Is Find Weakness mispriced?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Something else that hasn't been addressed:

 

FW is essentially an adjustment power that only works on defenses. So why is it that it doesn't get its effects halved like other adjustment powers?

 

Obviously, the game developers felt that adjustment powers used against defenses was so unbalancing it had to be specifically nerfed.

 

So why the exemption for FW?

[casualplayer]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Anyone made the Speed Zone/Find Weakness guy yet for pure cheesy goodness? Reduce your defenses to nil then paste you when you're at 0 DCV. Kill Durak with a pocketknife, it's fun!

 

I stand on my opinion that percentile reduction and increase have no place in a scalar/threshold game system. One way or the other, but the two do not play nice with each other.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

In every supers level game it was allowed, it ended up being a game-breaker.

 

There are far too many ways to exploit it. Far too many.

 

Either by itself or in combination, it always ended up forcing the GM to fudge like crazy to keep the game interesting. Better IMO to just not allow it in the first place.

Ah, there we go!

 

I assume it's the multiple uses, getting defs down to x1/8 and so on? Was this primarily when coupled with high SPDs?

[CraterMaker]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I have had a couple of problem spots with players and their Find Weakness before, mostly from being torn between a character having his cool moments and trying to keep it from being a gamewinning power ALL the time..

 

Finally, I just rejected the characters with an abnormally high Find Weakness roll..(18- and higher) eventually , when it was taken it was mainly to damage inanimate objects and such, usually at a 12- to 14- level.

 

I've stated before I dislike it - it doesn't Grok for me - but I didn't dislike it untill I had to do the whole balancing act in my games. AP and Drains/Suppresses are more evocative of how I picture something like that to work. Your mileage, of course, varies.

 

-CraterMaker

[BNakagawa]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Ah, there we go!

 

I assume it's the multiple uses, getting defs down to x1/8 and so on? Was this primarily when coupled with high SPDs?

 

The fundamental reason why it's so broken at the superhero level is that it's far to easy to exploit.

 

All you need is invisibility and you can FW unmolested for as long as it takes to cut people's defenses to garbage and then you can smear them all over the place. Or shrinking. Or shapeshifting or whatever else you use to sit there and observe your prey without them knowing about it. Far too many options.

 

Also, it's unreasonably powerful when stacked with adjustment powers. Sure, your GM is going to limit your active point attack if you also have FW. But what about your buddy who has an aid? Let's see - I COULD aid the guy who's going against the villains full defense, or maybe I should aid the guy who hits 1/4 his defenses...

 

No brainer.

 

stack FW with mondo range mod PSLs for extra fun.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Imagine a superhero game where everyone used EB or STR and nobody had any resistant defenses. Lots of dice being thrown and stuff being broken, in essence, a standard 4 color superhero game.

 

Add one guy with a multipower full of RKAs.

 

Everything changes. You have to rewrite everything and everybody.

 

FW is kind of like that. I don't think it's important enough to motivate me to rewrite everything for the benefit of one person. I'd prefer to run a game without it. If it's your gimmick, just buy a stacked attack with RSR analyze defenses or somesuch.

[Markdoc]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Ah, there we go!

 

I assume it's the multiple uses, getting defs down to x1/8 and so on? Was this primarily when coupled with high SPDs?

 

Yep - as I noted, I have seen it cause real problems too. Not frequently enough for me to ban it, but enough that I look REEEEEAL close at any PC build that has it. The problem is, as you state, reducing defences to 1/8th or less. That's compounded when the attack being used is a killing attack - you give up a few phases, during which you are on the offensive, but after that, every attack does significant body - icky!

 

cheers, Mark

[Willpower]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

If this is the case' date=' Treb, why not dump an Xd6 HA AP Req. "Relevant Roll" into her MP? You could define the roll as INT, PER, or Tactics without stretching the point, I think. Lack of Weakness could be applied as a penalty to the roll depending on how the chosen roll description and the FX of the LoW work together. If, however, you want the FW for all of your multipower slots, then you could still scale a naked advantage with relevant roll to the MP.[/quote']

 

The basic problem with replacing Find Weakness thusly is that FW is meant for a skilled character, that does not do much in the way of damage, to be able to compete with others that do. This being the case, if the character still can't do damage with the targets defense halved, then they can halve it again with FW. Doing it with a RSR AP advantage can only ever half the defenses and no more.

 

I think FW is fine the way it is. It is open to abuse, but that is what the GM is for, to help stop such abuse. If two players come at you looking for you to approve Find Weakness for their respective characters; one with a luck based character that has minor martial arts and 20 strength and another with a 65 Strength Brick, you approve the luck based Martial Artist and tell the brick to hit the gym. This is why Find Weakness has the warning sign on it.

 

JMHO though.

[Outsider]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I've used Find Weakness (on NPCs) and hit locations before in a Fantasy Hero campaign. The Find Weakness was limited to one halving, and to finding weakness only in worn armor, or the natural defenses of creatures the character was highly familiar with. And even then it only worked on aimed shots. The rationale was that the character was aiming specifically for the weak spots in a suit of armor. The arm pits, the elbows/knees, the breathing holes in the visor, etc. Given that Quality armors had the option of adding Lack of Weakness and that he generally was only halving 8-9 DEF armors, it really wasnt that unbalancing.

 

Generally, though, I've not really liked Find Weakness as a power. Every time I've seen a player use it, it has generally been a means to 'end around' campaign DC limits. If i set a 60 active point limit, the Find Weakness character comes in with a 60 active point attack AND Find Weakness on top of it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Martial artist type with FW was my firsat 'OMG' moment with the (then) skill.

 

Find weakness (half phase) and dodge, if he knows his SPD is not enough to get in two actions before the opponent or FW/FW then FW/hit at 1/8th defence, assuming all the rolls were made: almost no downside and often an instant KO.

 

As to Insider's point about what the power is 'meant for' - i.e. skilled characters with low damage, two problems:

 

1. If the roll ISN'T made the character isuseless, so it is an all or nothing deal often, which is (cardinal sin) boring, and

 

2. You can build that other ways i.e. armour piercing - just making the sfx that you 'spot weaknesses in the defences or fighting style of an opponent, or extra damage or drain defecnes or whatever. FW is not necessary to build that kind of character. Halving the defence is enough for almost anyone: in a 12DC game defences are unlikely to be in excess of 30 def and a single halving of defences will allow even a 6-8 DC attack (and few 'skilled characters' will have less than an 8d6 attack somewhere, that's just 20 STR and offensive strike) to damage.

[Willpower]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

1. If the roll ISN'T made the character is useless, so it is an all or nothing deal often, which is (cardinal sin) boring, and

 

Not necessarily. You are thinking somewhat limitedly, and pigeonholing the use of FW. I agree, that if that is the SOLE use for it, then it can be that way, and characters built with FW that is usable for every power they have, so that ALL of their powers are too low without it, then yes you are right. However, At base level FW is not usable with every attack. So characters can have a attack they use FW with, which can be their signature move, and if it fails, then resort to other attacks. Also, what is boring to you, is not boring to all. Some prefer a challenge, and ways to have their character have to think. The all or nothing deal can be said about other types of characters besides FW afterall. A human torch type, or a fire based wizard in Fantasy Hero afterall, would be virtually useless against something with a huge resistance to fire. Does that mean those type of characters are also a (cardinal sin) Plus, even if you cannot affect one baddy, it is a team game, and there are team challenges. If you cannot fight one baddy, fight another. Or save some people. We are heroes right. Some people prefer to use their head. Hell, in my current game, one character is a touch telepath. Put her in a fight with people who can fly, or robots not affected by mental powers and she is useless, but the player never complains. He builds his characters with flaws like this for a reason, and she always tries to pitch in, even if she has to wait until a Viper agent goes down and pick up his gun.

[Willpower]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Generally, though, I've not really liked Find Weakness as a power. Every time I've seen a player use it, it has generally been a means to 'end around' campaign DC limits. If i set a 60 active point limit, the Find Weakness character comes in with a 60 active point attack AND Find Weakness on top of it.

 

Say No.

 

Your the GM. I limit it as I limit AP attacks. In my campaigns I go by a DC limit, instead of the active point limit, with a +1/4 advantage being equivilent to 1d6. It helps make attacks with advantages more worthwhile that the Active Point Limit. So instead of being limited to 6D6 Area attack (big woop) you can have 8D6. 8D6 isn't much more, but it is at least a feasible attack then, as opposed to 6D6, which a normal holding a garbage can lid can resist. So in my campaigns with 12DC limit, AP attacks are limited to 10d6. Same for FW, though because of the sliding scale I may cut it a dice or so at times depending on the skill roll level involved. That makes it around the same power level. In exchange for being able to further reduce the defense (which becomes less and less useful), AP works all the time. It is nearly an even trade, and gives flavor to the character with FW. (Since they have to take a round to work it, and can fail.) There is a defense for both, and it makes it where someone with a high hardened defense isn't invulnerable. I actually find that the defenses come into the game roughly with the same frequency. LOW edging Hardened out a little only because it is cheaper, as Hardened is more useful.

[Outsider]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I say no, then the player gets all cranky. I've had one decide to pack it in and not play at all largely over the FW issue. You'll probably say I was better off without him anyway, if that was how he was, but it still left us short a player in a place where players were not a dime a dozen.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I say no' date=' then the player gets all cranky. I've had one decide to pack it in and not play at all largely over the FW issue. You'll probably say I was better off without him anyway, if that was how he was, but it still left us short a player in a place where players were not a dime a dozen.[/quote']

Been there.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

*His defenses do not change! they are still 14 PD of which 10 points are resistant due to Damage Resistance?

5ER' date=' p.174: "The target's Normal Defenses (PD or ED, [b']including Damage Resistance[/b])."

 

So Damage Resistance counts as Normal Defenses for the purpose of Find Weakness. In the example, successfully targeting Normal Defenses would leave the target with 7 PD / 5 rPD, sucessfully targeting Resistant Defenses would have no effect.

 

The confusion arises with the double use of 'Normal' and 'Resistant.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Shrug' date=' I still come back to a lack of any reported play problems. For those who have proactively stopped it, it clearly doesn't fit something for them, but otherwise as Lucius wrote there doesn't seem to be a purported actual break ni play. [/quote']

 

It can certainly be abused. Many powers and power combo's can. The most devestating example I've seen was the old Deathstroke module, which had agents with FW. Since they initial scene gave them a few phases to prepare, they did amazing damage to the PC's when they were ready to go.

 

I have had a couple of problem spots with players and their Find Weakness before, mostly from being torn between a character having his cool moments and trying to keep it from being a gamewinning power ALL the time..

 

Finally, I just rejected the characters with an abnormally high Find Weakness roll..(18- and higher) eventually , when it was taken it was mainly to damage inanimate objects and such, usually at a 12- to 14- level.

 

So 18- FW...a 45 point offensive power tacked on to, say, a 12 DC attack...is too powerful when everyone else has the same DC's and attacks against full defenses. Why would that be a surprise to anyone? An outrageously high roll (and that seems outrageous to me) will certainly cause problems. The chatacter overall has to be balanced. This is just one more example of "I used caps to substitute for judgement and it blew up on me".As a gut feel, if you have FW at 18- (45 points), your attack better be in the 3d6 range (15 points) leaving you with the same total "offense points" as a 60 STR Brick.

 

Yep - as I noted' date=' I have seen it cause real problems too. Not frequently enough for me to ban it, but enough that I look REEEEEAL close at any PC build that has it. The problem is, as you state, reducing defences to 1/8th or less. That's compounded when the attack being used is a killing attack - you give up a few phases, during which you are on the offensive, but after that, every attack does significant body - icky![/quote']

 

How many scenarios does the character get away with that before the opposition gets some sense and realizes that, in evey news clip, this guy stands back for the first part of the fight, then wades in doing huge damage? That character should then be the target of choice - Flash him first; pile on and co-ordinate against him; don't give him time for half a dozen FW attempts. And when he moves to attack one target, a teammate interposes - he can only FW on one target each phase.

 

Sure, he can be Invisible, Shrunken, Desolid, what have you - is that somehow a bigger problem than Mentalist Sniper Syndrome? It can be dealt with the same way. Simplest approach - toss it out to the group. Do we think 18- FW on a campaign stanrard attack is acceptable? if it is, that applies to PC's and NPC's alike.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

I say no' date=' then the player gets all cranky. I've had one decide to pack it in and not play at all largely over the FW issue. You'll probably say I was better off without him anyway, if that was how he was, but it still left us short a player in a place where players were not a dime a dozen.[/quote']

 

My sense is such a player would, regardless of available constructs, have come down to the choice of "allow munchkin overpowered character" or "lose a player". Players may not be a dime a dozen, but I wouldn't count a guy creating a negative play experience as a good solution to that problem.

[CraterMaker]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

 

 

So 18- FW...a 45 point offensive power tacked on to, say, a 12 DC attack...is too powerful when everyone else has the same DC's and attacks against full defenses. Why would that be a surprise to anyone? An outrageously high roll (and that seems outrageous to me) will certainly cause problems. The chatacter overall has to be balanced. This is just one more example of "I used caps to substitute for judgement and it blew up on me".As a gut feel, if you have FW at 18- (45 points), your attack better be in the 3d6 range (15 points) leaving you with the same total "offense points" as a 60 STR Brick.

 

 

Yeeeaah.. Thanks for pointing out where I went wrong.

 

 

-CraterMaker

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Not necessarily. You are thinking somewhat limitedly' date=' and pigeonholing the use of FW. I agree, that if that is the SOLE use for it, then it can be that way, and characters built with FW that is usable for every power they have, so that ALL of their powers are too low without it, then yes you are right. However, At base level FW is not usable with every attack. So characters can have a attack they use FW with, which can be their signature move, and if it fails, then resort to other attacks. Also, what is boring to you, is not boring to all. Some prefer a challenge, and ways to have their character have to think. The all or nothing deal can be said about other types of characters besides FW afterall. A human torch type, or a fire based wizard in Fantasy Hero afterall, would be virtually useless against something with a huge resistance to fire. Does that mean those type of characters are also a (cardinal sin) Plus, even if you cannot affect one baddy, it is a team game, and there are team challenges. If you cannot fight one baddy, fight another. Or save some people. We are heroes right. Some people prefer to use their head. Hell, in my current game, one character is a touch telepath. Put her in a fight with people who can fly, or robots not affected by mental powers and she is useless, but the player never complains. He builds his characters with flaws like this for a reason, and she always tries to pitch in, even if she has to wait until a Viper agent goes down and pick up his gun.[/quote']

 

 

With respect it is going to be a rare player indeed who does not have his FW loaded onto his best attack, so these 'other atatcks' are likely to be even less use: it is a power for one trick ponies. Yes you can turn your attention to others if you are not just fighting the end of level boss, and if you are then you either take him down easy (if the GM hasn't started designing all his EOLBs with lack of weakness...which is a bit daft) or you are hopeless. There may well not even be any bystanders to impress. It is not a build with a flaw, it is a flaw made into a build.

 

Even when you are fighting a team and you can swap opponents if the roll went badly, so can they, and we wind up with a really very silly situation 'All change'. Now givent hat Hero imposes no penalty for breaking off int eh middle of combat to engage another opponent, that just bursts the suspension of disbelief bubble for me.

 

Now Hugh makes some good points about nerfing FW. Cool and pretty easy. 'Everyone has a trenchcoat on', or 'That one, get him first!' But that is the point to a large extent: if the villains always smack The Exploiter on phase 12, the game gets daft and The Exploiter's player gets hacked off.

 

If there is a power that requires this kind of nerfing on a regular basis there is something wrong with it.

 

As to 'total points = attack+ FW' (or however you want to do it)...well, first off the book makes no such suggestion, although it is of course sensible. mind you you can still build a 10d6 Eb with FW in a60 AP game and be mighty effective a good proportion of the time, so I don't think it balances well.

 

Finally, and I'll keep coming back to this, IT MAKES NO SENSE. it senses stuff you can't sense, it works against illogical categories (normal/resistant) irrespective of sfx or anything else for that matetr and even the 'carry over ' rules (i.e. it doesn't) make little sense: if you've found a weakness in Defender's armour today, unless he re-built it overnight, it'll still be there tomorrow, for pity's sake.

 

Even the idea that it only works with (as a base) a single attack is a bit crazy to me as FW is NOT part of the attack itself, unless you build it that way, so virtually every build I have seen makes no real sense. So you ccan find weakness with guns, but not find the same weakness with, say a knife? So you can sense a weakness in that wall but not mark it in chalk for the team brick to hit?*

 

I can balance everything else in-game. I just can't make it make sense without writing in the book in crayon.

 

 

*You CAN of course build approprtiately synergetic FW/attack combos: the sonic blast the character can tune to a resonant frequency, for example, but like I said almost every build I've seen just fails to address the issue of HOW it works, and just buys it for point efficiency.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

As to 'total points = attack+ FW' (or however you want to do it)...well' date=' first off the book makes no such suggestion, although it is of course sensible. mind you you can still build a 10d6 Eb with FW in a60 AP game and be mighty effective a good proportion of the time, so I don't think it balances well.[/quote']

 

That same 60 AP game can survive an 8d6 AP energy blast, can't it? This also halves the target's defenses but, of course, is doing less dice against those halved defenses.

 

FW means the character loses the first attack to reduce one target's defenses by half, on an 11- roll (62.5%). AP does not require this expenditure of time, and it doesn't require the attacker to choose which target's defenses will be halved. It also works every time. FW's offsetting advantage is a lower cost, and the ability to halve again - also with more time, and more chance of failure.

 

AP is stopped by hardened defenses, and FW is fairly easily nerfed with LoW, so the defense against them seems balanced.

 

So why is FW vilified when no one's worried about AP attacks?

[Markdoc]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

IHow many scenarios does the character get away with that before the opposition gets some sense and realizes that, in evey news clip, this guy stands back for the first part of the fight, then wades in doing huge damage? That character should then be the target of choice - Flash him first; pile on and co-ordinate against him; don't give him time for half a dozen FW attempts. And when he moves to attack one target, a teammate interposes - he can only FW on one target each phase.

 

Sure, he can be Invisible, Shrunken, Desolid, what have you - is that somehow a bigger problem than Mentalist Sniper Syndrome? It can be dealt with the same way. Simplest approach - toss it out to the group. Do we think 18- FW on a campaign stanrard attack is acceptable? if it is, that applies to PC's and NPC's alike.

 

Sure - but any time someone says - "OK, use GM's fiat to dogpile the character", then to me, that's saying "Yeah, we got a problem here".

 

Which was the point.

 

Now in my experience the problem is not really pervasive - as I said I haven't banned FW. I just scrutinise any appearance of it really carefully.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

Sure - but any time someone says - "OK' date=' use GM's fiat to dogpile the character", then to me, that's saying "Yeah, we got a problem here".[/quote']

 

I've played in groups where any mentalist becomes the target of choice because no one in the group has any real resistance to mental powers. Some characters who would not be a problem against some opponents are devestating against others, simply due to the group mix.

 

FW is one of those "may be very dangerous against the right targets" powers. Do you let your team's Martial Artist fight the Flaming Pyromaniac, or does someone with better defenses or ranged attacks deal with that threat while the MA goes after someone who's a better match for his abilities? The same group should be looking to avoid pairing the high DEF, low DCV, no LoW Brock off against the FW opponent.

 

BTW, to me, it's not GM Fiat for the opponents to use the knowledge they ought logically to have. If you're planning a crime in Campaign City, and you don't plan any tactics against the Campaign City Crusaders when you're likely to run afoul of them, how bright are you, really? Not every opponent has the advantage of being able to get some intel on the PC's, but many do, and would logically use that opportunity.

 

Now, if your FW only gets used rarely, against the truly powerful opposition, it may not be so obvious from battles that hit the press, or get gossipped over in Stronghold. But if the Scarlet Skulker's standard tactic is to scuttle away and watch the fight for a turn or so, then take down the opposing brick with a single shot, that's probably going to get noticed.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

The fundamental reason why it's so broken at the superhero level is that it's far to easy to exploit.

 

All you need is invisibility and you can FW unmolested for as long as it takes to cut people's defenses to garbage and then you can smear them all over the place. Or shrinking. Or shapeshifting or whatever else you use to sit there and observe your prey without them knowing about it. Far too many options.

 

Also, it's unreasonably powerful when stacked with adjustment powers. Sure, your GM is going to limit your active point attack if you also have FW. But what about your buddy who has an aid? Let's see - I COULD aid the guy who's going against the villains full defense, or maybe I should aid the guy who hits 1/4 his defenses...

 

No brainer.

 

stack FW with mondo range mod PSLs for extra fun.

I've had people play it reasonably, but I can understand what you're saying. It has to be played in a certain spirit.

[Markdoc]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

So why is FW vilified when no one's worried about AP attacks?

 

For the simple reasons that:

1) AP is figured into active cost, so it's easy to see if it is out of line. You can do the same with FW, but it's not so obvious.

2) it can't drop someone's defences from 40 to (say) 5. An 8d6 AP attack will get some stun through on a 40DEF character, but isn't going to take them down very fast. An 8d6 attack with a good find weakness roll is likely going to put them in hospital in a few hits.

3) it works in a way that no other power or modifier does.

 

Having said that, I don't think FW is being vilified in this thread. It can be unbalancing, but I simply treat it as having a big stop sign next to it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Find Weakness mispriced?

 

That same 60 AP game can survive an 8d6 AP energy blast, can't it? This also halves the target's defenses but, of course, is doing less dice against those halved defenses.

 

FW means the character loses the first attack to reduce one target's defenses by half, on an 11- roll (62.5%). AP does not require this expenditure of time, and it doesn't require the attacker to choose which target's defenses will be halved. It also works every time. FW's offsetting advantage is a lower cost, and the ability to halve again - also with more time, and more chance of failure.

 

AP is stopped by hardened defenses, and FW is fairly easily nerfed with LoW, so the defense against them seems balanced.

 

So why is FW vilified when no one's worried about AP attacks?

 

Not sure a character loses their first attack: FW is a half phase non-attack action. That mans you can do it twice in a phase or FW and then attack in a phase.

 

However, if all we are arguing about is utility and cost then it is just how you apply that looking glass or stop sign. We are not. It is certainly adiscussion point but it is not my central theme. Here is the challenge, a simple one, I’d have thought: give me a sfx justification for find weakness that actually makes sense for the attack or attacks it relates to, using the power presented in the rules. Go on.

 

Now before we go off on that one, I can think of 'some sort of mystical stuff that, y'know, sometimes works and sometimes doesn't', or possibly '...er...chi?', but that is rubbish. It is avoiding sfx not presenting them, and does not fit in with what most advocates seem to see as its niche: the skilled type with the low DC attacks. I'm not suggesting you have to limit your self to that, just that the solution should actually be coherent and not 'it just does'.