New to HERO

[tomasina]

Hello,

 

I am new to the HERO system, although I come from a long gaming history using the DND system. We have been running into a number of challenges with the DND system and decided to try our hand with the HERO system.

 

I have purchased the HERO 5ER and SideKick books which I read in depth. Although I still do not get everything, the system is beginning to make sense. I have ran into a couple points that are still quite confusing to me... and I was hoping someone here might be able to help me out.

 

The first difference which I have encountered between DND and HERO is that when casting a spell the caster is required to make an attack roll against the target (which includes armor). This seems strange to me... why would armor protect against spells. In DND (the system I am familiar with) spells only require an attack roll if I need to touch them... and my players are confused by this new model. Could someone help me understand the reasoning behind the spell attack roll and why armor would help against spells?

 

Thanks,

 

Tomasina

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: New to HERO

 

Normally armor doesn't figure into an attack roll. Spells use attack rolls because spells are generally built as Powers, and Powers require attack rolls.

 

And many longtime Hero players have a hard time understanding why armor wouldn't protect from spells.

[gojira]

Re: New to HERO

 

Welcome Valkyrie... er, tomasina!

 

Armor doesn't have to help against spells. Use No Normal Defenses or Attack vs. Limited Defenses to make spells by-pass armor.

 

It is however a fundamental rule of HERO that attacks require an attack roll. Spells are not one shot deals in HERO. You can keep trying, and if you run out of Endurance then you can rest a bit and try some more. Spells might be fumbled, so the attack roll is required to see if they do.

 

You can use One Hex (Area of Effect) and No Range Modifier, plus Combat Skill Levels, to make spells hit much more often. But you still gotta roll to see if the spell caster fumbles.

[tomasina]

Re: New to HERO

 

Wow... thanks for the quick responses... I am amazed!

 

As usually happens, your answers have created more questions for me:

 

1 - It was stated that attack rolls normally do not include armor. I thought most attack rolls went against the targets Defense which includes armor, combat adjustments, etc. Is this incorrect?

 

If it is correct... I am confused about the wizard / fighter characters. In HERO how does a wizard (who has spent points on spells) ever fight against a fighter who can just buy a lot of armor in order to defend against hits and spells... while at the same time, spending a ton of points in combat skills with their weaponry... it seems that this would puts the balance greatly in favor of the fighter, rather than the wizard... since the Wizard would have to buy spells (powers) while also building a high enough combat to bypass the fighters armor. A wizard, in my mind, may not be able to use a sword well... but could be very powerful with spells... but how is this possible since without a high offensive combat level, the attack rolls would never succeed.

 

2 - Could someone explain, in story-telling terms, why armor would protect against spells? It would help me explain why this to my players. They are used to magic being compeltely uneffected by armor... so this is a huge paradym shift for them.

 

Thanks again,

 

Tomasina

[Lord Liaden]

Re: New to HERO

 

Welcome aboard, tomasina! I hope you enjoy the HERO System, and your visits to these boards.

 

It sounds to me that one of the first things you and your players will have to accustom yourselves to as you get into HERO, is that there's a difference between the mechanical elements of the game and what those elements end up being called by the time you've put them together the way you want. For example, there is nothing within the rules framework of HERO called "spells." If you want to create magic spells, or use any of the ones that have been created for you in the numerous HERO supplements, you would draw from the long list of Powers and Power Modifiers to customize them to work as you desire. As my colleagues above have pointed out, it's entirely possible to create spells that bypass any armor that someone is using, but that's a deliberate choice you make when you decide how you want spells to work in your game.

 

Similarly, Armor, which is the name of one of the defensive Powers in the system, is not necessarily the same as armor that one wears. At base it's something that reduces the damage that a person takes from an attack, but the "Special Effect" of it - i.e. the way it looks, sounds and so on - can be metal armor, or thick hide, or scales, or a telekinetic force field, or anything else you want to define it as. Using the various Modifiers you can alter the basic Armor Power to function in any number of specific ways that you might think better suits the Special Effects you've chosen, but again, that's a choice that you make.

 

What it comes down to is, with HERO you don't have to accept the decisions of a game designer for the mechanics of how magic, psionics, guns or anything work. You can design them to function the way you want them to. If you want to translate the mechanics of D&D into HERO, we can show you how to do that. Many of us have converted substantial amounts of material from that game. But if you want a magic system, for example, which works completely differently from D&D, you can create it using the HERO toolkit.

 

Regarding Attack Rolls, you should be aware that these are fundamental to the system because one of the basics of the game is that there are no absolutes: no total invulnerability, no attacks that always hit. You can certainly create something using the rules that in most cases and for all practical purposes is an absolute, but there will always be at least a slight possibility that it will fail or fall short. That is one deliberate design choice that's hardwired into the game.

 

You'll probably have more questions about these and other issues; feel free to keep posting them, and we'll do our best to answer.

[tomasina]

Re: New to HERO

 

Thanks for the quick replies... I was amazed that there were already responses to my questions. I really appreciate it.

 

Your replies have resulted in a couple more questions for me....

 

1 - You state that armor is not normally part of an attack roll... I believe you are saying that it is not part of the offensive attack roll... but armor (in whatever form the special effect states) would effect my roll in that an attack roll must overcome the defensice combat level of my opponent (which includes armor)... am I correct?

 

2 - How does a wizard's attack roll ever overcome the defensive combat level of a fighter or equally defensive opponent. In creating a wizard, I would not expect him to be a good fighter... but if he is not, how is he every going to succeed on an attack roll? Since a wizard already has to spend points on spells (powers) it seems that for the same character to also have to spend points on increasing their combat levels puts them at a disadvantage as compared to non-spell based classes.

 

Thanks for letting me know about the modifiers which can make a power ignore armor... I had not seen those modifiers... they deffinitely help with some spells.

 

3 - Could anyone explain, in storytelling terms, why armor would help protect against spells? I am trying to find a reasonable explanation as to why armor would help protect against spells (other than it just does) that I could use to help the system make more sense for my players.

 

Thanks again,

 

Tomasina

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: New to HERO

 

Thanks for the quick replies... I was amazed that there were already responses to my questions. I really appreciate it.

 

Your replies have resulted in a couple more questions for me....

 

1 - You state that armor is not normally part of an attack roll... I believe you are saying that it is not part of the offensive attack roll... but armor (in whatever form the special effect states) would effect my roll in that an attack roll must overcome the defensice combat level of my opponent (which includes armor)... am I correct?

 

Nope. The defense of Armor does not apply in the attack roll portion of any attack.

In D&D 3rd ed terms think of all Armor being Damage Reduction, rather than adding to AC.

 

2 - How does a wizard's attack roll ever overcome the defensive combat level of a fighter or equally defensive opponent. In creating a wizard, I would not expect him to be a good fighter... but if he is not, how is he every going to succeed on an attack roll? Since a wizard already has to spend points on spells (powers) it seems that for the same character to also have to spend points on increasing their combat levels puts them at a disadvantage as compared to non-spell based classes.

It could be seen that way. If the spellcaster has a favored attack spell, 2 pt levels with it are cheap. They would add to OCV for the attack roll.

 

Thanks for letting me know about the modifiers which can make a power ignore armor... I had not seen those modifiers... they deffinitely help with some spells.

 

3 - Could anyone explain, in storytelling terms, why armor would help protect against spells? I am trying to find a reasonable explanation as to why armor would help protect against spells (other than it just does) that I could use to help the system make more sense for my players.

 

Thanks again,

 

Tomasina

 

Well in the case of a Fireball, fore exmaple, - the armor still acts a buffer between the body and the fire, and helps reduce the damage of the fire attack. Or if it is a "Forcefull hand" kind of thing with the spell creating a physical force hitting the target - the armor would protect agains that as easily as it would against a mace or a staff attack.

 

Looking at the power advantages NND and AVLD are good choices for spells that ignore armor, something like a magic missle maybe (that is how I built such a thing for my Fantasy HERO game).

[ghost-angel]

Re: New to HERO

 

Thanks for the quick replies... I was amazed that there were already responses to my questions. I really appreciate it.

 

Your replies have resulted in a couple more questions for me....

 

1 - You state that armor is not normally part of an attack roll... I believe you are saying that it is not part of the offensive attack roll... but armor (in whatever form the special effect states) would effect my roll in that an attack roll must overcome the defensice combat level of my opponent (which includes armor)... am I correct?

 

2 - How does a wizard's attack roll ever overcome the defensive combat level of a fighter or equally defensive opponent. In creating a wizard, I would not expect him to be a good fighter... but if he is not, how is he every going to succeed on an attack roll? Since a wizard already has to spend points on spells (powers) it seems that for the same character to also have to spend points on increasing their combat levels puts them at a disadvantage as compared to non-spell based classes.

 

Thanks for letting me know about the modifiers which can make a power ignore armor... I had not seen those modifiers... they deffinitely help with some spells.

 

3 - Could anyone explain, in storytelling terms, why armor would help protect against spells? I am trying to find a reasonable explanation as to why armor would help protect against spells (other than it just does) that I could use to help the system make more sense for my players.

 

Thanks again,

 

Tomasina

 

1- No. DnD has two elements: The Attack Roll and Damage Done. Hero has three elements: The Attack Roll, The Defense, The Damage Done.

 

Broken down:

1) Your Attack Roll is your Offensive Combat Value vs their Defensive Combat Value. the DCV is not "armor" it's simply "How Hard Someone Is To Hit."

2) Once you determine a Hit has occured you Roll Effect (Damage in the case of an attack spell/Power). You subtract the targets Defenses (Physical Defense, Energy Defense, or Other) from the Damage Total.

3) Anything not stopped by the Defenses (any Damage Effect left over from step 2) applies to the targets STUN and/or Body.

 

Example:

Marius The Mage shoots a lightning bolt (Energy Blast Power) at Felix The Fighter. Marius has an Offensive Combat Value (OCV) of 6, Felix a Defensive Combat Value (DCV) of 5. Marius rolls his Attack and his a DCV of 7 (anything whose DCV is 7 or less is hit).

Marius now rolls his Damage, he fired a 6D6 lightning bolt and gets a total of 1,3,3,4,6,6 on his Attack Dice; which tranlsates to 23 STUN and 7 BODY. Felix is wearing his trusty leath vest which has 7 Physical Defense (PD), and he has a natural PD of 4, for a total of 11PD. 23-11 = 12 STUN and 7-11 = 0 (if damage subtracted is a negative number it rounds up to 0 Damage Done). [dang, that was a good damage roll, could have used that in my next Champions game....]

 

So Felix the Fighter has taken 12 STUN, and 0 BODY from the lightning bolt.

 

Note that Felixes Armor didn't prevent him from getting hit, but did prevent him from getting killed, though he did take some stun.

 

Which is the biggest difference between DnD and HERO - armor won't prevent you from getting hit, just killed. Like it should.

 

 

2- Combat Skill Levels with Attack Spells are the wizards friend. So is just a plain old high DEX Score if he wants to spend the points on it.

 

3 - if you don't want armor (like a leather vest) to stop magic, either put a Limitation on all armor "Doesn't protect against magic" or an Advantage on spells such as No Normal Defense or Attack Vs Limited Defense.

 

Personally, in the end a magic spell still inflicts some form of force trauma (lightning, fire, ice) and armor should still protect against it. In My Opinion.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: New to HERO

 

G-A are you following me?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: New to HERO

 

tomasina, you may benefit from some of these online FAQ: http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/effects.htm

[tomasina]

Re: New to HERO

 

Thanks... the idea that armor is meant to protect against damage... and not protect against being hit makes sense.

 

I am still confused by the statement that armor is not added to DCV (which must be overcome by the attack roll). Page 91 of the SideKick book states that the Base DCV = Dex/3, it then includes a DCV checklist which states:

 

1 - Determine the base DCV (characters DEX/3)

2 - Add any applicable Combat Skill Leves which the character wishes to use to increase his DCV

3 - Apply any modifiers for the particular weapon, armor, or shield being used

4 - Apply any modifiers for the particular Combat Maneuver or Martial Maneuvar being used

5 - Apply any Combat Modifiers

6 - Apply any other modifiers

7 - Apply any modifiers which halve DVC (or otherwise reduce it by a fraction or percentage). You can only halve DCV once, even if multiple "half DCV" penalties apply.

8 - A characters minimum DCV is 0. Any modifiers affect a characters DCV versus both HTH and ranged attacks.

 

The attack sequence is then spelled out as:

 

1 - Determine the attackers OCV

2 - Determine the targets DCV

3- Attacker makes an attack roll (3D6) and to hit the target, to hit the attacker must roll less than or equal to 11 + attackers OCV - targets DCV)

 

Based on the above (specifically step 3 of the DCV checklist) I was assuming that the armor modifiers were added to the DCV, which must then be overcome by the attack roll. Thus in the example given earlier, I would have thought that Felixes armor (with 7 PD) and natural armor (4 PD) would have been added to his DCV. I now believe that this is incorrect. If so, what modifiers might armor / shields / weapons have that would aid a characters DCV?

 

Thanks,

 

Tomasina

[Lord Liaden]

Re: New to HERO

 

If you look at the prebuilt examples of shields in the "Equipment" section of the rulebook, you'll see that they provide bonuses to the DCV of a character carrying one. These bonuses are based on Combat Skill Levels, which can add to the chance to hit or avoid being hit in various ways. A shield is essentially one or more DCV Combat Skill Levels built with the Power Modifier (specifically, a Power Limitation) Focus, representing that it's an object which can be taken away from its bearer.

[tomasina]

Re: New to HERO

 

Thanks a lot everyone! I have reviewed shields / armor and think I now understand my confussion. I was confusing defence and DCV... I had thought they were the same... I now see that they are very different. While a shield might help improve my DCV... I now understand that most armor acts simply as a defense against damage, while some items (shields) help against being hit, but do not help against damage. This makes entire sense... and is another justification for trying out the HERO system.

 

Thanks everyone... I really appreciate the help! I will post if I have any other questions. I am really shocked how helpful and friendly you all are... quite a change from my experiences on the Wizards of the Coasts boards.

 

Tom

[gojira]

Re: New to HERO

 

Based on the above (specifically step 3 of the DCV checklist) I was assuming that the armor modifiers were added to the DCV' date=' which must then be overcome by the attack roll. Thus in the example given earlier, I would have thought that Felixes armor (with 7 PD) and natural armor (4 PD) would have been added to his DCV. [/quote']

 

This is correct. Do NOT add PD or armor to DCV.

 

I now believe that this is incorrect. If so, what modifiers might armor / shields / weapons have that would aid a characters DCV?

 

Look on the list of Combat Maneuvers. It's got a column for OCV and one for DCV. The DCV column would be used in step three.

 

P. S.: If you look in the equipment section of Sidekick, after the armor, there's a list of Sheilds which modify DCV. That's "armor" which would improve the DCV of the defender. But it's not the Armor Power.

[gojira]

Re: New to HERO

 

Doh! Scooped by LL!

[ghost-angel]

Re: New to HERO

 

Thanks everyone... I really appreciate the help! I will post if I have any other questions. I am really shocked how helpful and friendly you all are... quite a change from my experiences on the Wizards of the Coasts boards.

 

Tom

 

Welcome to the HERO Boards. Trust me when I say we will answer absolutely any question you have, sometimes we'll answer it a lot. And sometimes we'll answer it multiple different ways - all of which will be correct.

 

And if we can't answer a rules question to satisfaction wander on over to Steve's forum and ask him.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: New to HERO

 

Yo. I am THE Lord Captain Thia Halmades. Please pick up next month's issue of Digital HERO where I cover the whole Hit Point/BODY & STUN thing in depth, among other topics. The first in a series of articles about converting from d20 to HERO - in plain English. But before the main show, we have a couple of opening acts.

 

Today's stars are Armor & DCV! Come out guys, put your hands together for 'em folks! Great, great that's really great.

 

So, Armor, I understand you've changed dramatically from your stint over at d20, is that right?

 

"That's right, Thia. In d20, I reduce your chances of getting hit; in HERO, I reduce the damage you take. I have more numbers than I used too, though."

 

Really? Tell us more!

 

"Well, in HERO there are two primary types of defense; Physical Defense, or "PD" and Energy Defense, "ED." Either of these can also be made resistant, which is how they protect you from Killing Attack damage. Then they're noted as rPD and rED."

 

Wow, that's fascinating. So how would a normal suit of plate mail protect from, say, a Fireball?

 

"That depends on the design you're looking for -- in many Fantasy HERO games, when I take the form of a regular suit of armor, I'm counted as full strength for physical attack, but only half strength for energy attacks - if I were, say, a Chain Mail Shirt, I would be listed as: 4 rPD/2 rED, denoting that I'm less effective against magick. What that really means, mechanically, is that I'll help you soak some of the STUN, but you'll still be exposed."

 

That's all we have time for today, folks! Tune in tomorrow when we interview DCV, and introduce a special guest star, OCV! Thank you and good night!

[Corven_Ren]

Re: New to HERO

 

Welcome to Hero tomasina, kick off your shoes and stay a while. Everyone is real nice round here and no one bites.much and they just nibble but you will finds lots of helpful Herophiles

[SteveZilla]

Re: New to HERO

 

1. How good someone is at hitting a target is their OCV.

2. How good someone is at avoiding being a target is their DCV.

3. Once a target is hit, roll the effect of the power used (like damage).

4. This effect/damage is applied to any applicable defenses vs that damage the target has (like the power Armor, their own PD or ED, etc.)

5. The remainder, if any, is what effect/damage is successfully dealt.

 

Hero realizes that there is a difference between hitting someone, and successfully doing damage to them. Thus, it's possible to be good at hitting, but be poor at doing damage, and also visa-versa.

 

One of the key elements of Hero System is that the Special Effects of a power are divested from the mechanics of a power. This means that Powers in the book don't have an associated "this is what it looks like" (i.e., Special Effects). The power, Ranged Killing Attack, works in a specific, mechanical way as listed in the book. Whether it is a Supervillain's Omega Beams, a policeman's bullets from his gun, or a shot from a Futuristic Laser Pistol, or an arrow from a bow makes no difference (with exceptions*).

 

*The exceptions are if you modify the power by applying Advantages and/or Limitations to it. For example, a regular bullet might be just a RKA, but a Teflon-coated bullet might be a RKA with the Armor Piercing Advantage.

 

Advantages make a power better in some way, but at the same time they make it cost more. Limitations limit a power in some way, and thus make it cost less.

 

Also, IMO, the "basic" system of Hero has very little "absolutes", whereas D&D is chock full of them. This is another reason why you have to roll to hit with spells in Hero -- they aren't absolutes like they often are in D&D.

 

Spells are just certain Powers, usually with Advantages and Limitations, with "Magic" as part of the power's Special Effects. A Fireball Spell? Often that's built at it's core as: Ranged Killing Attack + Explosion. Explosion is an Advantage that is pretty much what it says. It makes an attack power that normally only affects one target into one that affects an area, and with decreasing effect the further from the center you go.

 

Clear as mud now?

[radioKAOS]

Re: New to HERO

 

Welcome Tomasina.

 

Tis true that the biggest obstacle you're likely to find is the fact the the Special effect of a power is divorced from the actual power.

 

Every power you can think of [from a sword to a spell to any godly power - everything basically is a 'power'] will be able to be made in many different ways.

 

You can ask for a sample build of just about anything you can possibly think of, and the HEROphiles will come up with many different ways of representing what you'd like to do with the rules in the book. 5th Edition Revised [5ER] is the ruleset that will usually be used/quoted. It's referred to as a 'toolkit' game being that you can customize and tailor each and every rule to your own liking. You never have to be a slave to the way any other game works again - you can make it work the way you want it to.

 

Seriously, think of a power and ask for a build, you'll be amazed at the diversity and incredible imaginations of the folks here on these boards.

[Trebuchet]

Re: New to HERO

 

I am still confused by the statement that armor is not added to DCV (which must be overcome by the attack roll). Page 91 of the SideKick book states that the Base DCV = Dex/3, it then includes a DCV checklist which states:

 

The attack sequence is then spelled out as:

 

1 - Determine the base DCV (characters DEX/3)

2 - Add any applicable Combat Skill Leves which the character wishes to use to increase his DCV

3 - Apply any modifiers for the particular weapon, armor, or shield being used

4 - Apply any modifiers for the particular Combat Maneuver or Martial Maneuver being used

5 - Apply any Combat Modifiers

6 - Apply any other modifiers

7 - Apply any modifiers which halve DVC (or otherwise reduce it by a fraction or percentage). You can only halve DCV once, even if multiple "half DCV" penalties apply.

8 - A characters minimum DCV is 0. Any modifiers affect a characters DCV versus both HTH and ranged attacks.

 

Based on the above (specifically step 3 of the DCV checklist) I was assuming that the armor modifiers were added to the DCV, which must then be overcome by the attack roll. Thus in the example given earlier, I would have thought that Felixes armor (with 7 PD) and natural armor (4 PD) would have been added to his DCV. I now believe that this is incorrect. If so, what modifiers might armor / shields / weapons have that would aid a characters DCV?

In HERO it is possible to build weapons or defenses which improve OCV and/or DCV by buying Skills as Powers. This is not, however, the default method; it's only if that particular Combat Skill Level is purchased when the character is built or modified with XP. In other words, a set of armor could be made which provides +2 DCV by buying it with 2 Combat Skill Levels alongside the points of Armor (Power) it has to reduce damage and any other abilities it may possess. This is usually bought as a Focus to reduce cost.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: New to HERO

 

It's also possible if you use the Encumberance rules that heavy armor can actually decrease your DCV, making you easier to hit even while it protects you from the damage of those hits.

[Eosin]

Re: New to HERO

 

My favorite "ditty" for explaining most of Hero Combat was done by the ever marvelous and productive Killer Shrike. Take a read - it should be mandatory.

 

PS - Welcome to the Hero System. Ask questions. You'll be amazed at the variety of answers.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: New to HERO

 

Didnt read thru the thread -- in a bit of a hurry -- but

 

a) Defense as in ARMOR (or some other form of damage mitigation) has nothing to do with to hit rolls -- you are thinking of Defensive Combat Value (DCV) which is an indication of how hard a character is to HIT rather than how hard they are to HURT.

 

If you are coming from D&D to the HERO System you might find my extensive D&D 3e to HERO System Conversion useful....

[MorpheousXO]

Re: New to HERO

 

Yes, I highly recomend Killer Shrikes entire website, especially his High Fantasy HERO section since it is what you're looking to mimic.

 

Interestingly, Thia, you made me think of something I hadn't thought of before... redefining the SFX of ED into Magic, making it that non magic damage works against PD, and Magic against ED. I like that much better for D&D HERO, and will ponder on this some more.

 

Now, hopfully Toma comes back and realizes people are still replying to his thread.