What is the defense against Change Environment?

[OddHat]

I don't use Change Environment much. A few months ago, I saw it in action, a -6 to Dex rolls to stand or fly with the SFX of a wind storm. It was overwhelmingly effective. I realized later that I'd allowed too broad a range of effects for the CE, that it was too effective for the price, but it got me to thinking. What, exactly, is the official defense against Change Environment effects? What other, non-official defenses do you allow?

[pinecone]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

Enviro move...?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

Absolute defense:

Clinging (when on solid ground)

No Turn Mode advantange on Flight

Environmental Movement

 

Direct 1 to 1 defense against CE modifiers:

KB resistance (plus anything else that provides it like Growth and DI)

Levels with Flight

[BNakagawa]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

not being there

 

as change environment is a catchall power for an infinite number of effects, there is no catchall defense for all of them, other than not being in the area of effect.

 

Alternately, if your GM allows it, a sufficient number of appropriately flavored PSLs will do the trick against roll penalties.

[Cancer]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

Desolid could do it, too.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

not being there

 

Never EVER type that while I've got something in my mouth: it makes an awful mess of the screen.

 

On topic I recently said that I felt that too much was being made of the 'roll or else' penalties in CE (it was on the Babel Effect thread) and I meant it: I really do feel that CE should generally be limtied to -3 on rolls, and even that is pretty effective. I would not allow '(roll) or fly' - that is a UBO fly or TK attack (or any one of a number of other effects).

 

-X or fall over is OK: you lose 1/2 a phase but event hen I'd not allow a really big number.

 

CE does not have a defence (except high characteristics or some sort of supress field), and I can understand why. Enviro movement is a good sugegstion although it is unlikely to come up in practice.

 

Perhaps CE should be considered NND: you have to define something it does not work against? That or really just limit the minuses it can apply.

[OddHat]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

I would not allow '(roll) or fly' - that is a UBO fly or TK attack (or any one of a number of other effects).

 

It was "Roll or trip / tumble out of control", designed to let the wind controller knock planes out of the air if the pilot wasn't good.

[CraterMaker]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

I've made a couple of killer change environment powers before, and I'd -generally- keep the penalties minor (unless allready built into Change Enviro) - losing a half phase, not being able to turn while moving, etc...

 

You could allways offer alternative powers - Like a Flight suppress based on an opposed skill roll (Characters Power skill vrs dex roll/aerobatics roll/piloting roll)..

a lot of it would have to do with what EFFECT he wanted to have on his targets, or even how much control he wanted on the effects..

 

For a Change Environ like you've mentioned, I'd just rule that the plane can not make any controlled turns in the AE, and that the direction of the plane would change by a hex facing according to a die roll- 1) angled upwards a facing 2) angled downwards a facing 3 & 4) straight ahead 5)angled left a facing and 6) angled right a facing

 

The effect on Ground Characters? Well, probly half phase movement if they fail a dex roll. Bigger effects than those listed should probly be bought as other powers, such as entangle, telekinesis, suppress, etc...

 

Two pennies worth, tho..

 

For defense, there's dive for cover, environmental movement, or making your stat roll..

 

-CraterMaker

[Lord Liaden]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

I dug these relevant passages out of the FAQ:

 

 

Question: Is there any defense to the penalties imposed on a character by a Change Environment?

 

Answer: Typically, the defense is "stay out of the affected area" (or "get out of the affected area," if the character’s already in it). However, the GM may in his discretion rule that certain defenses, or actions by the affected character, constitute protection against the CE’s effects. For example, having certain Enhanced Senses might act as a "defense" against gloom-based CEs that inhibit vision, and putting on snowshoes or spiked boots would protect a character against the DEX Roll penalty imposed by an ice sheet. As always, you should consider the special effects involved, common sense, and dramatic sense.

 

 

Question: The rules indicate that Change Environment can’t be used to create "positive" effects, like bonuses to OCV and the like. However, could it be used to negate negative effects created by another use of CE - for example, one character with "Weather Control" creates fog (-3 Sight PER), while another with his own Weather Control power removes the fog (and the penalty)?

 

Answer: While CE can’t be used to create "positive effects" (such as an OCV bonus or an increase in a character’s inches of Running) out of the blue (i.e., where no negative condition exists), in most instances GMs should allow CE to cancel out a negative modifier that CE could impose, provided that it’s within the special effect/scope of the CE used for the cancellation. For example, if a character has CE (change the weather), he could use that to heat up an area, melt ice, and eliminate (or reduce) the DEX Roll penalty for walking across that ice. However, GMs may wish to require characters to use Images instead of CE to negate CE-created PER Roll penalties (particularly if doing so involves creating light).

[Duke Bushido]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

Change Environment _Back_.

 

I think a printer's error omitted it.

[zornwil]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

I dug these relevant passages out of the FAQ:

 

 

Question: Is there any defense to the penalties imposed on a character by a Change Environment?

 

Answer: Typically, the defense is "stay out of the affected area" (or "get out of the affected area," if the character’s already in it). However, the GM may in his discretion rule that certain defenses, or actions by the affected character, constitute protection against the CE’s effects. For example, having certain Enhanced Senses might act as a "defense" against gloom-based CEs that inhibit vision, and putting on snowshoes or spiked boots would protect a character against the DEX Roll penalty imposed by an ice sheet. As always, you should consider the special effects involved, common sense, and dramatic sense.

 

 

Question: The rules indicate that Change Environment can’t be used to create "positive" effects, like bonuses to OCV and the like. However, could it be used to negate negative effects created by another use of CE - for example, one character with "Weather Control" creates fog (-3 Sight PER), while another with his own Weather Control power removes the fog (and the penalty)?

 

Answer: While CE can’t be used to create "positive effects" (such as an OCV bonus or an increase in a character’s inches of Running) out of the blue (i.e., where no negative condition exists), in most instances GMs should allow CE to cancel out a negative modifier that CE could impose, provided that it’s within the special effect/scope of the CE used for the cancellation. For example, if a character has CE (change the weather), he could use that to heat up an area, melt ice, and eliminate (or reduce) the DEX Roll penalty for walking across that ice. However, GMs may wish to require characters to use Images instead of CE to negate CE-created PER Roll penalties (particularly if doing so involves creating light).

I was thinking this latter answer, that a counter CE could work.

 

So far our group has used CE for more colorful rather than combat-critical uses. One potentially-abusive use is that 1 PC (and this was truly unplanned, btw) can provide an environment that protects another PC against his weakness to cold, but so far it's been okay in that proximity has been required and, just due to schedules, the PCs are often not around each other.

 

I guess, anyway, back to the question, Suppress or Drain or the like is the only other direct defense. But as it's environmental, I can imagine all sorts of PC activities along the lines of Steve's first answer that addresses this.

 

Also, consider that the player has control over what he inflicts, but not the actual environmental interactions and SFX interplay. So there's room there, too. Simply being able to hold onto something may be sufficient or may grant at least a reasonable bonus.

[pinecone]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

All good...I'd also allow someone with the right powers to bypass or suffer a minimal effect...like say Air controll man (though I'd expect him to have Enviro move in the first place...)

[Duke Bushido]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

So I've got my head in the dryer, breathing hairspray and acetone.....

 

No; seriously.

 

My wife had a laundry accident: a couple of ink pens exploded in their today....

 

 

Anyway, it must have been just the right combination of chemical solvents and adhesives, because when I came out, I was....

 

changed....

 

For one, I gained the power of wobbling and and speech slurring that is matched only by contenders at the finest frat parties....

 

But something did come to me.

 

Change Environment is, at it's heart, an Adjustment-type power, right? Kind of a T-form, or perhaps a "Drain this" and "Succor that" kind of thing.

 

While, as others have pointed out in other threads, it's kind of a 'metagame' thing, why not assume that Power Defense is a reasonable defense for Change Environment?

 

Training rooms, supervillain holding cells, all kinds of nifty uses for that.

 

But then the question comes: define the environment affected? Or require AOE for such a construct? Would there be an assumed "ceiling" for this if we opt to use AOE? Or do we re-build AOE for 3 dimensions?

 

My own thoughts:

 

Power Defense, bought AOE. Using anything but "line," it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the mapped shape on the floor can be bisected along its length, and that the width from the center at that point would also determine the hieght of the effect at that point.

 

I hope that's as clear as it is for me at my own level of intoxication, because I can't follow it anymore. I need to go vomit, and wander around the yard for a bit.

 

Have fun with it.

[zornwil]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

DB, sorry you're so sick! My wife has had some similar experiences lately, a simlarly long story but basically working on an addressing job (she's a calligrapher) she has these envelopes which can't easily be written on, they have to be sprayed with a chemical in order to hold ink well. The chemicals of the spray really got to her.

 

Anyway, um, I dunno, I don't like extending PowD to CE, and for a few reasons. First, CE really isn't an Adj. power, in that it may be there just for non-mechanical effects (for example, our mentalist can project headaches throughout a large area depending on her level of annoyance, but it doesn't do anything meaningful, though I have allowed of course various SFX interactions). Also, it's often more of applying a skill level problem to people by the virtue of the environment itself - and so what you are saying becomes dangerously tantamount to saying "in a windstorm, just use your PowD to resist the effects," and I think that makes PowD WAY too powerful. And it makes the SFX even messier, whereas I think that normal environmental conditions begat their own natural "defense" from players and we can do the same with CE.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's an interesting thought, though, worthy of investigation.

 

But to me, here's the fundamental key to understanding CE. You pay points for your PC to be able to "change the environment." Associated, you get some mechanical effects. However, the GM is the one who is responsible still to accord how the environment affects people, so he has a fundamental stake, as you did not pay to do that, exactly. Granted, there are some mechanical effects declared, as I stated. But those are associated with the environmental change. If Strong Grip Lad grabs a flag pole, he should surely get a bonus against that wind's affect on his DEX.

 

Of course, also, the GM should look at these things carefully. But I would have run into the same as OddHat. The difficulty in a -4 DEX thing is also it's relative nature in a campaign, and whether the points for that attack are in accord with that and so on. So the core rules make it a bit hard to predict what's reasonable. Whether it's a problem in a campaign will vary tremendously, really.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

I like the "Define how its ressisted when its bought" idea. Just like NND, Desolid, & Uncontrolled (and probably others I'm presently blanking on). Its internally consistent for the various SFX driven abilities already in place. As CE is designed to be by nature kinda "low powered", even when bought at a really nasty level, the "defence" shouldn't be too onerous, and dramatic sense & GM's calls are totally appropos, but there should be a mention in there somewhere.

[zornwil]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

ANB, you are right, pure and simple, in my book, good point, simple and consistent - and easy.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

Thanks Zorn.

Sean should get some credit here too... He already suggested the same earlier:

 

 

Perhaps CE should be considered NND: you have to define something it does not work against? That or really just limit the minuses it can apply.

 

I just clarified it after it percolated in my brain a bit.

 

(Rep for Sean)

EDIT: Or not. Must Spread it around, blah blah blah...

I gotta go looking for more repworthy posts....

[Duke Bushido]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

indeed. That's probably the simplest thing yet.

 

though I would like to clarify one thing in my own suggestion:

 

Character's would not use _their_ Power Defense to resist the affects of a Changed environment. An environment would use its own Power Defense to resist being changed.

 

Sorry if I was unclear.

 

Again, however:

the 'define it when you buy it' is nice and clean.

 

And my condolence and empathy to your wife.

[zornwil]

Re: What is the defense against Change Environment?

 

indeed. That's probably the simplest thing yet.

 

though I would like to clarify one thing in my own suggestion:

 

Character's would not use _their_ Power Defense to resist the affects of a Changed environment. An environment would use its own Power Defense to resist being changed.

 

Sorry if I was unclear.

 

Again, however:

the 'define it when you buy it' is nice and clean.

 

And my condolence and empathy to your wife.

Oh, thanks, she's okay of course since. I'm sure she'd send the same back, she's not here at the moment to tell.

 

Now I get the idea better, sorry I missed it. That's a neat idea.