Algernon Files 2.0 previews

[buzz]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

I just figure that in the future' date=' the manufacturing plants all crank out their flooring pieces in 5-foot squares.[/quote']

"Welcome to the Hasbro Imperium, citizen!"

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

I dont even play M&M (sorry, but one system at a time is enough for me, thanks), but I think this looks great. I really like the 'magic sink' Sabbath -- and Magog is a horror. He'd be a great opponent for anyone who thinks the Visigoth and Grond just aren't a challenge.

[buzz]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

I dont even play M&M...

It's for HERO, too.

[mattingly]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

There are two sets of previews, side by side. You want to click on the [HERO] links.

[Twilight]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

Are there any conversions rules for M&M to HERO? I haven't been able to find any of the HERO books for Mutants & Masterminds so I finally broke down and bought the M&M version as well as the rules and Freedom City. I do not regret it, but some conversion rules would be nice if anybody has any.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

I've seen some guidelines once, but frankly, they sucked. They attempted to balance the results with standard Champions characters too much. And this was for 1e.

[MitchellS]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

There are several different conversion systems on the M&M boards. M&M doesn't need the granulation that Hero has though so you can easily just fake it. And I disagree with Metaphysician's opinion because the only way to do a true conversion is to the CU standard. Otherwise you're converting nothing that makes sense to anyone but you.

 

This thread http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=17895 has some of Aaron's conversion guidelines [he's the writer of the various Algernon books].

[Metaphysician]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

The problem is, the conversion standard I saw ignored that fact that a PL10 150 point M&M character is a hell of alot higher end a super than a 350 point Champions character.

[MitchellS]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

The problem is' date=' the conversion standard I saw ignored that fact that a PL10 150 point M&M character is a hell of alot higher end a super than a 350 point Champions character.[/quote']

I've seen many different arguments on this. My own feeling, and some others, is that 350 points is around PL 8 in M&M [but it really depends on how those points are spent]. PL 10 characters in M&M have a vastness of power which really isn't seen in most Champions characters [and that includes some 1,000 point characters I've seen]. Things like the ability to fly or run 5000+ mph, or teleport around the world [or even galaxy] are fairly common in M&M but incredibly rare in Champions.

 

The damage and defense systems are fairly close between the two games with only a slight edge going to M&M, though M&M's damage scales better so you can use a wider range of attack types [it's not uncommon to see Hawkeye types with Blast 5 arrows fighting along side Ironman types with Blast 12 repulsors and not feeling useless, whereas a 5d6 EB in HERO would be almost completely useless].

 

I think it's the difference in scale which makes it difficult to convert. Bowman from the Freedom League is an archer with Blast 5, Trip 5, Stun 3 arrows. Using straight conversion he's going to have 4-6d6 attacks in Champions. Since 8d6 is about the useful minimum all the low-end characters in M&M need to be adjusted up and all the high end characters need to be adjusted down so that everyone falls into that normal 9-12d6 Champions range.

[OddHat]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

normal 9-12d6 Champions range.

 

Character creation guidelines for beginning CU Standard Heroes are not a good guide for conversions. Much better to look at Champions Worldwide, CKC, and other collections of published characters and decide exactly where a converted character fits in the CUs power scale. The range is actually closer to 6-30d6, not counting advantages. Even then, you're better off just going from concept then trying for a mechanics based conversion.

[buzz]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

Are there any conversions rules for M&M to HERO? I haven't been able to find any of the HERO books for Mutants & Masterminds so I finally broke down and bought the M&M version as well as the rules and Freedom City. I do not regret it' date=' but some conversion rules would be nice if anybody has any.[/quote']

I've attached Kenson's original HERO 4th writeups for a bunch of Freedom City characters. The setting was originally designed for HERO.

[MitchellS]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

Character creation guidelines for beginning CU Standard Heroes are not a good guide for conversions. Much better to look at Champions Worldwide' date=' CKC, and other collections of published characters and decide exactly where a converted character fits in the CUs power scale. The range is actually closer to 6-30d6, not counting advantages. Even then, you're better off just going from concept then trying for a mechanics based conversion.[/quote']

I was referring to the standards used for starting level characters being in the 9-12d6 range. Bowman is a starting level M&M character who would do the equivalent damage of around 5d6 in Champions. That wouldn't work in Champions; you'd need to up him to at least 8d6 and it's a very good bet his multipower would be in the 45-60 point range. So any straight-line conversion system just doesn't work. That's why I said "fake it" above.

[OddHat]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

I was referring to the standards used for starting level characters being in the 9-12d6 range. Bowman is a starting level M&M character who would do the equivalent damage of around 5d6 in Champions. That wouldn't work in Champions; you'd need to up him to at least 8d6 and it's a very good bet his multipower would be in the 45-60 point range. So any straight-line conversion system just doesn't work. That's why I said "fake it" above.

 

Fair enough. I agree that a straight line conversion is not likely to work well between the two systems.

[Twilight]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

Which is why I tried to find the HERO versions of the M&M villain books, which has proven quite difficult. Algernon Files 2: Fires of War has nearly been impossible for the gaming store I usually go to to find so far and apparently the Algernon Files 2.0 for HERO isn't out yet.

[MitchellS]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

You can order the pdf version of Fire of War from rpgnow.com. BlackWyrm Games might have some print versions which you can order directly from them.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

These previews reinforce the impression that I got reading The Fires of War: these books largely follow the conventions and archetypes of mainstream four-color comics, predominantly Bronze Age with shadings of Silver to Iron, much as the Champions Universe does. This works very well for me, because that's my preferred flavor of supers gaming, and my last campaign was based on the CU. These characters would be easy to insert into any similar game world with minimal revision.

 

For example, I will likely use Magog and his people, the Sikkai, as warriors in the army of Istvatha V'han, and Magog left behind on Earth after one of her invasion attempts. The Lord of Mirrors sounds like a natural as a King of Edom, particularly since its kindred, the Ra'Zha'Keth, are inspired by the same Lovecraftian entities as inspired the Kings. For that matter the RZK's primordial enemies, the Akathii, fill almost the identical role in the Algernon Files world as the Progenitors do in the CU.

 

I expect many other AF characters to fit my needs just as easily.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

I've seen many different arguments on this. My own feeling' date=' and some others, is that 350 points is around PL 8 in M&M [but it really depends on how those points are spent']. PL 10 characters in M&M have a vastness of power which really isn't seen in most Champions characters [and that includes some 1,000 point characters I've seen]. Things like the ability to fly or run 5000+ mph, or teleport around the world [or even galaxy] are fairly common in M&M but incredibly rare in Champions.

 

The damage and defense systems are fairly close between the two games with only a slight edge going to M&M, though M&M's damage scales better so you can use a wider range of attack types [it's not uncommon to see Hawkeye types with Blast 5 arrows fighting along side Ironman types with Blast 12 repulsors and not feeling useless, whereas a 5d6 EB in HERO would be almost completely useless].

 

I think it's the difference in scale which makes it difficult to convert. Bowman from the Freedom League is an archer with Blast 5, Trip 5, Stun 3 arrows. Using straight conversion he's going to have 4-6d6 attacks in Champions. Since 8d6 is about the useful minimum all the low-end characters in M&M need to be adjusted up and all the high end characters need to be adjusted down so that everyone falls into that normal 9-12d6 Champions range.

 

Part of it is that M&M distinguishes between killing and nonkilling attack in a different way than Hero. Partly, however, I think your significantly underestimating what a +5 attack is. +5 is, IIRC, the value for things like heavy machine guns and extreme large caliber rifles. IOW, about 8-9 DC. Likewise, +12 attack is fully equal to a tank gun.

 

My rule of thumb is, multiply the damage bonus by 1.5, and that gives you the Hero DCs of the attack.

[MitchellS]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

Part of it is that M&M distinguishes between killing and nonkilling attack in a different way than Hero. Partly, however, I think your significantly underestimating what a +5 attack is. +5 is, IIRC, the value for things like heavy machine guns and extreme large caliber rifles. IOW, about 8-9 DC. Likewise, +12 attack is fully equal to a tank gun.

 

My rule of thumb is, multiply the damage bonus by 1.5, and that gives you the Hero DCs of the attack.

I do agree the way killing attacks are handled is different [there's no stun lotto in M&M ]. Unfortunately weapon damage comparisons aren't always possible in the way. +5 damage in M&M is equal to an assault rifle. That's about 6 DC in Hero [based on the charts in FREd]. A tank does +10 damage in M&M [working under a very different belief than Champions that supers are supposed to be able to beat a tank]. A space battleship only does +15 damage with it's photon torpedo.

 

Using your damage system even the teen heroes in Claremont Academy would be doing 12-15d6. My general rule is +5 or less add +3 DC. 6-12 add +2 DC. 13+ add +1 DC.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

Thats ignoring autofire for the assault rifle. IIRC, M&M doesn't really have an equivalent mechanic, it just ups the damage. So, if you convert a 2d6 RKA with +1/2 autofire into DC equivalent, you get. . . 9 DC.

 

And as far the Claremonte Academy students being in the 12-15 DC range? I consider that a feature, not a bug. The Freedom Force U is just generally more buff ( and the teen heroes of the CU are especially weak ).

[MitchellS]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

I don't include extras and advantages because they're not important to the whole. What matters is the amount of damage produced. Bowman's arrow does +5 damage. That's the same amount of damage an assault rifle would do in single shot mode. Since Bowman's arrows aren't autofire I'm not going to add in an advantage it doesn't have [M&M's assault rifle does have autofire].

 

As far as the students, we've had the "you like uber-powerful campaigns" discussion too many times before to rehash it now. While there's definitely a Marvel/DC thing going on [Hero being Marvel power level and M&M being DC] I don't believe M&M's teens are intentionally twice as powerful as Champions'.

[MitchellS]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

Just as an interesting snippet, Magog can do a maximum of +22 Damage in M&M and a maximum of 22d6 in Champions [both without pushing], so it would seem Dave is converting over 1 for 1.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

I've never said Blackwyrm was perfect.

[OddHat]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

Just as an interesting snippet' date=' Magog can do a maximum of +22 Damage in M&M and a maximum of 22d6 in Champions [both without pushing'], so it would seem Dave is converting over 1 for 1.

 

When I spoke with Dave on the subject FtF, he said that he went with reasoning based on the character's role rather than following a strict conversion method.

[MitchellS]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

It might just be a happy coincidence then.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Algernon Files 2.0 previews

 

Is the HERO version of this out? I picked up the M&M 2 version and have enjoyed reading it immensely.

 

Am I the only one who thinks Hell's Belles would be great PCs? I like the idea of a supers campaign where the characters are just trying to do what they do, not setting out to be either heroic of villainous but having things come to them that cause them to act like one or the other at various times.

 

Incidentally, if you pierce someone's jugular vein with fangs, regardless of whether or not you actually drink anything, is there any way to save the victim from death by exsanguination? If not, and if you're NOT going to drink, what do you DO with all that blood?