Plucking Out Eyes

[Susano]

How would you build this?

 

Transform? A martial maneuver with Disable? Or some form of HKA?

 

The objective to to physically remove the eye and cause PER issues and blindness to foes.

 

And no, this ability isn't for a hero character.

[pinecone]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Well...the "official way is Transform...but I'd just use a targeted Killing attack...add in disabling rules and its all good...

[zornwil]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

If it's physically removing, I'd go with Transform, since it will be a permanent result until the eye is somehow reunited or reconstructed. Other constructions will get a bit kludgy in trying to replicate that, I would think. I guess I could be jumping to a conclusion, it just seems the simplest and most direct ability.

 

Of course in a more realistic campaign just go with Hit Locations and Impairing rules.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Transform is good. Hit location (eye/eyes) + impairing is good.

 

One other method that I have used (though it depends on genre and other considerations), is Drain - with a long recovery period. I know it's not for everyone, and it isn't appropriate for all concepts, but it can work for some concepts.

 

Also, BTW, I use a house rule where this kind of Transform would be 10 points per d6, rather than 15 as I think is standard. After all, the person is only blind, not dead, and may still have other senses/powers and not be totally helpless.

[Edsel]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Well...the "official way is Transform...but I'd just use a targeted Killing attack...add in disabling rules and its all good...

If you go the targeted killing attack route then Dark Champions has an expanded hit location table. Specifically targeting the eyes is a -10 penalty.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Chalk up another vote for targeting the eyes and using the Disabling rules, if it's a combat strike. In any situation where you could use the 'automatic kill' rule, just let (any) character gouge out the eye.

 

*****************

 

"I can pop 'em out like grapes, boy."

 

 

 

(Massive Presence Attack!)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

There is no rule or mechanic in Hero that lets you permanently blind someone without some way of restoring their vision. This means you can improvise. Go wild.

 

Now imparing/disabling is fine, but I wouldn't use it for a superhero campaign or one where hit locations are not generally used.

 

The best bet for that sort of game, IMO, would be a transform, possibly 'all or nothing' and definitely limited so that the appropriate defence was pd or ed if we were talking actual physical trauma. Even then you need to be able to recover somehow.

 

You could also consider sight a 'paid for' sense (25 points according to the book, 27 or 32 points according to me) and drain it with a very long recovery time.

 

You could have some sort of constant flash or 'single target' darkness, I suppose....

 

Mind you I probably wouldn't be permanently blinding a PC, unless it was an agreed plot development in which case you go with a 'radiation accident' (or appropriate genre alternative) and the player either gains the 'blind' disadvantage, and more points, or substitutes it for other disadvantages.

 

For NPCs it is not much of a problem either: minor ones are unlikely to be around long enough for 'permanent' to matter, and major ones could use the 'radiation accident' method.

[OddHat]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

I wouldn't bother with transform; in a game where I'm going to let people put out eyes and chop off limbs, I'm not going to say to a Player "Sorry Dave, you haven't spent any points on transform, so you just can't pop out the bad guy's eyes and eat them". I'd use the hit location, impairing and disabling rules in a campaign where this is allowed at all.

[zornwil]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Which reminds me, why are we talking about plucking people's eyes out!?!?

 

Oh, right, Susano. I think he watches anime. It's all the fault of that anime these crazy kids watch these days...

[Susano]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Which reminds me, why are we talking about plucking people's eyes out!?!?

 

Oh, right, Susano. I think he watches anime. It's all the fault of that anime these crazy kids watch these days...

 

Actually, I'm trying to build a HERO version of a Feng Shui character. And since Feng Shui is basically Dark Champions done weird, Hit Locations and Impairment sound like the best bet(s).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Even with the impairing and disabling rules you can only impose a permanent penalty to sight, not remove it, so you'll need to either be the GM or have the GM in your pocket

[zornwil]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Actually' date=' I'm trying to build a [i']HERO[/i] version of a Feng Shui character. And since Feng Shui is basically Dark Champions done weird, Hit Locations and Impairment sound like the best bet(s).

Yeah, go tell it to your mom, you black-wearin' bug-eyed-lovin' anime-watchin' ninja-worshipin' sci-fi-geekin' .... whatever-you-are....

 

Seriously, I really need to pick up Feng Shui sometime.

 

And, no, I didn't really think this was anime-inspired.

[zornwil]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Even with the impairing and disabling rules you can only impose a permanent penalty to sight' date=' not remove it, so you'll need to either be the GM or have the GM in your pocket [/quote']

Hmm, I was rereading and you're right.

 

IMHO probably the easiest thing is some sort of house rule where it's -1/2d6 per X BOD suffered to the eye, and if the penalty reduces the PER roll to (x or below, again, per game/setting) then the character is considered blinded, the eye removed. Anything less and the eye is damaged but not torn cleanly out. Of course, for less gruesome play (to avoid the "okay, I'm digging back in there...") you could easily apply the coup de grace rule if it should be a foregone conclusion by that point/the victim is helpless/that sort of thing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Hmm, I was rereading and you're right.

 

IMHO probably the easiest thing is some sort of house rule where it's -1/2d6 per X BOD suffered to the eye, and if the penalty reduces the PER roll to (x or below, again, per game/setting) then the character is considered blinded, the eye removed. Anything less and the eye is damaged but not torn cleanly out. Of course, for less gruesome play (to avoid the "okay, I'm digging back in there...") you could easily apply the coup de grace rule if it should be a foregone conclusion by that point/the victim is helpless/that sort of thing.

 

Coup de grace seems the very thing. Blinding someone permanently is a very nasty thing to do and being able to strike that accurately in the course of normal combat should be virtually impossible*, but if you have them cold, anything less than killing them can be considered a bonus Unfortunately you've been making too much sense lately for me to rep you for that.

 

 

 

 

*Even witht he disabling rules a head strike (-8) only has a 1 in 6 chance of targetting the sense organs, and that could be eyes or ears. I reckon -10 or even -12 to specifically target eyes in combat is not totally unrealistic...even then that is only 15-18 points with penalty skill levels...

[OddHat]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Even with the impairing and disabling rules you can only impose a permanent penalty to sight' date=' not remove it, so you'll need to either be the GM or have the GM in your pocket [/quote']

 

5thER p.417, whenever the damage done to an area is more than the BODY of a target, before or after location modifiers, and that area is disabled. Do more than the characters total BODY to an eye (before or after hit location modifiers) and that eye should pop. The chart on 417 is referencing hits to the head, not the eye; claiming that it's impossible to put out an eye by referencing that chart is the equivalent of claiming characters don't need to sleep in D&D because there are no specific rules for it.

 

EDIT: By the combat handbook on p.119, the eye is -12 to hit and the body multiplier is x2.5. For a character with 10 Body, a hit to the eye doing 5 body should take it out. See also the rules on severing limbs.

[OddHat]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Combat Handbook, p.116, offers the option of breaking or severing limbs. Do more than 1/3 of a characters BODY to a limb (after the BODYx) and it is broken or severed. You can't take more than 1/3 of your BODY from damage to a limb. Using that rule plus the expanded hit locations on CH p.119, hitting an Eye would be -12, the Eye has a 2.5 BODYx, and it will be plucked out/popped if you take more than 1/3 your BODY after the BODYx. So, a character with 10 BODY would lose an eye from a hit doing 2 or more BODY; normal folks can easily put out one-another's eyes if they can make that -12 shot.

 

[Susano]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

...normal folks can easily put out one-another's eyes if they can make that -12 shot.

 

That -12 becomes a +12 if you have a BB gun, are under the age of 12, and your mom warned you that "you're gonna put an eye out!" before hand.

[Zed-F]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Or if your name is Beatrix Kiddo and you are fighting someone named Elle.

[OddHat]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Or if your name is Beatrix Kiddo and you are fighting someone named Elle.

 

I figured Beatrix just had 4 or more levels with her martial arts and +8 versus hit locations, and Elle had her levels in OCV.

[Susano]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

I figured Beatrix just had 4 or more levels with her martial arts and +8 versus hit locations' date=' and Elle had her levels in OCV. [/quote']

 

Based on the first movie, the Bride has Defense Maneuver IV, 1-2 levels of Deadly Blow, at least +4 with HTH, and yes, those +8 OCV versus hit locations.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

If we are talking Kill Bill Part 2 "plucking the eye out" than I say Transform. It is gone and short of a replacement, it isn't coming back.

 

If we are talking a "throwing star to the eye" and going to a vet so that hopefully he can heal you, I'd go with disabling rules.

[nexus]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Don't Transforms have to have a means of being "healed" unless the Gm decides otherwise?

 

If I were going with Transform I'd make it Major. The majority of characters would be largely helpless for along time if suddenly blinded, particularly in the midde of fight and if they survived and couldn't regain their sight be very much reduced in capacity. Not "dead" but definitely changed on a very fundamental level.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

Lets not forget that Beatrix Kiddo's "Deadly Eye-pluck of Pai Mei" was performed as a Surprise move, since Elle wasn't expecting it at all. She got at least a +2OCV (if not +3) for hitting her with it.

[Susano]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

If we are talking Kill Bill Part 2 "plucking the eye out" than I say Transform. It is gone and short of a replacement' date=' it isn't coming back.[/quote']

 

This is the version I am looking at.

[OddHat]

Re: Plucking Out Eyes

 

If we are talking Kill Bill Part 2 "plucking the eye out" than I say Transform. It is gone and short of a replacement, it isn't coming back.

 

If we are talking a "throwing star to the eye" and going to a vet so that hopefully he can heal you, I'd go with disabling rules.

 

This is the version I am looking at.

 

Esthetically, I just don't like transform for this in a campaign with hit locations. The limb severing rules (page ref up thread) let you cut off an arm or leg; why not use them to cut out an eye? Sure, it's a nasty permanent change to a character, but so is getting a hand cut off.