. I'm not a real expert with the rules yet, so I was about to check on that. So, yeah, the END cost.

 

So, to make them rather closer to eachother in safety, and not rather fatiguing, you'd want to buy it to the Persistent level. So that makes it 4 points a level.

 

Yes 4 points a level would make it 0 endurance (+1/2), plus persistant (+1/2). But don't forget special effect. Why is it that your character's flight doesn't turn off when he's unconscious?

 

For people who aren't familiar with the rules, you folks did pretty well. I've played Hero Games for 21 years, and you figured it out fine.

 

Originally posted by Snarf

Aha! Now it seems balanced, as long as some sort of minimum point investment is enforced. I suppose requiring at least 10 points worth would be enough.[/Quote]

 

4th Edition used to require a minimum of 20 points of flight, if I remember correctly, but they did away with that in the 5th Edition.

 

[Snarf]

20 points sounds good. I'll relay that to my players.

[Derek Hiemforth]

The minimum cost in 4th Edition was 10 points (5" of Flight).

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Kintara

Ah, beat me to that one. I'm not a real expert with the rules yet, so I was about to check on that. So, yeah, the END cost.

 

So, to make them rather closer to eachother in safety, and not rather fatiguing, you'd want to buy it to the Persistent level. So that makes it 4 points a level.

Uh... you mean, 4 points per inch, don't you?

[CorpCommander]

To Quote the Tick

 

To quote the Tick:

 

Gravity is a harsh mistress!

[Blue Angel]

While we are on the topic there is one power construct that always bothered me... Flight only in contact with a surface (-1/4). This power is just way too useful for it's points. You can go anywhere except for open air at a lower cost than running.

 

Hmmm... greater power for less cost. That doesn't seem right.

 

Except for the traveling over water part it sounds like running plus clinging with cannot resist knowkback (-1/4).

The traveling on water part sounds like swimming only along the surface (-1) with the special effect "running on the surface" with possibly an environmental movement thrown in to justify how comparatively easy it is to run on the surface.

 

Maybe I missed something but it looks like the surface flight breaks the "do not use a power with modifiers to make another power" rule.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

While we are on the topic there is one power construct that always bothered me... Flight only in contact with a surface (-1/4). This power is just way too useful for it's points. You can go anywhere except for open air at a lower cost than running.

 

Hmmm... greater power for less cost. That doesn't seem right.

 

You do still have the turn mode problem. Practically, Running plus the limited Clinging is going to be better in many ways. My problem with it is that it's just a bit silly - my suspension of disbelief is strained at runs straight up walls or over oceans on account of sheer speed, and if it is supposed to be simple ultrafast running, why _is_ there that turn mode problem suddenly?

Except for the traveling over water part it sounds like running plus clinging with cannot resist knowkback (-1/4).

The traveling on water part sounds like swimming only along the surface (-1/2) with the special effect "running on the surface" with possibly an environmental movement thrown in to justify how comparatively easy it is to run on the surface.

 

Maybe I missed something but it looks like the surface flight breaks the "do not use a power with modifiers to make another power" rule.

 

Nah. It's a way to get surface movement without a need for a surface that's supporting you. Why you're supposed to get that, on the other hand, is another question.

[Spence]

My version was "Flight limited to within 3 feet of a surface". The hero's flight was telekinetic based and he had to be close to "something" in order to levitate himself.

[Kintara]

Originally posted by BobGreenwade

Uh... you mean, 4 points per inch, don't you?

 

Well, an inch happens to be to what one level corresponds. I see your point though, non-combat movement could be confused with inches of normal flight, if I used the term "level" too much.

 

 

Did I mention, ?

 

Anyway, do most GMs use minimum costs, as outlined in the book? What power level do you stop using them? Maybe this problem with Flight implies that there should be some starting level that costs more. After all, that single inch of Flight is far more useful than any other successive level. Maybe that should be modeled more directly.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Kintara

 

Well, an inch happens to be to what one level corresponds. I see your point though, non-combat movement could be confused with inches of normal flight, if I used the term "level" too much.

 

 

Did I mention, ?

 

Anyway, do most GMs use minimum costs, as outlined in the book? What power level do you stop using them? Maybe this problem with Flight implies that there should be some starting level that costs more. After all, that single inch of Flight is far more useful than any other successive level. Maybe that should be modeled more directly.

 

I think it is already. 1" Flight gets you no faster movement than you had already, with 2" Swimming, 2" Leaping, and 6" Running. You have to get 3" before you're faster than your base off-the-ground movement, or 7" before you're faster than your normal horizontal movement. Before that, it's basically just a non-persistent sort of LS: Immune to Falling.

[Chris Goodwin]

History lesson. Flight is 2 points per inch because as far back as first edition Champions, it was determined that flying was a common ability in the comics, and that it should be cheap to reflect this.

 

Flight, Only In Contact With A Surface was a pre-4th edition construct used to build speedsters by taking advantage of ridiculous noncombat multiples given Flight way back then. I don't recall the exact formula, but by buying 10" of Flight, you could get something like 140" per Phase of noncombat Flight. Running had the straight 2x noncombat. So if you wanted a speedster, you bought Flight Only In Contact etc. You got the added bonus of being able to do common speedster tricks like running at insane speeds across water, up walls, along wires, etc.

 

So, it's basically a historical artifact that has stuck even though the mechanics of Flight have changed somewhat.

 

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Derek Hiemforth

The minimum cost in 4th Edition was 10 points (5" of Flight).

 

Thanks Derek, where is that 4th Edition Rulebook anyway? LOL

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by archer

History lesson. Flight is 2 points per inch because as far back as first edition Champions, it was determined that flying was a common ability in the comics, and that it should be cheap to reflect this.

 

Flight, Only In Contact With A Surface was a pre-4th edition construct used to build speedsters by taking advantage of ridiculous noncombat multiples given Flight way back then. I don't recall the exact formula, but by buying 10" of Flight, you could get something like 140" per Phase of noncombat Flight. Running had the straight 2x noncombat. So if you wanted a speedster, you bought Flight Only In Contact etc. You got the added bonus of being able to do common speedster tricks like running at insane speeds across water, up walls, along wires, etc.

 

So, it's basically a historical artifact that has stuck even though the mechanics of Flight have changed somewhat.

 

Yeh, and I didn't think much of it back then either.

 

The flight along a surface doesn't bother me it is the cheapness of it compared to running that is unballanced. I would prefer to see it done as a -0 lim advantage/disadvantage tradeoff. Say something like only along a surface but eliminate the extra knockback of flite. Thus there is a tradoff but the cost remains in line with running.

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Kintara

Well, an inch happens to be to what one level corresponds. I see your point though, non-combat movement could be confused with inches of normal flight, if I used the term "level" too much.

Or we might think you're talking about Skill Levels (which is how I initially interpreted your first post).

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Galadorn

Thanks Derek, where is that 4th Edition Rulebook anyway? LOL

On my computer: I bought the PDF version of the HSR. It's very handy. Not as complete or up-to-date as FREd, of course, but people at the office don't give me funny looks when I consult it.

[Thirdbase]

Originally posted by Jeff

You do still have the turn mode problem. Practically, Running plus the limited Clinging is going to be better in many ways. My problem with it is that it's just a bit silly - my suspension of disbelief is strained at runs straight up walls or over oceans on account of sheer speed, and if it is supposed to be simple ultrafast running, why _is_ there that turn mode problem suddenly?

 

 

Nah. It's a way to get surface movement without a need for a surface that's supporting you. Why you're supposed to get that, on the other hand, is another question. [/b]

 

You obviously haven't seen the Swamp Buggy Races. These vehicles actually will run along the surface of the water for short distances.

 

Besides it's a classic speedster trick to be able to run up a wall or across the surface of a body of water. To do this otherwise you would have to buy Swimming with limitations, Clinging with limitations, and Running

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Kintara

Anyway, do most GMs use minimum costs, as outlined in the book? What power level do you stop using them? Maybe this problem with Flight implies that there should be some starting level that costs more. After all, that single inch of Flight is far more useful than any other successive level. Maybe that should be modeled more directly.

 

Historically, I think this is part of the problem minimum costs were intended to address.

 

Anyway, I'm sure that mathematically there comes a point where it is more cost effective to buy Flight, Only On A Surface, than to buy additional Running. I think that if you buy off your base Running, that point becomes 0" of Running. Of course, that falls into the realm of gaming the system rather than playing the game, and should be discouraged, with violence if necessary.

[zornwil]

As others have said it's a genre thing from when HERO was a super-hero game. It probably can be viewed as "broken" for pulp or even most fantasy games where you really don't want people flying but I don't think groups have had problems enforcing genre conventions by making flight have additional requirements (cost, concentration, technology with skill roll, etc.) in those other genres.

 

I've seen the "take a lim for flying ONLY on surfaces" thing discussed before, I think that argument dies out quickly because of the HERO rule that you can't buy something already provided for at a greater cost-break, so this form of movement must be different from running/walking, and the limitation isn't so much that it's only on surfaces but moreso that you have to keep moving at a minimum speed of some sensible sort to keep it up. Granted, that probably doesn't come into play enough in some people's minds to justify the lim, but it works for me.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Jeff

I think it is already. 1" Flight gets you no faster movement than you had already, with 2" Swimming, 2" Leaping, and 6" Running. You have to get 3" before you're faster than your base off-the-ground movement, or 7" before you're faster than your normal horizontal movement. Before that, it's basically just a non-persistent sort of LS: Immune to Falling.

 

1" of flight is far too cost effective at 2 pts. It's effectively the climbing skill with no chance of failure, and it makes you immune to falls while conscious.

 

Climbing at base level already costs 3 pts, and to buy it to 17- would cost even more pts.