Grond, underpowered pansy?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

That said, his offense against Ultimate Hulk consisted of landing a tank on him, kicking him in the face, punching him in the nose, kicking him in the nuts, bashing him with the shield and then foot sweeping him, all in relativly rapid succession.

 

This just made Hulk angry.

 

Was a great couple of pages though.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Thor didn't come in until after Cap had fought Hulk mano-a-mano.

 

It's been a bit. Sign I need to reread it.

[nexus]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Another point of evidence that the Ultimate universe is ridiculous. As much as I like Cap' date=' I would never rate his chances against the Hulk.[/quote']

 

To be fair, Ultimate Captain America seems more overtly superhuman than traditional Cap and he didn't really "beat" him but got in some good shots at weak points, got him mad and took a beating for it.

 

Edit: Scooped!

[csyphrett]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

I just wonder if we will ever see the rest of that miniseries.

 

It's cancelled according to Comicon posters.

CES

[Mike W]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Getting back to the original thread idea:

 

What is supposed to make Grond tough is that he has 90 STR, so he can CON stun just about any non-brick every time he hits them. And since a CON stunned character is a sitting duck, the way to make Grond effective is to force close quarters where knockback will get stopped by walls. One on one against anyone other than a mentalist or pyrokinetic and most supers are in trouble. He can outlast most bricks and literally ends most other fights with the first punch he lands because he does 63 STUN(so probably 35-38 through defenses) each hit. If that isn't enough STUN to knock you out, you should easily be CON stunned. And since he gets an average of 11 KB, you might just take a little extra damage from hitting a wall or something. That kind of "one punch to end a fight" power is going to give him a towering reputation. It also makes the fact that he can be whittled down much less relevent since in a one on one fight, you have to last long enough to whittle him down, which isn't easy given his raw power. And his base DEF plus hideous REC mean that he takes damage decently and regains STUN at a frightening rate.

 

Best Grond moment in a campaign I played in: The martial artist got locked up in a one on one fight with Grond and basically spent all his time dodging and taunting Grond. Of course, since the martial artist was dodging behind agents on Grond's team, Grond was doing lots of damage to his own guys trying to get the little guy. While Grond was distracted, I snuck up behind him with my power armored character(who was "trying out" for the team as I was joining an established campaign) and I haymakered him, CON stunning Grond and making him easy pickings for everyone else to finish off. It got quite a reaction from the team(and got me a pretty quick acceptance, at least in terms of capability) from the rest of the team.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Ultimate Cap seems to be stronger and tougher than his 616 counterpart.

 

---snip---

 

And that was just the Grey Hulk... it was the Green Hulk that ripped Wolverine in half and threw his legs four miles up a mountain

 

Ultimate Cap is tougher and stronger than 616 Cap.

Ultimate Hulk is weaker and more vulnerable than 616 Hulk.

I base this on something I saw in Wizard magazine a while back, where the Ultimate writers were comparing the power levels of various charcaters in the Ultimate Universe, and comparing what they said to the OHOTMU.

That said, Cap taking down Hulk, even for a few seconds, impressive. Ultimate Cap rocks!

[Guest TheUnknown]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

THe problem is that if you obey the rules to the letter, Grond is incredibly dangerous. Let's take a look at Grond's STR 90. Assuming the PC's don't knock him out on phase 12, Grond Punches a Skyscraper.

 

Joe Skyscraper has standard concrete walls, for a DEF of 7 and a BODY of 5. So that means that Grond has just punched a 64 Hex hole in that building.

 

Now, a city block in New York City is 1/18 of a mile, or about 32 hexes.

 

So, can your superheroes stop a falling skyscraper? Yeah, that's right, a falling Skyscraper. This weighs more than any superhero in your game can probably lift, the building is FILLED WITH PEOPLE, and when it hits, well, the shockwave will produce even more damage.

 

So think twice about Grond. Because the danger doesn't always come from what happens if he hits a character.

 

Where do you get your measurements for 64 hex hole?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

It's cancelled according to Comicon posters.

CES

 

Kinda Figured

[Tom]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

So far, in every encounter I've had with Grond, he's lasted less than a Turn -- and if the team included a mentalist or fire SFX he usually doesn't make it past the initial phase. Though to be honest, there are two factors involved. One is the dice seem to have been in tune with the heroes these days (I can recall only 3 fights with Grond off hand, and someone gets some seriously good dice in each of them). The other is the players hear 'Grond' and the gloves come all the way off and everyone busts out their best attacks (usually)...

 

Two of the fights were in Hero Central games. In 'Zodiac', Aires (Fire SFX) managed to CON Stun Grond with his opening shot, iirc. In 'A Game of Chance' (the only fight I've had with Grond that didn't include a mentalist or fire SFX in the mix), my char managed to hold onto Grond for two whole phases while the rest of team unloaded on him (I pulled pretty much every trick on my char sheet and was pushing to boot, even with the post-12 REC I'd have been burning STUN for END if I tried to do that for another phase) and the TK-based blaster managed a crit -- winning the Stun Lotto with an RKA. I'll mention I also got some very good rolls in the STR vs STR contest while Grond was rolling below average...

 

Now why the TK player was playing the Stun Lotto escapes me, but I started out as a war gamer rather than with RPGs and I'm a firm believer in alpha strikes against reduced DCV targets that can't fight back...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Ult Hulk vs Wolverine

 

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Wolverine_Vs._Hulk:

 

The third issue of the series has met with delays. It was originally solicited for April 19, 2006, only to be resolicited for May 17. That date came and went, and after about a week with no word on the issue's fate, Marvel announced that it would be released July 12. Further delays caused the issue to be bumped to August 9, then September 20, then October 25, then November 1, November 8, and December 27. Finally it was announced in mid-November 2006 that the third issue of the series had been officially cancelled until all of the remaining issues of the mini series are completed. [3]

 

That's also my understanding from my FLC&GS.

[Balabanto]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Ahh, the 64 hex hole. This is actually sort of polite and assumes Grond rolls average. If he punches, that's 18d6.

 

Thats 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 if you count out where 12 destroys the wall.

 

If he haymakers...(God Forbid, but really, he should do this, because he's probably going dead LAST in the order and there's no one to stop him from doing it, you go to 128 256 512 1024)

 

At this point, the problem is, the building's weight is not evenly distributed, because that hole has obliterated the base of support for the outer edge of the building, thus forcing the girders and interior superstructure to support that extra weight without it connecting to anything and distributing that extra mass. Ergo, the building is going to start falling, real soon.

 

By the way, once you have a 1024 Hex hole, that pretty much wrecks any hope the PC's have of saving everyone. Even if you assume that a city block is about 1/18 of a mile, or about 360 feet, that's about 120 meters, or 60 hexes, that entire city block, or at least, that building, is over.

 

Now, this means that we're talking about a building like the Sears Tower or the Empire State Building. Smaller Skyscrapers...forget about it.

[Squall]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

So you're saying he punches the side of a building, and a city block blows up?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

On the Haymaker note, that means a 60 STR Brick can get a 16 hex hole, which will have pretty much the same effect, won't it? After all, if Grond can manage with his 90 STR, then a 16d6 haymakered punch will have a similar, though marginally smaller, effect. Let me at that VIPER headquarters!

[OddHat]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

On the Haymaker note' date=' that means a 60 STR Brick can get a 16 hex hole, which will have pretty much the same effect, won't it? After all, if Grond can manage with his 90 STR, then a 16d6 haymakered punch will have a similar, though marginally smaller, effect. Let me at that VIPER headquarters![/quote']

 

Actually, that's not a bad idea if the GM wants to allow it. IME, Champions games often lack an epic, comic book feel in part because GMs don't allow over the top stunts, even when those stunts are within the rules. There's something to be said for letting players feel that there characters really are Supers.

[Balabanto]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Yes, it is. It's also why I have a 70 AP maximum for "The Most Powerful Heroes in the World."

 

The guys who designed the old editions weren't morons. They really DID know what they were doing. It's just that everything has to be "Bigger, Better, Faster,Harder" now even though there's really no need for it.

 

Is the NEW CU really mighty? Sure.

 

But is the power level necessary? Nope.

 

When a Brick with a 60 STR can level most skyscrapers, you have, in fact, achieved a level of awesome superpower. Sure, he can't knock people BACK the equivalent distance, but that's okay, superheroes should be super tough too.

 

So the answer is, no. Grond is not an underpowered pansy. He's just underpowered by the standards of the overpowered comics that people today are reading.

 

Often, people forget that the best stories that are told in comics are the human stories, the stories about people. The stories we remember from Comics aren't always "The Final Showdown with the Jackal."

 

We remember "A Guy Named Joe". We remember "Everyman." We remember that one Christmas in Gotham City where the Justice League comes to give Batman one night off....

 

And if you make the characters too powerful, your players will lose that sense that stories like that can be told, indeed, that they even mean anything.

 

So yeah, they have the capability to destroy a building. But don't forget the little stories that make the characters human.

[Watchdog]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Saying that Grond is overrated because he won't last a turn against a party that includes a pyro and a mentalist is like saying that Superman is overrated becuase he won't last a turn against a villain group with Kapitan Kryptonite.

[Mike W]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Yes, it is. It's also why I have a 70 AP maximum for "The Most Powerful Heroes in the World."

 

The guys who designed the old editions weren't morons. They really DID know what they were doing. It's just that everything has to be "Bigger, Better, Faster,Harder" now even though there's really no need for it.

 

Is the NEW CU really mighty? Sure.

 

But is the power level necessary? Nope.

 

When a Brick with a 60 STR can level most skyscrapers, you have, in fact, achieved a level of awesome superpower. Sure, he can't knock people BACK the equivalent distance, but that's okay, superheroes should be super tough too.

 

So the answer is, no. Grond is not an underpowered pansy. He's just underpowered by the standards of the overpowered comics that people today are reading.

 

Often, people forget that the best stories that are told in comics are the human stories, the stories about people. The stories we remember from Comics aren't always "The Final Showdown with the Jackal."

 

We remember "A Guy Named Joe". We remember "Everyman." We remember that one Christmas in Gotham City where the Justice League comes to give Batman one night off....

 

And if you make the characters too powerful, your players will lose that sense that stories like that can be told, indeed, that they even mean anything.

 

So yeah, they have the capability to destroy a building. But don't forget the little stories that make the characters human.

 

The JLA gave Batman a night off? Can you tell me what issue? I'd love to read it.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

The JLA gave Batman a night off? Can you tell me what issue? I'd love to read it.

I'm guessing it came before the similar story in Astro City? Which was an awesome story, one of my favorites; I'd like to read the Batman (or JLA? I bet it was in a Batman title though) story, too.

[MitchellS]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Now' date=' this means that we're talking about a building like the Sears Tower or the Empire State Building. Smaller Skyscrapers...forget about it.[/quote']

Since the Sears' Towers exterior walls are only hardened glass [around 2/2] you should be able to take out about 18 miles when you hit it. That just goes to show you how stupid that rule is. The rule in Champions make much more sense.

[MitchellS]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Saying that Grond is overrated because he won't last a turn against a party that includes a pyro and a mentalist is like saying that Superman is overrated becuase he won't last a turn against a villain group with Kapitan Kryptonite.

If you'd read the entire thread then you'd have noticed that I did a short breakdown for how the Champions [sans mentalist or pyro] would take out Grond in a turn [and most people consider the Champions under built as starting lever characters].

[Publius]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Since the Sears' Towers exterior walls are only hardened glass [around 2/2] you should be able to take out about 18 miles when you hit it. That just goes to show you how stupid that rule is. The rule in Champions make much more sense.

Plus (since I presume you are not in favor of this first method you mention with the 2/2 wall), any building that has "Hardened glass" as an exterior wall is a "Curtain Wall" style building. The sort where the exterior walls are not actually holding anything up. (like this) Taking a cubic buttload of damage might indeed cause the whole side of the building to ripple out (like the wave effect seen in some movies, I think the Matrix used this for one scene with the helicopter explosion) and rain down all sorts of nastiness but leave the interior of the building just fine since it is only "hung" there like a curtain. In other words, the titanic blow rips off the facade taking all that wonderful kinetic energy with it. But it would look very cool.

 

I've reviewed the rules for Breaking Buildings in The Ultimate Brick, pp113-114, and they seem to handle things quite well (although I frankly have never tested them since I usually run a low-powered super game. Sometimes something that looks good on paper doesn't work as smoothly on the table, but I'm more than willing to give the benefit of the doubt). Using that system an "average" building (reinforced concrete walls) has been compromised at 50 Body points, but that only means that there is a chance that it will fall down (per an activation roll) over a given amount of time (starting at 1 day). The activation roll gets lower and the timespan gets shorter for each multiple of this 50 Body. We are talking about 350 points of BODY damage (not Stun) for a 1 turn 8- activation roll. Grond would actually take a while to level a Skyscraper at 90 STR 18 Body on average/swing. Not a LONG while maybe, but a number of hits.

 

BTW, Did I do that right under those rules?

[MitchellS]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

BTW' date=' Did I do that right under those rules?[/quote']

Yes, you're correct. Those're the same rules I've been mentioning throughout the thread from Champions. Grond would need to hit the building about 9 times to get past the 1x multiplier of a 7/5 [and a building would need to take around 200 body before it had a good chance of toppling].

[Watchdog]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

If you'd read the entire thread then you'd have noticed that I did a short breakdown for how the Champions [sans mentalist or pyro] would take out Grond in a turn [and most people consider the Champions under built as starting lever characters].

 

Your breakdown assumed Grond never hit any of them in combat, so imo it left a little to be desired.

 

There aren't many published characters built on Grond's points who will survive a 5 on 1 assault from a competent team for more than a turn, unless they have high levels of damage reduction.

 

Whether something is overrated or not depends on your expectations. If one expects Grond to be an even match for an entire team, then I suppose he is overrated.

[MitchellS]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Your breakdown assumed Grond never hit any of them in combat' date=' so imo it left a little to be desired.[/quote']

Grond has a maximum of 10 ocv and 4 dcv. Both Nighthawk and Ironclad have an 11 ocv with a block. As I said, they only need to keep him from hitting 2-3 times before Sapphire and Defender take him out [and with a 4 dcv he's all but impossible to hit].

 

There aren't many published characters built on Grond's points who will survive a 5 on 1 assault from a competent team for more than a turn, unless they have high levels of damage reduction.

 

Whether something is overrated or not depends on your expectations. If one expects Grond to be an even match for an entire team, then I suppose he is overrated.

I think the point of the thread was to complain about why Grond doesn't perform the same way in 5e that he did in 1e-4e. In early editions Grond was a group threat unless you had fire or mental. In 5e he's a pushover who's been surplanted by other villains who he used to be superior to.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Grond, underpowered pansy?

 

Plus (since I presume you are not in favor of this first method you mention with the 2/2 wall)' date=' any building that has "Hardened glass" as an exterior wall is a "Curtain Wall" style building. The sort where the exterior walls are not actually holding anything up. (like this) Taking a cubic buttload of damage might indeed cause the whole side of the building to ripple out (like the wave effect seen in some movies, I think the Matrix used this for one scene with the helicopter explosion) and rain down all sorts of nastiness but leave the interior of the building just fine since it is only "hung" there like a curtain. In other words, the titanic blow rips off the facade taking all that wonderful kinetic energy with it. But it would look very cool.

 

I've reviewed the rules for Breaking Buildings in The Ultimate Brick, pp113-114, and they seem to handle things quite well (although I frankly have never tested them since I usually run a low-powered super game. Sometimes something that looks good on paper doesn't work as smoothly on the table, but I'm more than willing to give the benefit of the doubt). Using that system an "average" building (reinforced concrete walls) has been compromised at 50 Body points, but that only means that there is a chance that it will fall down (per an activation roll) over a given amount of time (starting at 1 day). The activation roll gets lower and the timespan gets shorter for each multiple of this 50 Body. We are talking about 350 points of BODY damage (not Stun) for a 1 turn 8- activation roll. Grond would actually take a while to level a Skyscraper at 90 STR 18 Body on average/swing. Not a LONG while maybe, but a number of hits.

 

BTW, Did I do that right under those rules?

 

Arrgh.

Yet another size/scale issue.

So now a 20d6 Megascale Nuke, ala TUV, won'rt take out a skyscraper?

And if you can throw 91 body in a single attack, its easier to destroy the planet the building sits on rather than targeting the building?

I obviously don't have TUB, but adding a whole 'nother set of breaking things rules sounds like it's just making already muddy waters even more polluted.