Historical Nexus Points

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Heh. Make it happen just four hours later' date=' when instead of the trajectory intersecting Earth's surface over Siberia, it intersects it at St. Petersburg. The Czarist government of Russia is decapitated, but not by the Bolsheviks, and the Russian Empire disintegrates 85 years early.[/quote']

 

Or a few hours earlier, when instead of hitting a virtually unpopulated area, it

would have hit New York City -- specifically, Manhattan Island. I saw a pict-

ure in a book once about the Tunguska Event showing what it would've looked

like had the Tunguska Object hit NYC: everything on Manhattan Island would

have been flattened or incinerated, and the coastal areas would also have

been damaged as well. Not surprising, considering that the estimated energy

released in the Tunguska Event was somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5

megatons.

 

But enough of that. Here's my suggestion for a nexus point:

 

The Roanoke Colony doesn't vanish without a trace; instead it thrives

very well indeed with the friendship and help of the local Indian tribes.

 

 

Major Tom

[Warpcore Breach]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Geez! You guys rock hard! Now I just need to decide which of these fantastic ideas to use. I had no idea what resources were out here.

[Basil]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

President Reagan is killed March 31, 1981 (not merely wounded). Veep Bush takes over, is defeated in 1984.

[Basil]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Jack Ruby misses, Oswald has his "day in court," the truth about the Kennedy assassination is revealed.

 

The GM gets to decide what that truth is.

[Pariah]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

On October 14th, 2003, Steve Bartman gets a case of food poisoning. He decides not to go to that night's NCLS Game 6. Moises Alou makes the routine catch, and the Chicago Cubs win the game and go on to beat the Yankees four games to two.

 

 

The Cubs win the World Series---which signals the end of Western civilization.

[novi]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

April 1861 - Robert E Lee, despite his great love for his home state of Virginia, decides that preserving the Union is more important, and doesn't resign from the US Army. By the end of 1862, Richmond has been seized, the legitamacy of the Confederacy destroyed, and any remaining fighting is just mooping up.

 

Without a long, bloody Civil War, Reconstruction is a much different event. Also, ending slavery has not become the major goal of the war, so slavery will continue, at least for a while.

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

December 7th, 1941: A surprise attack by Communist Russian forces on the

Japanese islands brings the U.S. into WWII on Japan's side against the Axis

powers -- Germany, Italy, and Russia. France allies with the Axis, allowing

it to retain much of its sovereignty. England and the rest of the free world

ally themselves with Japan and the U.S.

 

The war lasts until 1948, when the Allied forces deploy weaponry reverse-

engineered from alien technology recovered from the wreckage of a crashed

extraterrestial spacecraft. Berlin and Moscow are obliterated by plasma war-

head-tipped intercontinental ballistic missiles, while Paris and Rome are spare-

ed (Paris because its pro-Axis government was overthrown by an anti-fascist

resistance movement with Allied support, and Rome for cultural and religious

reasons). The majority of the Axis' military and political leaders are tried as

war criminals in proceedings held in neutral Switzerland, with a tribunal of

judges from other neutral countries presiding over the trial. With few except-

ions, those tried and convicted of war crimes are executed in accordance

with the laws of the nations where the crimes were committed.

 

After many years spent carrying out the post-war task of reconstruction, a

few of the Allied nations -- notably England, Japan, and the U.S. -- lay the

political foundations for what will eventually become known as the United

Nations.

 

 

Major Tom

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

I had a solo player game that I ran once that didn't make it to the main plot - which was that the PC had to go back and prevent interference - someone had gone back and prevented the JFK assassination' date=' and the world went to hell without a handbasket. That was the world the PC started in. He had to go back and ensure that JFK [i']was[/i] assassinated. I planned to set things up so that he pulled the trigger.

 

 

I can just see the look on a player's face when he gets this bit of news:

 

"Guess what? You're the guy hidden on the grassy knoll!"

 

 

Major Tom

[assault]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

December 7th' date=' 1941: A surprise attack by Communist Russian forces on the Japanese islands brings the U.S. into WWII on Japan's side against the Axis powers -- Germany, Italy, and Russia. France allies with the Axis, allowing it to retain much of its sovereignty. England and the rest of the free world ally themselves with Japan and the U.S. [/quote']

 

While an interesting situation, I don't see it as a true nexus point. The "real" nexus point would have been where this timeline diverged from ours so as to allow all the stuff you described to happen.

 

Incidentally, you could make this work. The Vichy French might have declared war on Britain, the Soviet Union did fight a series of border conflicts with Japan that might have escalated, and Germany might not have decided to invade the USSR until after Britain was defeated. All of these were possible.

 

Mind you... the bit about the US allying to Japan seems highly unlikely. That is where the true nexus point would come in, IMHO.

[wcw43921]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Here's another nexus point--The Titanic, an hour or two before the collision. Duck into the wheel house when no one's looking, and alter the course about five degrees south.

 

Perhaps it misses the iceberg entirely, and makes it safely to New York. Or it crashes into a different iceberg or suffers another mishap. Either way, you've changed history--people who died before get to live, or (in the latter occurrence) someone who lived before dies this time.

 

That's closer to what you're looking for, I think.

[death tribble]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

But enough of that. Here's my suggestion for a nexus point:

 

The Roanoke Colony doesn't vanish without a trace; instead it thrives

very well indeed with the friendship and help of the local Indian tribes.

 

 

Major Tom

 

There was a book out recently that showed that the colony did not vanish but people packed up and moved. So it never truely went away. Your idea though is a nexus.

[Vondy]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

You might consider reading To Say Nothing of the Dog by Connie Willis. And odd, but amusing, book about time-travel. It discusses how the "temporal system" defends itself from paradox at several points - and therefore mentions several critical events that you might use. Two that come immediately to mind are the bombing of Coventry during WWII, and the capture of King Louis during the French Revolution. In the first case, Enigma broke the code and warned the military, but they didn't listen and put their fighters up over London instead. If they had listened it probably would have revealed to the Nazis that their code was broken and altered the course of the war. In the latter, King Louis asked for directions from a peasant and rewarded him with a banknote - adorned with the king's picture. It ultimately led to his capture and death. What if the PCs stole the banknote and left coins instead? Or mugged the peasant and kept him quiet, allowing the king to reach the loyalists and form an army? Etc. Etc. Etc. Its often the little things that can make a huge difference on the course of history. What if the players dressed up like a road crew and diverted Archduke Ferdinand's vehicle on the fateful June day, leading his motorcade away from Gavrilo Princep? No world wars?

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Turkey remains neutral in World War I. This enables the Allies to ship men and supplies easily to the Russians who defeat the German and Austro-Hungarian forces in Eastern Europe and the Balkans. Neither of the Russian revolutions occurs and Russia gradually evolves into a constitutional monarchy.

 

There is a very interesting book that mentions this possibility, called 'The Ship That Changed The World' by Dan Van Der Wat. It also provides what could be the pivotal event.

 

At the outbreak of ww1, Germany had two warships in the Mediterranean, the Goeben and the Breslau. They were somewhat grandiosely called 'the Mediterranean Squadron'. and were more than outgunned by the French and British forces.

 

Anyhow, when war broke out, they were well and truly trapped, and were ordered to make a dash for the then-neutral Ottoman Empire. The British and French naval commands made several astounding blunders so, despite mechanical problems, the two German ships made it to Ottoman waters where they and their crews were politely detained.

 

It is worth noting that Germany already had a fair amount of influence within the Ottoman Empire. The eventual presentation of these two modern warships (and their crews) to the Ottomans formed part of the inducement for them declaring war on their traditional Russian foes (and, by extension, the British and French). Goeben and Breslau spent much of the war in the Black Sea, making the Russian fleet there look like total ninnies.

 

(Worth noting here that Goeben survived the war and remained in Ottoman / Turkish naval service until 1950, and wasn't finally scrapped until the 1970s!)

 

(It is ALSO worth noting that amongst the crew of the Goeben and Breslau was a very young Leutnant named Karl Doenitz)

 

Indications are that the Ottoman entry prolonged ww1 by as much as two years. It cut off the main supply line between Russia and the West, with all the problems that this also entailed. It certainly sped up the end of the Ottoman Empire, with its holdings in the Middle East and North Africa being split up willy-nilly amongst the victors at war's end.

 

So, arrange for something to happen. Maybe the two ships unexpectedly hit "mines" and sink during their initial run, or the British and French naval commands actually get something right.

 

Therefore, the Ottoman entry into the war is delayed, possibly just long enough to reconsider the whole idea. Germany and its (other) allies are forced to make peace circa 1916 (and thus kill off the notion altogether). Russia's destabilization is delayed, as is the Ottoman Empire's break-up. The punitive and downright savage requirements of the Treaty of Versailles in 1918 are lessened (or completely avoided), therefore Germany does NOT become a total basket case in the 1920s, opening the way for Hitler and the Nazis to take over.

 

(Implication: No ww2 as we know it. One semi-valid school of thought has it that ww1 and ww2 were in fact one conflict with a LONG cease-fire in the middle. In this timeline, it doesn't happen - at least, not as we know it.)

 

The Middle East has a chance to be less messed up in terms of borders and displaced / split ethnic groups than in reality. Millions of lives and vast quantities of resources and wealth squandered in the war and its aftermath are preserved.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Other possibilities:

 

(1) Vladimir Ilych Lenin lives in reasonable health for somewhat longer than he did historically. It is often held that, towards the end of his life, he was starting to REALLY distrust / dislike this Georgian called 'Stalin', but was too durn sick to do much about it. If Lenin had lived for longer, he might have been able to do something more decisive. Which could have benefitted the USSR tremendously, all things considered.

 

(2) Mao Tse-Tung successfully allies with the West. Supposedly, he was looking at this possibility to help modernize China during the late 1940s. The only other alternative was Stalin, who could be trusted about as far as he could spit. Which means that the Korean and Vietnam Wars would have been very very different, IF they occurred at all.

[Vondy]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Other possibilities:

 

(2) Mao Tse-Tung successfully allies with the West. Supposedly, he was looking at this possibility to help modernize China during the late 1940s. The only other alternative was Stalin, who could be trusted about as far as he could spit. Which means that the Korean and Vietnam Wars would have been very very different, IF they occurred at all.

 

A related alternative: The UN doesn't give China's permanent security council seat (and all that entails) to the communists, but leaves it in Chang Hai Shek's hands. Taiwan would be a recognized member state today, and the geopolitics of Asia would have evolved differently.

[Cancer]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

A related alternative: The UN doesn't give China's permanent security council seat (and all that entails) to the communists' date=' but leaves it in Chang Hai Shek's hands. Taiwan would be a recognized member state today, and the geopolitics of Asia would have evolved differently.[/quote']

 

?? Taiwan held that seat until 1971, when it was given to the PRC. So what you suggest is what really happened....

 

(... which leads to the interesting concept ... suppose one or more posters here are from alternate timelines? ... Or cast that into a RPG campaign, where advisors and advisees, who never meet FtF, are in different timelines, neither realizing it ... at first.)

[Warpcore Breach]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

OK which of you were a designer on the Chrononauts card game?

[RPMiller]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

THAT GAME ROCKS!

 

A buddy of mine introduced us to the game one weekend. I think we played it about 3 or 4 times in that one sitting. Very interesting game dynamics to be sure.

[Cancer]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

I've played it a couple times, but don't own it. Very interesting.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Here's some ideas regarding Civil War leaders. If I get time, I may post more.

 

*Removing Lincoln before he became President would have had a profound effect, because none of the other candidates had either broad support of the people or the character and will necessary to ride out the War - the South would likely been able to sue for peace.

*Removing Johnson before Lincoln assassination might not have had that much effect; although Johnson's incompetence made things difficult after the War, the only other prominent Southern War Democrat was Joseph Holt, who probably wouldn't have fare much better. If someone were to maneuver Butler or Stanton into the VP spot for 1864, things might have proceeded much more smoothly.

*Taking out Grant during the war would have been disastrous; for all his lack of subtlety, he understood that a Civil War is fundamentally a political operation and acted accordingly. Taking him out before he became President, however, might have prevented the Compromise of 1877 and the subsequent disastrous set-back of Civil Rights that took a century to repair.

*Removing Jackson wouldn't have made that big a difference, in my opinion - he was a worthwhile divisional commander but he made a mediocre field general at best. Notably, he was often lackadasical in his maneuvering and was on more than one occasion wildly out of position, complicating his commander's situation, for no reason other than that he was apparently in no hurry to get there.

*Taking out Thomas on the Union side might have spelled defeat at Chickamauga, but in the Tennessee Campaign pretty much anyone could have beaten Hood - he more or less destroyed himself.

*The Confederates didn't actually have very competent generals overall (which is why they kept shuffling them back and forth, hoping one of them would find an assignment he couldn't screw up), so taking pretty much any of them out would have limited effect.

*Interestingly, removing Barlow might have delayed Appomattox by a few days, but would have had more far reaching effects later - it was Barlow who, as New York's District Attorney, shut down Boss Tweed's political machine in one of the first major corruption cases.

[Cancer]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Actually, there are interesting speculations the other way, too. If Albert Sidney Johnston had not been killed at Shiloh, might he have been the brilliant commander who prevented the Union from winning in the West?

[Basil]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Daniel Webster is killed in an accident in early 1840. He does not, with a combination of stirring oratory and hard-nosed back-room wheeling&dealing, push through the compromise of 1840; South Carolina passes an Act of Seccession and is followed by most of the "deep south."

 

The USA falls apart with only some squabbling and a bit of rancor; there is no war and only a few "incidents" over various unclear borders and such like. Slavery continues in the south until its economy collapses, leaving The Confederate States one of the poorest and most backward countries on earth. The north, on the other hand, blossoms into the most industrial nation on earth, by circa 1870-1880 passing England and Germany, but soon becomes a net importer of food and fabric.

 

Also, the USA lacks manpower to rapidly expand across the continent, and England retains the entire Oregon Territory while Mexico manages to hold onto the southwest. The USA never gets its outlet on the Pacific, thus becoming completely Euro-centric and leaving Japan to its isolationism, which it doesn't come out of until well into the 20th century.

 

 

 

Though it's not well known, the USA did in fact nearly split over the question of slavery in 1840; a split, mind you, that many in the north would have been quite happy with. It took Daniel Webster, one of the most influential men of the time, to keep the union together---but the compromise worked out then led inevitably to war in 1864.

[RPMiller]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Have a great resource for you!

 

Look for the book "The Collected What If?" - Eminent historians Imagine What Might Have Been. ISBN 0-399-15238-5

 

It contains 45 Nexus Points along with maps and illustrations. Events go from 701 BC through 1940's with a couple in modern times as well regarding the cold war.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

Another thought from another book. 'Hitler & Stalin - Parallel Lives' by Allan Bullock. Comparitive biographies of Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin.

 

Strange but absolutely true. There was a period of a few weeks when both men actually lived in the same city. It was Vienna, some time in the 1920s ( book gives the exact period, but I cannot find the entry just now), well before either became (in)famous.

 

Adolf was a street artist, Josef was part of a delegation at some international conference. There is no indication that the two ever met - Vienna was and still is a fair-sized city, and they moved in entirely different circles. But, as the book itself says, it is fascinating to picture how Hitler and Stalin could have unknowingly brushed shoulders on a busy street or some such thing.

 

Plus, if one brings alternate histories into the mix, to quote the great philosopher: "That do raise some mind-boggling possibilities, don't it?"

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Historical Nexus Points

 

WHAT IF ...

 

• Julius Caesar had not been assassinated?
  
• Napoleon's reinforcements at Waterloo had heard his signaling and arrived on time -- or the Prussians had failed to arrive at all? Or if Napoleon hadn't died so (suspiciously) early?
  
• Robert E. Lee had stronger loyalty to the United States instead of the State of Virginia, and sided with the Union instead of the Confederacy? (Don't laugh; a lot of ideas entrenched in the US military were overthrown by this war, and a lot of technology was advanced. Lee would've been Lincoln's first choice to lead the Army of the Potomac, and might've ended the American Civil War inside three months.)
  
• Karl Marx had been capitalist, or at least socialist, instead of creating full-on communism?
  
• Chiang Kai-Shek had NOT failed to eradicate the Sino-Communist forces, including Mao Tse-Tung?
  

 

A few ideas...