OddHat Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Of course we can rewrite Grond to turn him into the terror that matches his reputation; I've done that for my own campaign. I guess what's bothersome is that so many of us feel we have to, to make him fit in with other major menaces of the Champions Universe as they're officially written up. I remember the chapter in Champions Universe describing "Significant Superhuman Threats." They mention Dr. Destroyer, the Crowns of Krim, Takofanes, Gravitar, Mechanon, Firewing, Menton, Teleios, Istvatha V'han, Dr. Yin Wu, the Warlord... and Grond. Does anyone seriously believe that Grond as statted belongs in that company? If Grond was at least the top brick on Champions Earth, that might be enough, but he isn't. Both Ripper (from the VIPER sourcebook) and Gargantua are stronger as well as faster, and Ripper in particular would manhandle Grond one-on-one. I can see that complaint, even if the easiest answer remains re-writing him to match the power level you want. As to Grond being overestimated by the list keepers, I kind of like that. After all, in the game world they can't read his sheet, and unlike most of the real top contenders Grond has no master plan and no reason to concentrate on going toe to toe with Heroes. Grond rampaging randomly through a city would seem pretty darn fearsome, and could easily kill thousands before a Hero team or heavy military unit showed up to chase him off. Sure, the rest of that gang could do more, but they usually wouldn't bother; that might leave Grond seeming like far more of a threat in the eyes of PRIMUS or UNTIL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Thinking about this, it just strikes me as odd that Grond is one of the few classic Champions villains that didn't receive a significant powerup in the transition to Fifth Edition. Dr. D, Mechanon, Firewing, Dark Seraph, and plenty of others got major upgrades, but Grond didn't keep pace. Ironically, in Fourth Edition and earlier Grond really was just about the strongest guy around, because STR 90 was treated as the maximum for characters who weren't kaiju-class. Fifth Edition has raised the bar significantly, though. The true Hulk-class menace in publication now is Fracas, from Galactic Champions. No humanoid creature in any current book can match his STR of 120, and his Defenses and other combat capabilities are equally impressive. He serves much the same function of near-mindless wrecking machine as Grond, and he's even amphibious like Grond. The last time I used Grond I just grafted most of Fracas's character sheet onto his. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Thinking about this' date=' it just strikes me as odd that Grond is one of the few classic Champions villains that didn't receive a significant powerup in the transition to Fifth Edition. Dr. D, Mechanon, Firewing, Dark Seraph, and plenty of others got major upgrades, but Grond didn't keep pace. Ironically, in Fourth Edition and earlier Grond really was just about the strongest guy around, because STR 90 was treated as the maximum for characters who weren't [i']kaiju[/i]-class. Fifth Edition has raised the bar significantly, though. The true Hulk-class menace in publication now is Fracas, from Galactic Champions. No humanoid creature in any current book can match his STR of 120, and his Defenses and other combat capabilities are equally impressive. He serves much the same function of near-mindless wrecking machine as Grond, and he's even amphibious like Grond. The last time I used Grond I just grafted most of Fracas's character sheet onto his. Fracas is a better name anyway. Anyway, I always got the impression that Grond was the 'throw the new characters/players at him, and if they try a straight slugfest they're hosed, now they have to learn teamwork' kind of thing. A team of 350 point tactically inept newbies probably would get mowed down by him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? My problems with Grond is that he fails in the two areas I consider most important to a brick: Strength and Defenses. He's not the "Strongest One There Is"! Gargantua, Ripper and Obelisk (and Rashindar on the Hero side) can all top him by at least 10 points. Mind you, most of them can only do it for a limited amount of time as opposed to Grond's steady 90, but still. As for defenses, no Hardened Defenses, no exotic defenses, no Damage Reduction, no Regen, no significant LS. All the tricks people use against your typical, stupid brick work on him. 40/30 is impressive for a game world that generally caps out around 25, but the other top tier bricks have some of those extras and similar levels of Defense. Mind you, with all that said I still probably wouldn't call him a pansy. He's just not quite at the level that the books build him up to IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Sure he's not as resistant to Mental powers' date=' so what? He's a distraction, not a master villain; a team should be able to take him out. [/quote'] I think this is where the issue lies. Those complaining want Grond to be the CU hulk. The Hulk is not easily taken out by a whole team of heroes - he's fought many hero teams to a standstill. Grond is simply not at that level. If you want a CU Hulk, he needs a powerup. If not, he's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? What we really need is HERO writeups of Krunk and the rest of the Justice Friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? I swear I've seen Krunk and Val Hallen writups before... but Search has failed me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? A 12d6 attack punches a "Man" sized hole in a building big enough for a single character to fit through. EVERY point of body above that DOUBLES the size of the hole. When the hole is larger than the building, the building WILL fall down. This is simple common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? I think this is where the issue lies. Those complaining want Grond to be the CU hulk. The Hulk is not easily taken out by a whole team of heroes - he's fought many hero teams to a standstill. Grond is simply not at that level. If you want a CU Hulk' date=' he needs a powerup. If not, he's fine.[/quote'] I'm not sure people expect Grond to be hulkish. They just expect him to be as tough against them as he was in 1e thru 4e. In 5e Grond isn't a team foe. He's hired muscle for other villains so they can come in-mass. Assuming about 50 xp a year Grond is someone the team brick can expect to go 1 on 1 against in about a year. I don't think anyone felt that way in the first 4 editions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? A 12d6 attack punches a "Man" sized hole in a building big enough for a single character to fit through. EVERY point of body above that DOUBLES the size of the hole. When the hole is larger than the building, the building WILL fall down. This is simple common sense. You're unfortunately forgetting a skyscraper isn't held up by exterior walls. The steel girders holding up the building that the exterior walls are attached to are much more resistant to damage. Like I said above, check out the knocking down buildings rules in Champions. It's not great but it makes more sense then your option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimble Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? In my first encounter with Grond back in the early 90's Our Supers (250pt characters) mopped the floor with him. Our Mentalist Mind Controlled him into climbing into a bathtub for a bath. Once he was settled we all coordinated our biggest attacks on him at once. Once he was stunned out we threw a plugged in hairdryer into the tub to keep him stunned. Easy as pie! Grimble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Does it? From a realistic perspective, sure. But this is a comic book universe. First and foremost, you have to encourage PC's to be careful with their superpowers. If a guy leaps from the top of a building and he's a one ton object, and he expects to freely land after colliding with a random object in midair, it's likely he's just going to take the terminal velocity falling damage. Using their rules on the size of the hole, it wound up being about 8 city blocks. A hole is a hole. It doesn't contain anything. This falls into the category of let supers be super. Just make sure if you're going to take this option you ask your players questions like "Are you sure you want to take this action?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Does that math work out? A one ton object making a whole the size of eight city blocks? I mean, in the real world, do the physics work like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Of course we can rewrite Grond to turn him into the terror that matches his reputation; I've done that for my own campaign. I guess what's bothersome is that so many of us feel we have to, to make him fit in with other major menaces of the Champions Universe as they're officially written up. I remember the chapter in Champions Universe describing "Significant Superhuman Threats." They mention Dr. Destroyer, the Crowns of Krim, Takofanes, Gravitar, Mechanon, Firewing, Menton, Teleios, Istvatha V'han, Dr. Yin Wu, the Warlord... and Grond. Does anyone seriously believe that Grond as statted belongs in that company? If Grond was at least the top brick on Champions Earth, that might be enough, but he isn't. Both Ripper (from the VIPER sourcebook) and Gargantua are stronger as well as faster, and Ripper in particular would manhandle Grond one-on-one. Oh. Well, sorry about that. I just get testy some days. It's not like I wrote Grond or anything sorry if was uppity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? I think this is where the issue lies. Those complaining want Grond to be the CU hulk. The Hulk is not easily taken out by a whole team of heroes - he's fought many hero teams to a standstill. Grond is simply not at that level. If you want a CU Hulk' date=' he needs a powerup. If not, he's fine.[/quote'] Ah, ...but, the Hulk is a protaganist in his own comic book. He's a founder of the Avengers. When he shows up on a team how do they take care of him? Grond's just a four armed sad sack with really bad complexion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? In my first encounter with Grond back in the early 90's Our Supers (250pt characters) mopped the floor with him. Our Mentalist Mind Controlled him into climbing into a bathtub for a bath. Once he was settled we all coordinated our biggest attacks on him at once. Once he was stunned out we threw a plugged in hairdryer into the tub to keep him stunned. Easy as pie! Grimble And quite original. "Grond want Bubblebath." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? I'm not sure people expect Grond to be hulkish. They just expect him to be as tough against them as he was in 1e thru 4e. In 5e Grond isn't a team foe. He's hired muscle for other villains so they can come in-mass. Assuming about 50 xp a year Grond is someone the team brick can expect to go 1 on 1 against in about a year. I don't think anyone felt that way in the first 4 editions. Grond's GM has been bilking him xp for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan D. Hurricanes Posted January 5, 2007 Report Share Posted January 5, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Ah, ...but, the Hulk is a protaganist in his own comic book. He's a founder of the Avengers. When he shows up on a team how do they take care of him? Grond's just a four armed sad sack with really bad complexion. Exactly. Grond isn't the Hulk. He's the Abomination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Not really. The Abomination is a lot smarter than Grond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Ah, ...but, the Hulk is a protaganist in his own comic book. He's a founder of the Avengers. When he shows up on a team how do they take care of him? In the Ultimate Universe Cap kicks the crap out of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? In the Ultimate Universe Cap kicks the crap out of him. Another point of evidence that the Ultimate universe is ridiculous. As much as I like Cap, I would never rate his chances against the Hulk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Another point of evidence that the Ultimate universe is ridiculous. As much as I like Cap' date=' I would never rate his chances against the Hulk.[/quote'] Yeah. There were lots of exteniuting circumstances, and he only got a couple of good shots it, after Tony and Thor had pounded on him for a while. Series tanget alert but hey... at least this bit relates to Grond. My favorite Grond moment was one my wife Gmed. My character was a supersuit, and a boxer, and had the MA package and kept Grond distracted till he flew him away out of reach for a bit. He set Grond down, and grond went to fight and Ballistic flew back and got in a boxing pose. Grond mirrored it (badly) then said "How you fight?" Ballistic answered "Boxing".. and then grond looked down at his arms (in a boxing pose) then looked up and said "Adriiiaaaan". Great moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? Ultimate Cap seems to be stronger and tougher than his 616 counterpart. That said, his offense against Ultimate Hulk consisted of landing a tank on him, kicking him in the face, punching him in the nose, kicking him in the nuts, bashing him with the shield and then foot sweeping him, all in relativly rapid succession. This just made Hulk angry. Hulk responded to this by breaking Caps arm and beating the crap out of him. Cap mostly blocks with the shield, but he did take one right in the head. The fact he wasn't KOed by this tells you how tough Ultimate Cap is. Fortunately, Ultimate Thor showed up before Hulk could do any real damage. Thor sent the Hulk flying with a bolt of lighting and then hit him a few times full on with the hammer. Broke Hulks ribs and jaw and punctured a lung. This also made Hulk angry, so Hulk proceeded to KO Goldilocks in one hit that sent him half way across Manhattan. And that was just the Grey Hulk... it was the Green Hulk that ripped Wolverine in half and threw his legs four miles up a mountain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? And that was just the Grey Hulk... it was the Green Hulk that ripped Wolverine in half and threw his legs four miles up a mountain I just wonder if we will ever see the rest of that miniseries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted January 6, 2007 Report Share Posted January 6, 2007 Re: Grond, underpowered pansy? There were lots of exteniuting circumstances, and he only got a couple of good shots it, after Tony and Thor had pounded on him for a while No, at the point where Cap entered the battle, Hulk had almost killed Giant Man and was tryig to do the same to Iron Man. Iron man blasted him with some sonic attack and then knocked him out of a building. Wasp distracts Hulk and then Cap lands the tank on him. Thor didn't come in until after Cap had fought Hulk mano-a-mano. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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