Genocide

[Squall]

Re: Genocide

 

Stupid of Reed and Sue' date=' of course. I would have thought that the nature of my arguments to the defense of my position would have left little doubt of that, but having gone back over them, I'll concede a small possibility that somebody could have misinterpreted my position in such a manner.[/quote']

Uhh, seing as how you very recently spent the better part of a post ranting about stupid writers and pointless "Western" comics (and how the writers twist the heroes around and break characters all the time), maybe there's more than a "small possibility" that that could have been your position.

 

But, hey, way to be a big condescending jackass while someone tries to apologize for a misunderstanding.

[Weldun]

Re: Genocide

 

Uhh, seing as how you very recently spent the better part of a post ranting about stupid writers and pointless "Western" comics (and how the writers twist the heroes around and break characters all the time), maybe there's more than a "small possibility" that that could have been your position.

 

But, hey, way to be a big condescending jackass while someone tries to apologize for a misunderstanding.

I intended there to be sarcasm, not condecention, but fair enough.

[Squall]

Re: Genocide

 

Bah. I quit. I'm tired of misunderstanding you and looking stupid. I'll just be over here, eating crow.

[Weldun]

Re: Genocide

 

Bah. I quit. I'm tired of misunderstanding you and looking stupid. I'll just be over here' date=' eating crow.[/quote']We really need some kind of sarcasm emoticon.

[LoresLost]

Re: Genocide

 

Is it realistic that people could have a "one-drop" rule which said that if someone had one identifiably African ancestor' date=' then they were not white, regardless of their actual pallor, but as long as people didn't look very Asian, they were still white?[/quote']

 

While things like the one drop rule happen, it was because of some form of identification (in this case a genealogical records). In the US south may light skin blacks passed them self off as white during segregation (and earlier) and inversely many dark skinned Europeans (Mediterranean immigrants) where treated as black in the US south. In South Africa (where I beleive the one drop rule is from) Asians where also treated differently from whites, less restrictions then blacks but still differently. If someone can SEE a difference they will use it to discrinate agaist the other. If I have dark skin and very curly hair I must be part black is the thought in the above socities and I will be treated poorly, even if I am from a good southern Italian family, who has not married out of Italy for a 1000 years. In a Marvel like anti mutant universe, If I have a freaky power, no matter the source, I should be suppected of being a mutant by the anti mutant crowd no matter the proof I give.

 

If it "waddles and quacks its a duck" argument is what I am making. Cyclops shoots rays from his eyes and otherwise looks normal. Ben Grimm looks like an accident at the brick plant. Cyclops has people trying to kill him cause he is different, why are not the same people trying to kill Ben. Why? Ben is just as freaky if not more so then Cyclops. And how do I know he did not kill the REAL Ben Grimm and claim that he was changed by a freak accident. And if he is the Real Ben, how do I know that he could hid his mutation until he got a power bump from the radiation accident.

 

In fact lets go further. The accident that made Ben Grimm the Thing should have killed him, but it did not. How did he survive? According to the Marvel rubber science, he had a quality that made him acceptable to change. My understading of the Marvel rubber genitics is that their are three groups of humanity, Gene stable Eternials, Gene unstable Devants and Gene latent normals. The Thing and Cyclops are both from the last group. Cyclops was born, nay, conceived with an active ablity that can be detected by some weird device to detect mutants. The Thing got his power by being bathed in cosmic radiation that should have killed him with radiation posioning.

 

In a congressional hearing, I don't have the FF comic (like contiuity means something in a comic book), Reed is able to detect people who could develop powers, they have latent powers, with a device he created. Cerberos can detect active power mutations but does not detect run of the mill genetic defects (true real life mutations) nor the latent power ablity. The latent power gene by our (real life, like that counts) defenintiton is a mutation. So what I am saying is groups that hate mutants would also see the latent power gene as a threat to the purity of humanity as well. So Ben, Reed, Sue and Johnny should not get any love from the anti-mutant geeks.

 

That was quite a lot, I hope their is some light and little heat.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Genocide

 

They know that Storm is a mutant because she's a member of the X-Men' date=' a specifically mutant organisation. [/quote']

Yeah, fair point. Bad example on my part, but I failed my KS: Marvel Universe roll and couldn't think of a "known mutant" who wasn't an X-Man.

 

I would say that Franklin is basically a Breed Mutant ... as in the possible pre-cursor to a new species entirely.

Which kinda gets to my point: if people love Reed & Sue because they got their powers by accident, but hate Cyclops, et. al. because they're afraid humanity will be "replaced"... shouldn't they also be afraid of Franklin?

 

So what I am saying is groups that hate mutants would also see the latent power gene as a threat to the purity of humanity as well. So Ben' date=' Reed, Sue and Johnny should not get any love from the anti-mutant geeks. [/quote']

I would tend to agree. Tho to be fair, prejudice is seldom rational even in the real world.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Genocide

 

Yeah' date=' fair point. Bad example on my part, but I failed my KS: Marvel Universe roll and couldn't think of a "known mutant" who wasn't an X-Man. [/quote']

 

Scarlet Witch. All those other Avengers are OK, but NOT Scarlet Witch - she's a mutant!

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Genocide

 

Scarlet Witch. All those other Avengers are OK' date=' but NOT Scarlet Witch - she's a mutant![/quote']

There you go! Before it became known that she was Magneto's daughter, that it.

[starblaze]

Re: Genocide

 

On the other hand, superhumans who were once normals who had an accident could be more acceptable with the same logic people use when justifing not going to the doctor on a regular basis, yakking on the cell phone while driving, etc because those sort of things happen to "other people".

 

Mutants are something else. You could create one. Mutants didn't suffer any accidents, no exposure to radiation, no high tech armor, no supercop. Mutants just are. That's what frightens people. Your boss, your neighbor, your daughter, could have uncontrollable power and not even know it.

 

Now I know a lot of this can be applied to other superhumans. For all you know the rude neighbor down the block is a supervillain in disguise. But remember mutants exist in real life. They don't have powers. They often have deformities we call "birth defects" or if you want to use softer language "genetic disorders". So parents of a mutant know something they can't accept, they made their child a mutant. They are responsible.

 

"Bobby do you think you could to not be a mutant?"

[starblaze]

Re: Genocide

 

Sometimes a good P.R. agent is all you need.

 

The reason that the X-men are not trusted and the Avengers and F.F. are is because they have a better image to the public. The Avengers are a sanctioned team of supers and the F.F., last time I checked are a corporation. The X-men however are a mysterious and unknown entity with an agenda that is pretty much unknown.

 

Also it has to do with the general overall premise of the teams. The Fantastic are Marvel's first family, and BTW they have had bad relations with the public and in fact they have been attacked by the same people they have sworn to protect. So they are in fact celebrity superheroes.

 

The Avengers are Earth Mightiest Heroes. They are the guys that save the world from evil menaces. They are front liners and the best of the best.

 

The X-men are heroes fighting to save a world that hates and fears them. It is by that definition that they are often hunted and hounded by humanity because that is the message of the book.

 

Also don't forget Days of Future Past. In that future everyone that was different was persecuted. The mutants were just first ones hit.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Genocide

 

Which kinda gets to my point: if people love Reed & Sue because they got their powers by accident, but hate Cyclops, et. al. because they're afraid humanity will be "replaced"... shouldn't they also be afraid of Franklin?

 

Maybe. The only thing that may have a point in Franklin's favor are his parents. Unlike the X-Men, who have always been a bit on the fringe in the past, the FF, for the most part, have been public heroes that have obviously saved the world in many instances. Reed and Sue are a very visable couple, as well as being hailed in the Marvel universe the same way that Charles and Di were in ours. With concerns to their kids, I think the public would be more likely to trust them over the X-Men to do the right thing and monitor their kin.

However, remove the trust issue from the FF and, yes ... I would think that Franklin would fall into the "Mutie" category like he did during Days of Future Past.

[David Johnston]

Re: Genocide

 

While things like the one drop rule happen' date=' it was because of some form of identification (in this case a genealogical records). [/quote']

 

This is true. Which why I pointed out that the reason why people know Storm is a mutant, is because she's an X-Man. Had she made her debut as a solo hero and never self-identified as a mutant, they wouldn't have assumed she was one unless and until she pinged on a mutant detector. The thing is, most people have no clear idea what a "mutant" is. They just know that it's a word that sounds scary, hinting at freakish deformity, and is associated with an organisation dedicated to conquering them and turning them into second class citizens in the short term, and entirely replacing them in the long term.

 

In the marvel public's minds, the idea is widespread that a "mutant" is someone genetically hardwired to displace homo sapiens sapiens all thanks to the great and wonderful saviors of mutantkind, Magneto and Xavier. There are of course people who go beyond that to hate anyone with biologically derived powers, just as there are people who go beyond hating one ethnic group to hate many. But for many, like Gyrich, while they hate them all, the mutants still seemed like the biggest threat simply because they had a sense of group identity, and a presence in sheer numbers that was not shared by any other origin.

[assault]

Re: Genocide

 

On a sidenote: one of my several half-developed Champions universes is strictly based on very early published material, such as the sample characters in the back of 1st edition Champions, the background material presented in Escape from Stronghold - and the background material in the original write-up of Genocide.

[Tamashii2000]

Re: Genocide

 

I never said that the decision was impossibly unlikely' date=' just monumentally stupid.[/quote']

 

Actualy Marvel has dealt with the entire 'franklin' bit a few times - Richards monitored his son during and after the birth (Franklin has been around for a long long time, I think early 70's).

 

The FF has almost broken up at least once because Reed decided to dampen Franklin's power (with a rather large gun) when he started getting out of control. Franklin is powerful enough to one shot major demons and has gotten Eternities attention at least once.

 

 

now Thier daughter (name escapes me) I don't know if she has any powers

[Tamashii2000]

Re: Genocide

 

Yeah, fair point. Bad example on my part, but I failed my KS: Marvel Universe roll and couldn't think of a "known mutant" who wasn't an X-Man.

 

 

You know, in a strange way I think most of the Mutant hating in marvel is the Xmen's fault. Think about it.. you have a group dedicated to good mutant/human relations.. but the team has nothing but mutants on it.. and at least 20 percent of the group... are ex-villians.

 

What the HECK was Pro X thinking?

[Weldun]

Re: Genocide

 

Yeah' date=' fair point. Bad example on my part, but I failed my KS: Marvel Universe roll and couldn't think of a "known mutant" who wasn't an X-Man. [/quote']

 

 

You know, in a strange way I think most of the Mutant hating in marvel is the Xmen's fault. Think about it.. you have a group dedicated to good mutant/human relations.. but the team has nothing but mutants on it.. and at least 20 percent of the group... are ex-villians.

 

What the HECK was Pro X thinking?

I think you have a point here. With a group like the Avengers, you have a collection of superheroes with powers granted from various sources, including the occasional TPO. A group such as this does more for pro-Human/Mutant relationships than an all-mutant group such as the X-men ever will.

[Plex]

Re: Genocide

 

I was reading through this trying to find something new about Genocide- other than them becomming the Institute for Human Advancement - and thought that their becomming an Anti Supers Group sounded really interesting. (Though I can't really remeber what the IHA does off hand.) I could easily see them using all sorts of tech, training, etc... to accomplish their goals. The interesting thing I would find is what would they use as guidelines for what makes a person "normal" and what makes the "different" and as such targeted for cleansing. Are people with high IQ's going to be considered mutants? What if you are really ugly or beautiful? Would aliens from other planets make the list? What about the use of magic? Things of this nature. I think with a little rework they could be really feared. (And of course it would also bring them up to date.)

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Genocide

 

Mutant Detectors?

[David Johnston]

Re: Genocide

 

The answer is no. Aliens would not make the list and neither would magicians or people who just have high IQs. The test would be for some particular kind of genetic deviance from the human norm.

[Alverant]

Re: Genocide

 

The answer is no. Aliens would not make the list and neither would magicians or people who just have high IQs. The test would be for some particular kind of genetic deviance from the human norm.

 

So what justifies a deviance from the human norm? If the ability to use magic is genetic what happens? Not to spark a debate, but if homosexuality is genetic would it also be detected? I need glasses because my eyes are genetically misshaped just like millions of other people. IQ can also be influenced by genes so if someone is really smart could they be a mutant? On the flip side what about genetic defects? If someone is severely retarded due to genes they are technically a mutant.

 

Here's a question, what if an animal is a mutant? Or would that fall under aliens?

[Victim]

Re: Genocide

 

Why would they need some clearcut answer? Isn't it better for the group if they don't have clearly defined boundaries so they can reclassify folks as expedient?

[Alverant]

Re: Genocide

 

Why would they need some clearcut answer? Isn't it better for the group if they don't have clearly defined boundaries so they can reclassify folks as expedient?

 

This assumes the mutant detector isn't yes/no that it can rate mutant abilities. By assigning them to a scale, you have artificial boundaries which leads to complications and misleading labels. For example a hurricane needs 72mph winds to qualify. A tropical storm with 71.5mph winds isn't a hurricane though it is one for all other purposes. A person who is 17 years, 11 months, and 27 days is still technically a minor even though there's no biological transformation that happens at 18 years.

 

In this case, say the mutant scale goes from 1 to 10. One being things like astigmatism or being an albino or something common like that. Ten is, "I say 'jump' and Dr.Destroyer says 'Yes Master'". Three is the anti-mutant group threshold. So if someone had a 2.9 are they OK? Will they be fully accepted as a 'pure' human?

 

Hate groups get together to attack the Other, but as you lower your threshold of Other, the more people get included. So what happens when one of these members find out their wife, child, brother, or even themselves is one of the Other?

[nexus]

Re: Genocide

 

Its an interesting question. Would only positive "mutations" ( I know there is probably some inaccuracy in the terms being used but bear with me it is a dicussion of comics) considered "unatural"? In the Champions Universe you can have attributes up to 30 (or in some cases 50) and be considered human yet capable of some unbelievable feats on a regularl basis as well. I could see IHA, maybe in darker games starting off with one goal and swiftly getting bogged down with infighting over what essentially becomes dogma as people bring their own personal agendas into their "mission". It could make for some interesting scenarios using them aside from straight up mutanting bigotry.

[assault]

Re: Genocide

 

I could see IHA' date=' maybe in darker games starting off with one goal and swiftly getting bogged down with infighting over what essentially becomes dogma as people bring their own personal agendas into their "mission". It could make for some interesting scenarios using them aside from straight up mutanting bigotry.[/quote']

 

Use the old X-Men plot: the latest Minuteman robots begin operating too autonomously and decide all humans are mutants...

[nexus]

Re: Genocide

 

Use the old X-Men plot: the latest Minuteman robots begin operating too autonomously and decide all humans are mutants...

 

That's a good example. I was thinking of more human issues, like other breeds of rascism seeping into the IHA ideology or at least certain groups of them.