Converting Players to HERO

[AliceTheOwl]

Yesterday, at the start of my Fantasy Hero game, a player remarked that she couldn't go back to D&D now; she liked HERO better. Specifically, she likes the magic system.

 

Within the game itself, another player was able to pull off two very interesting moves. First, he came up with a very unique use of an allying dragon's tunneling ability (the dragon hollowed out the ground underneath the camp, then giants tossed boulders until the ground collapsed). Then during the main combat, that same player leapt off his horse to deliver a move-through, gaining himself several PRE bonuses and bonuses to damage for surprising the heck out of his target.

 

It got me wondering whether any of the HERO gamers on this board had similar incidents of having your players realize why you decided to run your game in HERO system, or whether you've had players express a newfound love for the system.

 

I have to admit, I felt a certain sense of pride in hearing the player remark that she prefers HERO. I must be doing something right. ^ v ^

[gojira]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I think it's best to kidnap new players and "retrain" them in remote camps.

 

 

what?

[Sir Ofeelya]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I prefer the "convert or die" approach. Jihad is the only way.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Well, with D20 players I just send them over to the "buying weapons (money or points)" thread and then I've guaranteed that they will never ever consider playing Fantasy Hero. LOL!

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

The new guy in our group has pretty much only played D&D (he's 17 and that is what his dad runs, so it understandable). He had been feeling constrained by it recently, and I had waxed rhapsodic over the versitility of the HERO system. So he wanted to play - and he has really enjoyed it. His parents said that the first few weeks that was all he talked about - HERO.

 

I felt pretty cool at that point.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Yeah, Ive brought many players over to the "dark side" who abandoned other game systems in part or whole in favor of the HERO System.

 

The only problem Ive found is that while many want to play, few want to GM in HERO.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

The only problem Ive found is that while many want to play' date=' few want to GM in HERO.[/quote']

 

Can't we say that about any game system? Always less work to play than to GM.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

It's a good question. I don't have enough experience to give you much of a basis for comparison. I've run a single D&D session, which I felt was difficult and I spent too much time looking up rules in the book (and I killed a PC - oops!), and I've helped GM a play-by-post and have this Fantasy Hero game I'm GMing.

 

One could argue that, with more rules, HERO System is harder to learn in its entirety, and you probably shouldn't GM a game without a good understanding of the rules. But I've found myself a lot more comfortable with HERO System because the core concepts are easy to understand, because it's more flexible by nature (so I won't "break" it by fudging a rule or two as I go along), and because I have a lot more people to talk about the nitty-gritties and the overall game philosophy with. ^ v ^

[Sean Waters]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

FH is far more controllable than DnD: you can set the feel that you want with the rules and campaign guidance. In fact you could have two diffferent FH games that felt like almost entirely different systems.

 

That choice and flexibility is the backbone of what CAN make a Hero game great - but it is never great in and of itself - to make a game great, you need to add a GM who has a clear vision of what the system can do and what they want to do with it.

 

So Yay Hero!

 

AND

 

Yay Alice!

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

^ v ^

 

Thanks.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Can't we say that about any game system? Always less work to play than to GM.

 

In relative terms yes, but for whatever reason would be GM's have repeatedly expressed to me their trepidation about running the HERO System.

 

I think the fact that in the HERO System the GM is expected to have total control over what is and is not in their games to a degree that is far more explicit and far-reaching than in other game systems, is intimidating to some people.

[TheRealVector]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

In relative terms yes, but for whatever reason would be GM's have repeatedly expressed to me their trepidation about running the HERO System.

 

I think the fact that in the HERO System the GM is expected to have total control over what is and is not in their games to a degree that is far more explicit and far-reaching than in other game systems, is intimidating to some people.

 

Good point. Since I love running the Hero system I didn't think of that.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Combine Sean's post above with KAs right there... and you have the best definition of Hero.

 

 

A GM can defined their game as they choose.

 

 

A GM MUST define their game very clearly.

 

 

 

The biggest issue is not that Hero can't do something... it is that it CAN do something... lots and lots of somethings, often which shouldn't be in the same game together. THAT is very intimidating for someone to come into as a GM without lots of Hero experience.

 

 

As to Alice's examples above... those "play experiences" are exactly what I love about Hero and does win over players. The "generic maneuver" aspect of Hero that allows a player to state things like "I leap off my galloping horse to plow into the villain!" and have that be translatable into mechanics that are different in feel than "I slide out of the saddle and use the momentum to run up to the villain drawing my sword" is critical. The player gets to stay immersed while the GM translates. If the play group has that level of trust, Hero is great. (A good GM makes such play seem effortless because of an understanding of the underlying mechanics of the game... but a new GM, realizing how much is up to them to "judge as appropriate" vs. "read the rule" can be very intimidated.)

[Warp9]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Yeah, Ive brought many players over to the "dark side" who abandoned other game systems in part or whole in favor of the HERO System.

 

The only problem Ive found is that while many want to play, few want to GM in HERO.

It always seems strange to me when I hear this sort of thing.

 

I pretty much exclusively GM. And for some reason I often end up in groups where half the group members want to sit in the GM chair. We end up fighting over who will get to be the GM.

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

 

That makes me very jealous. The reason I picked up my game is so that Josh would actually get to PLAY, for once. He was "always a GM, never a player", and it was making him experience a bit of creativity burnout.

[The Monster]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I prefer to GM than play, almost always. I'm just lazy, plus I want others to GM so they can refine their skills (I've spent a fair amount of time introducing people to RPGs and raising them to be GMs, ever since introducing D&D to Lander Hall at UW in 1977). Almost all of my regular group have GMed at least occasionally, at least half of us regularly.

 

The pressure on the GM to define and control is one of the factors that makes Hero seem harder, plus the fact that everyone has to pretty much define everything their character can do - there's no "I'll just play a wizard" (let alone "I'll just play a fighter!").

The big balancing factor IMO is that once you learn the basic mechanics for Hero, the rest is minor details - you don't have to look up class abilities or feats or spell lists every time you use one.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I prefer to GM than play, almost always. I'm just lazy, plus I want others to GM so they can refine their skills (I've spent a fair amount of time introducing people to RPGs and raising them to be GMs, ever since introducing D&D to Lander Hall at UW in 1977). Almost all of my regular group have GMed at least occasionally, at least half of us regularly.

 

The pressure on the GM to define and control is one of the factors that makes Hero seem harder, plus the fact that everyone has to pretty much define everything their character can do - there's no "I'll just play a wizard" (let alone "I'll just play a fighter!").

The big balancing factor IMO is that once you learn the basic mechanics for Hero, the rest is minor details - you don't have to look up class abilities or feats or spell lists every time you use one.

 

 

Hero has a steep "barrier to entry" and that is its greatest weakness. I agree that it pays off in the long run, but that barrier self-selects a certain kind of player... a limited demographic, IMO.

 

I also don't think there would be half the long term players if the game hadn't started as a nice, thin, straight forward Supers game. All the complexity that has built up over the ages just exacerbates the barrier to entry. It isn't easy to see the consistent, ultra-functional core mechanics for all mud and crunch on top.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

What Ive found, and this is as accurate as any gross generalization, is that people that are used to / comfortable dealing in abstractions and have a flexible mind do well with the HERO system, while those who need concretes don't. As all things are magnified while in the GM's chair this becomes more telling.

 

 

The story parts of HERO are the easy part -- since the system can theoretically support just about anything a GM can dream up if they want to take the time to make it do so the GM doesnt have to worry about bending their story to fit the mechanics as is so common when designing sessions for other games.

 

Its the mechanical resolutions where things get difficult for most. There are so many ways to do the same general thing in the HERO System, often with subtle nuances differentiating variant methods and since each character represents a potentially unique combination of game elements that might interact together internally in strange ways, and interact externally in other strange ways, a good deal of being a HERO System GM is dealing with interpretations of concept, intent, mechanical interactions, and SFX which is a hard blend to get perfect every time.

 

I think some people are more comfortable with making judgment calls and moving forward than others are, and like being able to make a decision and backfill the mechanics to suit their preference, and for them the HERO System is a great vehicle to GM in. Others would like more of a safety harness to fall back on rather than have to exercise their own arbitration all the time, or just have to invest less thought and effort into the cruchy bits to focus more on the creative side and for them it is a daunting system to run in.

 

 

Personally I took to GMing the HERO System like a duck to water, but I've come to perceive that most folks don't.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

There is one tiny little gem about Hero System I really enjoy.

 

When I was in college, Saturday night was "D&D Night" and, I thin, Tuesday night was "Shadowrun Night" in the collective circle.

 

But now, it is Via or previously, Sophia's Barbarians. The name of the night is based on the campaign now, not the system. It just shows, again, how much this system truly allows a GM to focus on the game itself and not the rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I think some of the GM issue also arises from the comfort zone, albeit false, that D&D and similar games provide. To run a D&D game, the typical DM commences with having all the character archetypes laid out for him in the form of races, classes, skills, feats and spells. He assumes, perhaps falsely, that they are balanced.

 

He then buys a scenario or two (WOTC; Dungeon magazine or any of the numerous open license publishers) and again assumes that is balanced - rightly or wrongly. The perception is that most of the hard work has been done.

 

Hero doesn't provide that "safety net" feeling - published scenarios are few and far between, and the rules are clear that the GM, not the published rules, will need to enforce the balance. As such, there's a perception (and I've seen it in practice) that it's much easier to GM D&D than Hero.

[Spence]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Hero has a steep "barrier to entry" and that is its greatest weakness. I agree that it pays off in the long run, but that barrier self-selects a certain kind of player... a limited demographic, IMO.

 

I also don't think there would be half the long term players if the game hadn't started as a nice, thin, straight forward Supers game. All the complexity that has built up over the ages just exacerbates the barrier to entry. It isn't easy to see the consistent, ultra-functional core mechanics for all mud and crunch on top.

 

Not to much to say to that. One thing I see as a great opportunity is the "Character Creation Handbook" planned for around Oct 07. The core books and genre books all have info about building PC's in a genre. But not a single Hero book actually tells you how to build a character. I have had more than on person say they couldn't figure out how to build the a first character from the book. While all of the games out there have various levels of complexity in character building with some, IMO, being actually harder because they require the constant reference to a bizzilion mandatory books. But they are almost all easier to start. What I mean is, if you take a game like D&D or the Palladium games. Since they are built on a class/level system it is extremely easy for a new gamer to whip out and character. Pick a class, select a handful of skills/feats/abilities/etc, spend the money and shazam instant character. Now I didn't say it would be a good or viable character. But it is a character and as such allows the new player to understand character creation in a personal sense and give them something to build on for the next ones.

 

In Hero we really don't have this. There are loads of good advice and several finished examples, but nothing showing the thought process used. A real example of the meaning of "power from effect".

 

Now if the CCH isn't just a compilation the information needed for character creation, but contains several step by step examples that narrate not just the points and calculations but the reasoning behind them. That would be great.

 

"Now that we have built Superdudes movement powers, lets move onto offensive powers. Looking back at our concept write up, he has the ability to fire flame blasts from his hands. Just what can they do?" And then show two or three different flame blast builds with the whys and hows, before picking one.

 

I would have 2-3 Supers, 2-3 Fantasy Hero, 1-2 Dark Champs, 1-2 Pulp, 1 Star Hero, 1 Teen Champ, 1 Post Apocalyptic and 1-2 Martial Artist types.

 

These examples would cover enough ground to give a very solid foundation in HeroThink concepts. In the end the buyer would have several complete PC's and a guide to how they were built.

 

Once again, just my 2 cents. But I really do think it would be a great benefit.

[Spence]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

I think some of the GM issue also arises from the comfort zone, albeit false, that D&D and similar games provide. To run a D&D game, the typical DM commences with having all the character archetypes laid out for him in the form of races, classes, skills, feats and spells. He assumes, perhaps falsely, that they are balanced.

 

He then buys a scenario or two (WOTC; Dungeon magazine or any of the numerous open license publishers) and again assumes that is balanced - rightly or wrongly. The perception is that most of the hard work has been done.

 

Hero doesn't provide that "safety net" feeling - published scenarios are few and far between, and the rules are clear that the GM, not the published rules, will need to enforce the balance. As such, there's a perception (and I've seen it in practice) that it's much easier to GM D&D than Hero.

 

Ding ding ding. Give that man a prize

 

That is why I always thought having complete balanced "starter adventure" for each line would be great. Not a huge long campaign. But a one-shot. The Champions one-shot would have the Heroes, the Villains and the scenario plus maps. This would give the new Hero gamer something to use as a benchmark. A starting point.

[phookz]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

...

The core books and genre books all have info about building PC's in a genre. But not a single Hero book actually tells you how to build a character.

...

There are loads of good advice and several finished examples, but nothing showing the thought process used. A real example of the meaning of "power from effect".

...

"Now that we have built Superdudes movement powers, lets move onto offensive powers. Looking back at our concept write up, he has the ability to fire flame blasts from his hands. Just what can they do?" And then show two or three different flame blast builds with the whys and hows, before picking one.

...

I would have 2-3 Supers, 2-3 Fantasy Hero, 1-2 Dark Champs, 1-2 Pulp, 1 Star Hero, 1 Teen Champ, 1 Post Apocalyptic and 1-2 Martial Artist types.

...

These examples would cover enough ground to give a very solid foundation in HeroThink concepts. In the end the buyer would have several complete PC's and a guide to how they were built.

 

Once again, just my 2 cents. But I really do think it would be a great benefit.

 

I had never really considered this, but now that you bring it up, I completely agree. The barrier to entry is pretty high - somebody who has never played HERO is definitely facing an uphill battle when compared to other game systems.

 

It would be great to have a couple of tutorials for building characters. Complete start to finish examples, from concept to character sheets, that shows how it all works.

 

The other stuff working against HERO is the flexibility of it. Because it is so flexible, it makes it that much more difficult to do this type of tutorial. Sure, you could run through the creation of a warrior or mage in Fantasy Hero, but Fantasy Hero itself is such a broad genre that what you come up with may not be apropos. Perhaps a tutorial in each of the setting books would be better.

 

Of course, I'm not a publisher, so I can easily offer up suggestions of a few extra pages because specific page counts are not something that I have to worry about. Until Spence's post, I had not heard of the Character Creation Handbook.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

Don't look at me. Wile_e01 said "Hey, Thia, d20 isn't working for what we're doing. Let's switch to HERO."

 

Me: "Er... okay." And a month of email with Steve & joining the boards in November... y'all have nearly 3100 posts to refer to for the rest.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Converting Players to HERO

 

My friends and I played D&D for about three or four years, can't remember. My friend suggested trying a different game, maybe a science fiction based one. I went to the local gaming store and picked it up, 5th Edition Revised. I thumbed through the massive tome, already impressed by the breakdown of characteristics, skills, and powers. Then I went to the beginning and read the intro and it was like an epiphany (I swear there were shafts of light from heaven, yes inside the store even). I then went on a trip for business and took it with me to read. It took a while, but I read every page. Yes, the "barrier to entry" is quite large, but a GM with the will can do it. Unfortunately, to this day, my players still get confused about a lot of things. I'm baffled by this as they are all engineers and computer science majors, but I manager to retrain them for every session.

 

HERO brings such consistency to all possible genres of campaigns. It's easy to see how a Fantasy Hero character brought into modern era would fit in (and not fit in). A Cyberpunk sent back in time to mingle with pirates? No problem, HERO can deal with it. And HERO does it in such a way that seems realistic, even in settings that normally aren't.