Converting Players to HERO

[Spence]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

My friends and I played D&D for about three or four years, can't remember. My friend suggested trying a different game, maybe a science fiction based one. I went to the local gaming store and picked it up, 5th Edition Revised. I thumbed through the massive tome, already impressed by the breakdown of characteristics, skills, and powers. Then I went to the beginning and read the intro and it was like an epiphany (I swear there were shafts of light from heaven, yes inside the store even). I then went on a trip for business and took it with me to read. It took a while, but I read every page. Yes, the "barrier to entry" is quite large, but a GM with the will can do it. Unfortunately, to this day, my players still get confused about a lot of things. I'm baffled by this as they are all engineers and computer science majors, but I manager to retrain them for every session.

 

HERO brings such consistency to all possible genres of campaigns. It's easy to see how a Fantasy Hero character brought into modern era would fit in (and not fit in). A Cyberpunk sent back in time to mingle with pirates? No problem, HERO can deal with it. And HERO does it in such a way that seems realistic, even in settings that normally aren't.

 

Exactly, I'm in 100% agreement.

 

I guess that is why I think finding a way to cut down that entry barrier is a worthy goal which hasn't been really explored yet.

[gojira]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

... Then I went to the beginning and read the intro and it was like an epiphany (I swear there were shafts of light from heaven' date=' yes inside the store even)....[/quote']

 

 

It's an old building... they really need to fix that hole in the roof.

 

 

[BNakagawa]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Back in the day, and by that, I mean before the internet, the way HERO overcame the steep barrier to entry was to hand prospective new players character sheets of popular characters.

 

The first introductory sessions featured the X-Men, Alpha Flight, Teen Titans and so on.

 

They just lined up and teed off on eachother. No plot, no roleplay, just fight. (although the Xmen and Alpha flight had tussled in comics before)

 

Everyone loved it and nearly everyone bought Champions.

 

No reason you can't do it at a con. Just tailor the handouts to the con.

 

Write up Ghost Rider, write up Hellboy, write up the Incredibles and so on.

 

Don't worry about the role playing, they can figure that out on their own.

[gojira]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Back in the day, and by that, I mean before the internet, the way HERO overcame the steep barrier to entry was to hand prospective new players character sheets of popular characters.

 

The first introductory sessions featured the X-Men, Alpha Flight, Teen Titans and so on.

 

They just lined up and teed off on eachother. No plot, no roleplay, just fight. (although the Xmen and Alpha flight had tussled in comics before)

 

Everyone loved it and nearly everyone bought Champions.

 

No reason you can't do it at a con. Just tailor the handouts to the con.

 

Write up Ghost Rider, write up Hellboy, write up the Incredibles and so on.

 

Don't worry about the role playing, they can figure that out on their own.

 

Totally agree here.

 

Back in the day, before Hero Designer and before free spread sheets where readily available, the best way to build a character was to flip through Enemies II or something and steal ideas and builds. The supers in the back of the main book, which had both hero and villain options, were also great.

 

I really miss the plethora of characters that used to be readily available for Hero.

[Silbeg]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Hero has a steep "barrier to entry" and that is its greatest weakness. I agree that it pays off in the long run, but that barrier self-selects a certain kind of player... a limited demographic, IMO.

 

I also don't think there would be half the long term players if the game hadn't started as a nice, thin, straight forward Supers game. All the complexity that has built up over the ages just exacerbates the barrier to entry. It isn't easy to see the consistent, ultra-functional core mechanics for all mud and crunch on top.

 

I don't know if I agree with this, Neil.

 

In fact, it has been my experience at running convention games, that HERO can be rather simple to learn, or at least no more difficult than any other system.

 

In fact, I ran a game (last Sunday) where the characters were agents in the Champions Universe (or a reasonable facsimile). One of the players had never played HERO before, but with only a little explaination of some basics (most rolls are 3d6, etc...) she picked it up pretty quickly. Now, maybe the average convention-gamer is more savvy than the average RPGer, I don't know.

 

Now, the charGen in HERO is probably the biggest hurdle, but a good GM can coach a player through that. In fact, I have GM'd players that never create their own characters (though they may modify them, with xp, etc, as the game goes on). They give me the concept, and we work through the details.

 

However, I think that there is definitely a perception out there that HERO is significantly more complicated than other systems (such as D20). To that, I would say that it rolling D20 + bonus > DC is no simpler or harder than rolling 3d6 under a target (such as skill, or 11 + OCV - DCV).

 

GMing HERO may be more difficult, as it takes some experience (especially in a Supers game) to decode whether certain constructs are "ba-roken" or not.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I would definitely argue that it's more of a problem of perception than one of actual difficulty. Not that I have a lot of experience to base it on, but I figured it out, and I'm no genius. Once I realized how consistent everything was, the rest of it fell into place for me, and I wasn't even actively trying to learn the system. (Josh had been putting my characters together for me back then.)

 

Granted, I'm sure Hero Designer makes things a lot easier, but if lazy little me can figure it out, it can't be THAT hard.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Maybe we should try bribing new players.

 

http://www.mymms.com/home/index.asp

 

Can you imagine custom green and grey m&m's with the back printed with "Are you A HERO?"?

 

The minimum order of 20 ~$100 is the only downside.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Hero has a steep "barrier to entry" and that is its greatest weakness. I agree that it pays off in the long run, but that barrier self-selects a certain kind of player... a limited demographic, IMO.

 

I also don't think there would be half the long term players if the game hadn't started as a nice, thin, straight forward Supers game. All the complexity that has built up over the ages just exacerbates the barrier to entry. It isn't easy to see the consistent, ultra-functional core mechanics for all mud and crunch on top.

 

Whilst I agree with this I think that it is easily solved.

 

IMO the mechanics of Hero are no more complex than any other system and a good deal more intuitive than most - we don't need took up tables and whatnot - you can work out everything you need to know from the charactersheet and a few simple rules (divide by 5 and add 9 or divide by 3).

 

In fact I have noticed over the years how many games - including the mighty dnd - seem to be developing some very Hero-like ideas. It must be parallel evolution - couldn't possibly be anything else really

 

The damage system is easy enough to use and as realistic as it needs to be. getting 2 results fdrom one roll is really not that difficult to master.

 

Skills are easy - straight 3d6 roll against your skill.

 

The 'roll low is good' thing confuses some but I doubt that is actually a barrier to entry....so what is?

 

Character generation and the character sheet.

 

It is half of a BIG, and very no-nonsense (almost wargame-y with the hex grid so prominent on the front) book, whereas a lot of other systems you only need a couple of pages to cover character generation, and even if there is more you rarely need to know all of it.

 

It requires the application of thought and a reasonably thorough knowledge of the rules to make a decent character - most systems just take you through a random roll flowchart.

 

We have a charactersheet with 14 characteristics on it. No other game has that. That can be scary for those used to the 'BIG 6'.

 

The intimidating thing is that it LOOKS complicated and that we don't have a random roll up system for newbies in the core book.

 

So, what can we do?

 

Well, first off, read the book, and learn the character generation rules so well you don't need to refer to it much. Keep the book hidden when enticing new players into your web. You can hit them with it later, literally, if they look like they might be making a break for it.

 

DO NOT TELL THEM: Hero is a system where you can be anyone and do anything. That way lies only pain and madness. Suggest things they might like to be - standard archetypes - they are standard for a reason, and given infinite choice, most players will feel the need to stretch their imagination and often come up with a difficult or impractical build that can be hard to play well.

 

Introduce the ideas in stages: DO NOT write out the full build on their character sheets with all the advantages and limitations - it just looks freaky, and they are not going to realise how clever you've been to engineer the power just so. Think up a good name for the power, put the total spent points next to it and a little piece of PROSE beneath telling them what it can do.

 

Tell them 'The game is easy to play - it is all based on d6, 3 of them to determine tasks and often handfuls to determine outcomes; see, easy'. Psycholgy plays its part - if they go IN thinking it is easy they might well maintain that attitude and approach until they are confident enough that it really is.

 

PLAN your first few games carefully and in a linear fashion - DO NOT launch into a 23 strand uberplot which showcases and highlights every rule in the book. Start simple - a few goons with basic weapons, no funny stuff, that the PCs will whup - then there is no pressure to win that first fight, or at least no real liklihood of losing - and you don't need to introduce power defence and flash defence and lack of weakness and whatnot at this stage.

 

TAKE YOUR PLAYERS THROUGH COMBAT - it would be good to have a little crib sheet with you with numbered stages. I KNOW that YOU KNOW how it goes - but the experienced player often cuts corners and that is not what we want here. Frankly DnD combat is much more complex than Hero, with all of its attacks of opportunity and five foot steps and so on - Hero is actually more freeform and a lot LESS wargame-y!

 

My tongue is only half way into my cheek here: I do think that a lot of the trepidation that players feel about Hero is all about appearance, and that IS something we can work on.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Maybe we should try bribing new players.

 

http://www.mymms.com/home/index.asp

 

Can you imagine custom green and grey m&m's with the back printed with "Are you A HERO?"?

 

The minimum order of 20 ~$100 is the only downside.

 

Nice idea but can I suggest that threatening them is cheaper

[Sean Waters]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Nice idea but can I suggest that threatening them is cheaper

 

(although how you threaten someone with a M&M I'm not sure....)

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I shall throw this M&M in your mother's general direction!

[Spence]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I think some of us are talking past each other. Ignore me if I'm the one out in left field

 

Hero System is actually two distinct parts. Character Generation and Play.

 

The Good:

 

The Play part is easy and straight forward. IMO much easier that many games, and definitely easier than D20 systems. Everything you need is on the character/vehicle/base sheets will virtually no need to "look up" anything.

 

The Bad:

 

Character Generation. (Or base, or vehicle, etc.). While not "hard", it is extremely detailed and requires a completely different approach and method than most other RPG systems. It has no built in safe guards, requirements or constraints relating to "what you can do" or "what is allowed" for concept or design. Without some kind of guidance, newly exposed players flounder and sink because there are too many options available and they cannot find a direction.

 

So when some of us say Hero has a step entry curve, we generally mean from the character/NPC/vehicle/base creation aspect. Not the actual in game play aspect.

 

Clear as mud, huh?

[gojira]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Yes, it seems like getting people to play is easy enough if there is a dedicated GM who can ease the process.

 

What is needed is, I think, a publication that can do the same for anyone. Sidekick does this. But it's a little under marketed right now. I'm hoping that some future all-in-one products like Luche Libre help popularize the system.

[Spence]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Yes, it seems like getting people to play is easy enough if there is a dedicated GM who can ease the process.

 

What is needed is, I think, a publication that can do the same for anyone. Sidekick does this. But it's a little under marketed right now. I'm hoping that some future all-in-one products like Luche Libre help popularize the system.

 

I hope the upcoming Character Creation Handbook will tackle the issue.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I hope the upcoming Character Creation Handbook will tackle the issue.

 

....and at only 723 pages, an easy evening's read....

[RDU Neil]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I think some of us are talking past each other. Ignore me if I'm the one out in left field

 

Hero System is actually two distinct parts. Character Generation and Play.

 

The Good:

 

The Play part is easy and straight forward. IMO much easier that many games, and definitely easier than D20 systems. Everything you need is on the character/vehicle/base sheets will virtually no need to "look up" anything.

 

The Bad:

 

Character Generation. (Or base, or vehicle, etc.). While not "hard", it is extremely detailed and requires a completely different approach and method than most other RPG systems. It has no built in safe guards, requirements or constraints relating to "what you can do" or "what is allowed" for concept or design. Without some kind of guidance, newly exposed players flounder and sink because there are too many options available and they cannot find a direction.

 

So when some of us say Hero has a step entry curve, we generally mean from the character/NPC/vehicle/base creation aspect. Not the actual in game play aspect.

 

Clear as mud, huh?

 

Absolutely! This is what I'm talking about.

 

Playing Hero is easy. VERY easy, because a new player can be told, "Just describe things in normal terms... we'll translate that into the appropriate Hero rule." They learn through play.

 

I've posted time and again how I think Hero is two games... character creation and actual play. I love the game for its actual play... but the generation piece... especially with the tendency over time of layering on crazy levels of detail in the vain pursuit of a "perfectly modeled character" becomes nightmarish. Made even more so because every person has a different perspective... AND THE GAME ENCOURAGES SUCH... on what a "right build" is.

 

Not only that... but character creation "the game" is fundamentally philosophically a different animal than actual play "the game" in most cases. It is a jarring juxtaposition of play agendas that are supposed to... somehow... create a coherent whole. It can be done... but most often because of a lot of trial and error experience by a relatively coherent play group... and in spite of the system conflict... not because the system encouraged it.

[Silbeg]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Maybe we should try bribing new players.

 

http://www.mymms.com/home/index.asp

 

Can you imagine custom green and grey m&m's with the back printed with "Are you A HERO?"?

 

The minimum order of 20 ~$100 is the only downside.

 

looks like you can get 4 7oz bags for 11.99 each. The ridiculous thing is there appears to be no volume discount. Bastards!

[archermoo]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

....and at only 723 pages' date=' an easy evening's read....[/quote']

 

According to Steve (or at least my recollection of what he said) it should be MUCH shorter than that. On the level of the Combat Handbook and Equipment Guide.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Following up on what Sean was saying, I agree that new players shouldn't have to see how clever their builds are and whatnot. In that light, here are the character sheets I use in my con/demo games. They give the players all the info they need, but without showing them all the math "under the hood". My players have always seemed to grok them pretty quickly.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Very nice. Repped.

 

Keeping it to a single page is more important than people think, y'know.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Back in the day, and by that, I mean before the internet, the way HERO overcame the steep barrier to entry was to hand prospective new players character sheets of popular characters.

 

The first introductory sessions featured the X-Men, Alpha Flight, Teen Titans and so on.

 

They just lined up and teed off on eachother. No plot, no roleplay, just fight. (although the Xmen and Alpha flight had tussled in comics before)

 

Everyone loved it and nearly everyone bought Champions.

 

No reason you can't do it at a con. Just tailor the handouts to the con.

Yep.

 

That's how I run my "Intro to the Hero System" games at cons - I made a superhero and supervillain team designed to go up against each other and be relatively easy to understand... explain them quickly "Okay, this is Granite, he was a miner who lived through a cave-in and got turned into living granite - he's really strong, really tough, and can leap long distances"... and let them choose with the *idea* of what they can do, without worrying about the mechanics. Then the team gets an all-channels challenge from the supervillains (I use the old animated Superfriends Lex Luthor voice for their leader, 'The Boss'), they develop a plan of attack, and a good old-fashoned super-brawl develops!

 

I've had some good experiences with this. One player was a twelve-year old girl who chose Granite - at one point she did a Move Through on the enemy brick (Dreadnought), just hit, and I described the GMs discretion knockout - "All of his armored joints lock... steam leaks out... the suit relaxes... you know from your training and experience that he's out of the fight." It was very satisfying for her and the other players. Later, she tried the same move against another villain - needed 10- to hit, rolled 11 (during the fight, I explained the various options and got the players familiar with game mechanics that way; all die rolls were done in the open) - I described how Granite's feet made 4" impressions in the concrete slab, *mere inches from either side of the villains face, but missing and leaving him unscathed*.

 

There was good role-playing as well. The Boss was quite impressed with himself - his plans were perfect, if anything went wrong it *must* be someone else's fault. At one point, one of the players (playing 'The Archer') said, "You call *this* a plan??? You couldn't plan a Cub Scout meeting!" The bosses response: (keys microphone) "Okay team, new plan. Everyone attack The Archer!" The Archer spent the next few phases dodging many attacks, but it allowed the rest of the team to get into position and defeat the supervillains. Very heroic!

 

Ahhh........ good times.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

When I brought Champions to my group, none at the time had ever played anything other than D&D. We all learned the methods together, we all worked on each others C's. Not that we built each other C's but we worked on them to understand the system.

 

The group I am playing with now has two of the second group of players I ever played with in my home area. They asked questions, the others helped with getting the idea's of the C. We worked out the different issues with the C's.

 

Now we have two other players that came in around 10 or so years ago, they had the experiance we learned and passed it on. What I see with HERO being the best overall system, is that as others have said, You can do anything with the system.

[Spence]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Following up on what Sean was saying' date=' I agree that new players shouldn't have to see how clever their builds are and whatnot. In that light, here are the character sheets I use in my con/demo games. They give the players all the info they need, but without showing them all the math "under the hood". My players have always seemed to grok them pretty quickly. [/quote']

 

Fantastic sheets. Do you have an export template you would be willing to share?

 

A while back I tried to get across this type thing as a concept and see if someone could make it a export template. But failed miserably in getting it across.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Following up on what Sean was saying' date=' I agree that new players shouldn't have to see how clever their builds are and whatnot. In that light, here are the character sheets I use in my con/demo games. They give the players all the info they need, but without showing them all the math "under the hood". My players have always seemed to grok them pretty quickly. [/quote']

 

They are great - leaving the construction points off really streamlines and simplifies the character sheet and makes it much more instantly comprehensible.

 

I think that there would be real mileage in having a section of 'end-user' character sheets for free download, or even - I don't have HD so maybe it already can do this - a HD option to print a character sheet with out the construction points.

 

The perceived problems of complexity for new players simply would not exist.

[Huxley]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I was a slow and leery convert to the HERO system. Our group played namely D20. We had already spent a good chunk of time learning the ins and outs to the system, so we knew right off hand AoO, Which bonuses applied, etc. And then the person who introduced it to me was coming back to it after playing Champions from way back when, so he was a little sketchy on how the rules had evolved. Plus he was a stickler for situational modifiers, of which he needed to look up in the book to make sure everything was going right. And he had a very complex (though now that I know the game, very useful) character sheet that he had designed in Excel. So, all those factors contributing, it took me awhile to really warm up to the system. Now it's ussually the only game I run.

 

Had I the more streamlined approach that has already been presented here, I probably would have warmed up to the system faster. Before learning the ins and outs of HERO, all I could say was "Yeah, it's flexible, but God, it's homework, and I'm really sick of looking up rules".