Grond, underpowered pansy?

[Vestnik]

While I was in the States, I picked up a copy of the Ultimate Brick, and finally got a look at Grond's character sheet. Now the Big G is supposed to be the Hulk of the CU, as I understand things, well-nigh unstoppable, a thing of terror and so forth.

 

But his stats seem pretty underwhelming for this role. True he would mop the floor with most 350-point Bricks, but it seems any reasonaly powerful fire-based character or mentalist would wipe him out. A paltry 2 DEF 2 BODY Mental Paralysis would take Grond out of the fight. Doesn't seem appropriate for someone touted as a Major Supervillian Threat. With his Susceptibility to Fire, a bunch of GIs with flamethrowers could take him out.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Lots of folks around here would agree with you, myself included. Grond isn't near the top level of published Champions Universe bricks.

 

A few people have mentioned their hope that Grond will be experience a "radiation accident" upgrade in the upcoming CU update book.

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

I am sure that many people here have whupped Grond's overrated butt in their games. Please tell me your Grond-whupping stories.

 

The guy is turning into the epitome of overrated characters in my mind.

[Balabanto]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

THe problem is that if you obey the rules to the letter, Grond is incredibly dangerous. Let's take a look at Grond's STR 90. Assuming the PC's don't knock him out on phase 12, Grond Punches a Skyscraper.

 

Joe Skyscraper has standard concrete walls, for a DEF of 7 and a BODY of 5. So that means that Grond has just punched a 64 Hex hole in that building.

 

Now, a city block in New York City is 1/18 of a mile, or about 32 hexes.

 

So, can your superheroes stop a falling skyscraper? Yeah, that's right, a falling Skyscraper. This weighs more than any superhero in your game can probably lift, the building is FILLED WITH PEOPLE, and when it hits, well, the shockwave will produce even more damage.

 

So think twice about Grond. Because the danger doesn't always come from what happens if he hits a character.

[Vestnik]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

THe problem is that if you obey the rules to the letter, Grond is incredibly dangerous. Let's take a look at Grond's STR 90. Assuming the PC's don't knock him out on phase 12, Grond Punches a Skyscraper.

 

Joe Skyscraper has standard concrete walls, for a DEF of 7 and a BODY of 5. So that means that Grond has just punched a 64 Hex hole in that building.

 

Now, a city block in New York City is 1/18 of a mile, or about 32 hexes.

 

So, can your superheroes stop a falling skyscraper? Yeah, that's right, a falling Skyscraper. This weighs more than any superhero in your game can probably lift, the building is FILLED WITH PEOPLE, and when it hits, well, the shockwave will produce even more damage.

 

So think twice about Grond. Because the danger doesn't always come from what happens if he hits a character.

 

What if Grond is in a desert?

 

I want raw power with my Hulk clones, dammit!

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

What if Grond is in a desert?

You mean like pie? What kind of twisted campaign are you running where you're fighting Grond in a pie?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

What if Grond is in a desert?

 

I want raw power with my Hulk clones, dammit!

 

The Flying Brick will still beat him.

 

See the Justice League Animated "Defenders" tribute episode pitting Superman, Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl vs. Solomon Grundy (Hulk), Doctor Fate (Strange) and Aquaman (Namor). Fate sends Superman and Grundy to the desert where Grundy eventually grabs Supes and Supes decides to pile drive him into the ground... end of fight.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

The Flying Brick will still beat him.

 

See the Justice League Animated "Defenders" tribute episode pitting Superman, Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl vs. Solomon Grundy (Hulk), Doctor Fate (Strange) and Aquaman (Namor). Fate sends Superman and Grundy to the desert where Grundy eventually grabs Supes and Supes decides to pile drive him into the ground... end of fight.

Watched that again recently. God but I do love the animated Grundy!

[Corven_Ren]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Personally, I like Grond, so much so that I let Kriby play him in a PBEM set in the future. I have never had more fun GMing a campaign than that one. Here is the background info Kirby came up with for him to get him into the campaign.

 

Background/History: Grond is a name that in it's time brought fear and, for those who knew his sad story, pity to the minds of people. Before the terrible war that struck the world Grond was captured during a battle with Primus and the American Avenger. The Avenger was one of those who pitied Grond. When the call went out he used his contacts to obtain permision to put Grond in suspended animation. He did so in a location know only to him, in hopes that one day a cure may be found for him. Years went by and Grond was all but forgotten. 350 years later Grond was found by a group of Enforcers, after a search through the military historical archives they discovered his identity and quickly decided to try and use him as a pawn. Grond awoke from his long slumber to find himself strapped to a experimentation table with all sorts of wires attached to him. A man in a lab coat came over and began speaking to him. Grond did not fully understand what he was being told, but his old memories of the experiment that made him the way he was surfaced and he got angry. Grond managed to break the restraints and quickly pummeled the scientist into a bloody pulp. Several Enforcers flooded into the room but their weapons didn't even slow him down. Grond battled his way out of the lab and into the wastelands of what was once Washington D.C.. Unable to comprehend the changes to the world, Grond moved constantly and eventually managed to make his way to New Los Angeles. It was there he managed to find some acceptance. Grond was hiding in a large building when he saw a group of people being chased by the Enforcers. He heard one of the 'metal men', as he refered to the Enforcers, yell "Freeze or you will die, Rebel". Grond suddenly remebered how these same type of men had tried to hurt him and he smashed through the crumbling wall. The Enforcers were caught off guard and were quickly dispatched. Grond turned toward the group and began to walk away. The youngest, a little girl who was about 8, came over and tocuhed Grond's hand. "Thank you for saving us, friend."

Grond was confused. He remebered what friend meant. He looked towards the others who were all nodding and smiling at him. Grond knelt beside the small girl and gently stroked her hair with his massive hand.

"Grond friend?" He asked.

"Yes," the little girl replied "I am you friend, my name is Hope."

Grond smiled and said, "Grond and Hope friends."

Hope nodded. "Would you like to come live with us and protect us from the Enforcers."

Grond nodded, "Grond smash metal men for Hope." He stood and accepted the small girl's hand and they walked off together. Since that day Grond has protected Hope and the underground resistance group that her parents were part of.

[clsage]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

.......Grond in a pie?

 

Mmmmmm. Tasty!

 

-Carl-

[GrooveD70]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

I kind of cheated. I changed the vulnerabilty. Oherwise he would have been a joke to my players. One of them is very fire-based.

[MitchellS]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

THe problem is that if you obey the rules to the letter, Grond is incredibly dangerous. Let's take a look at Grond's STR 90. Assuming the PC's don't knock him out on phase 12, Grond Punches a Skyscraper.

 

Joe Skyscraper has standard concrete walls, for a DEF of 7 and a BODY of 5. So that means that Grond has just punched a 64 Hex hole in that building.

 

Now, a city block in New York City is 1/18 of a mile, or about 32 hexes.

 

So, can your superheroes stop a falling skyscraper? Yeah, that's right, a falling Skyscraper. This weighs more than any superhero in your game can probably lift, the building is FILLED WITH PEOPLE, and when it hits, well, the shockwave will produce even more damage.

 

So think twice about Grond. Because the danger doesn't always come from what happens if he hits a character.

I'd suggest you check out the rules in Champions for bringing down buildings. Your estimation isn't even close.

[MitchellS]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

While I was in the States, I picked up a copy of the Ultimate Brick, and finally got a look at Grond's character sheet. Now the Big G is supposed to be the Hulk of the CU, as I understand things, well-nigh unstoppable, a thing of terror and so forth.

 

But his stats seem pretty underwhelming for this role. True he would mop the floor with most 350-point Bricks, but it seems any reasonaly powerful fire-based character or mentalist would wipe him out. A paltry 2 DEF 2 BODY Mental Paralysis would take Grond out of the fight. Doesn't seem appropriate for someone touted as a Major Supervillian Threat. With his Susceptibility to Fire, a bunch of GIs with flamethrowers could take him out.

Your estimation's correct: Grond's a wimp. Especially don't take him against a team that had a mentalist or a fire user [12d6 fire attack will do 54 stun to Grond on average. 2 hits and he's down].

[Enforcer84]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Your estimation's correct: Grond's a wimp. Especially don't take him against a team that had a mentalist or a fire user [12d6 fire attack will do 54 stun to Grond on average. 2 hits and he's down].

Grond's a wimp? Okay, so ALL your hero teams include at least one Pyrokinetic Mentalist?

[MitchellS]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

I've never run Grond in a combat against a team of 6 350 pointers where he ever made it to the end of turn 2. If the group had a fire-user or mentalist he wouldn't make it to phase 4. Just looking at the Champions:

 

Defender can do 60 stun to him after defenses in 1 turn.

Ironclad can do 10 stun to him...

Nighthawk can do 12 stun to him...

Sapphire can do 72 stun to him...

Witchcraft [assuming she doesn't use her ego attack] can do 4 stun to him...

 

That's a 5 person team which only needs to make Grond miss once or twice [or waste 2 of his 4 attacks on Ironcald] to take him down before he gets to the end of turn 1. So yeah, Grond is a wimp.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

okay, here's 459 pts, go make him better.

[MitchellS]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

okay' date=' here's 459 pts go make him better.[/quote']

The ultimate brick already did that, didn't it? : )

[Enforcer84]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Yup. At 459 pts. Yet you still complain.

Grond's got a speed point on everyone but Saphire and Nighthawk. He can throw Ironclad into the next county. How many strikes does it take him to take out Sapphire? (hint: one shot) Nighthawk? (hint: one shot) Withcraft? (Hint: One Shot), Ironclad? (2 shots), Defender? (Hint: one shot)...

 

So if he throws Ironclad he can, if he get's lucky, take the the other four out and still have an attack left that turn. He's an OCV monster but it could happen.

 

 

Sure he's not as resistant to Mental powers, so what? He's a distraction, not a master villain; a team should be able to take him out.

 

 

so, world beater? No. Wimp. Not if your a 350 pt brick expected to keep him occupied while the rest of your team deals with the "real villain".

[Enforcer84]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Granted, he'd have to be unbelievably lucky and fight lightyears ahead of his mental capacity to do the above so, yeah. But in a one on one fight, none of the Champions can take him, IMO; and most of the other heroes and villains of the CU would be hard pressed to. So with out an editorial statement of his invulnerability (if this were comics) or a 1000pt team buster write up, he's a wimp, I suppose.

[OddHat]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Why not use my Hulk tribute, Hate? She's cuter.

 

Personally I like or dislike characters based on concept and story, not write up. If I liked Grond enough to use him, I'd write him up in a form powerful enough to serve whatever purpose I had in mind in a given game. I don't much like his write up as anything but a starting point, but that goes for most published characters.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Why not use my Hulk tribute' date=' Hate? She's cuter.

 

Personally I like or dislike characters based on concept and story, not write up. If I liked Grond enough to use him, I'd write him up in a form powerful enough to serve whatever purpose I had in mind in a given game. I don't much like his write up as anything but a starting point, but that goes for most published characters.

Shhhh! If you say that they might think its a game or something!

[OddHat]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Shhhh! If you say that they might think its a game or something!

 

It's one of those heresies on the same level as "Comic book characters don't have character sheets, and writers do pretty much as they please; sometimes this makes for good stories, sometimes for bad."

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Grond's a wimp? Okay' date=' so ALL your hero teams include at least one Pyrokinetic Mentalist?[/quote']

It's a standard archetype. I can't wait until they put out The Ultimate Pyrokinetic Mentalist!

[Balabanto]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

What IF Grond is in a desert?

 

I haymaker the ground. I have a strength of 90. You've all acted. I'm hurting, but I have a 30 REC. I don't care.

 

Everyone who doesn't have life support or flight is now drowning under the sand. Perhaps one or two characters are still free to rescue people. By the time they've dug everyone out, I've punched three people for 18d6 of damage, assuming you can even find any of the buried people.

 

So it's phase 9, and maybe you have two active PCs, and everyone else without the right powers is pretty much obeying the drowning rules and not getting recoveries.

 

Have you seen what 18d6 actually does to most characters with 25 points of defenses? That's 38 stun and, god forbid they're in the air, an average of 11 inches of KB. So that's 46 stun if they hit something, like, I don't know, another PC.

 

NPCs can use characters as weapons too, and there aren't too many people who can casual STR their way out of a STR 90 grab.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Of course we can rewrite Grond to turn him into the terror that matches his reputation; I've done that for my own campaign. I guess what's bothersome is that so many of us feel we have to, to make him fit in with other major menaces of the Champions Universe as they're officially written up.

 

I remember the chapter in Champions Universe describing "Significant Superhuman Threats." They mention Dr. Destroyer, the Crowns of Krim, Takofanes, Gravitar, Mechanon, Firewing, Menton, Teleios, Istvatha V'han, Dr. Yin Wu, the Warlord... and Grond. Does anyone seriously believe that Grond as statted belongs in that company?

 

If Grond was at least the top brick on Champions Earth, that might be enough, but he isn't. Both Ripper (from the VIPER sourcebook) and Gargantua are stronger as well as faster, and Ripper in particular would manhandle Grond one-on-one.