Designing Sword Schools

[Savinien]

It's me again! I'm trying to design sword/duelling schools for my Age of Reason game. It's a home-grown fictional setting with a sort of Fantasy-Victoran Era cross genre. The Age of Steam and Age of Gunpowder are burgeoning and you can see some information on the setting here(if you've the inclination):

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44510

 

Now, I've gone and started a solo online game at Hero Central, for my good RP buddy, Mastermind. I've set this prior to the Event that the other group is investigating along the Adriarch in their Steamship the Oberron.

 

The main character is a Soloman Kane clone tweaked a bit to fit into my campaign setting. Given the feel of this portion of the campaign, I'd like to introduce/establish dueling schools (he finally comes to it!) in existence in at least the Laketowns. I'm considering covering the entire gamut of 'fighting orders' throughout the setting, too.

 

Part of the inspiration (and a good chunk of the first book of this story) is A Gilded Chain by David Duncan. It's a good period piece and I want to mimic the concept of various fighting styles, a sort of Western Martial Art aggrandizement. I was thinking something similar to what was done for 7th Sea might work

 

So, I'm looking for a 7th Sea - HERO conversion of the fighting schools, or something similar. I have UMA so, if you have particular portions I should read in that, let me know. I'm letting some unarmed combat (Oriental) seep in through a monastic order in a distant land, so that might work too.

 

I've already poured over the 7th Sea to Hero threads here and they don't go into enought detail for what I'm looking for.

 

Please help!

 

Sav

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

It's me again! I'm trying to design sword/duelling schools for my Age of Reason game. It's a home-grown fictional setting with a sort of Fantasy-Victoran Era cross genre. The Age of Steam and Age of Gunpowder are burgeoning and you can see some information on the setting here(if you've the inclination):

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44510

 

Now, I've gone and started a solo online game at Hero Central, for my good RP buddy, Mastermind. I've set this prior to the Event that the other group is investigating along the Adriarch in their Steamship the Oberron.

 

The main character is a Soloman Kane clone tweaked a bit to fit into my campaign setting. Given the feel of this portion of the campaign, I'd like to introduce/establish dueling schools (he finally comes to it!) in existence in at least the Laketowns. I'm considering covering the entire gamut of 'fighting orders' throughout the setting, too.

 

Part of the inspiration (and a good chunk of the first book of this story) is A Gilded Chain by David Duncan. It's a good period piece and I want to mimic the concept of various fighting styles, a sort of Western Martial Art aggrandizement. I was thinking something similar to what was done for 7th Sea might work

 

So, I'm looking for a 7th Sea - HERO conversion of the fighting schools, or something similar. I have UMA so, if you have particular portions I should read in that, let me know. I'm letting some unarmed combat (Oriental) seep in through a monastic order in a distant land, so that might work too.

 

I've already poured over the 7th Sea to Hero threads here and they don't go into enought detail for what I'm looking for.

 

Please help!

 

Sav

 

Note also that a lot of the European fighting schools included some pretty fancy unarmed techniques as well, so you don't have to rely on "forigen" influences for that portion. I don't have 7th Sea, so I can't help on that side, but I have a pretty good working knowledge of Renaissance martial arts. Age of Reason I'm not so up on, however.

[Savinien]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

So... Have you/would you be able to use that working knowledge to create some martial art packages in HD? Or, if nothing else expound about the Manuevers and skills that might go into such packages. Some prose about the particular Martial Arts (concerning weapons used and techniques as well as some puissance for each would be awesome...!!).

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

It has been a while since I read it, and I do not have it with me, but I do remember UMA having a breakdown of several different styles of Kung Fu. That could give an example of how to take a single martial art (fencing, in this case) and differentiate several styles that each have a distinct feel.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

I did a lot of work on many different sword styles as D&D 3e Prestige Packages back in the day, and many of them are very translatable into HERO System terms.

 

Im in Dallas on a business trip, but Ill dig them up if there is any interest on my return.

 

 

In the meantime, I offer a very wide variety of modular packages for warriors here:

 

Warrior Packages

 

In particular, the Bladesman Package and Swashbuckler Swordsman.

[Savinien]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

It has been a while since I read it' date=' and I do not have it with me, but I do remember UMA having a breakdown of several different styles of Kung Fu. That could give an example of how to take a single martial art (fencing, in this case) and differentiate several styles that each have a distinct feel.[/quote']

 

I'll tray and find that in UMA! Thanks!

[Savinien]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

I did a lot of work on many different sword styles as D&D 3e Prestige Packages back in the day, and many of them are very translatable into HERO System terms.

 

Im in Dallas on a business trip, but Ill dig them up if there is any interest on my return.

 

 

In the meantime, I offer a very wide variety of modular packages for warriors here:

 

Warrior Packages

 

In particular, the Bladesman Package and Swashbuckler Swordsman.

 

There is most certainly interest! I'll have a look at the links you've posted here, too!

 

Thanks!

[Old Man]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

From a purely creative standpoint, virtually all martial art styles started out with a philosophy or inspiration that dictated how the art developed. Wing Chun was based on 'occupying the center', the space squarely in front of the opponent, and deflecting opponent attacks to make room for your own. So lots of blocking and punching, very little dodging. Bruce Lee's philosophy in developing Jeet Kune Do was speed through economy of motion--lots of quick attacks and a more emphasis on dodging. Tae Kwon Do's philosophy is that the legs are much more powerful than the hands and so the legs are the primary weapon in that style. Brazilian Jiujitsu contends that most real fights wind up as wrestiling matches anyway, so it concentrates on takedowns, holds and locks. Aikido's philosophy is one of redirecting your opponent's energy and using it against him and consists almost entirely of block/throws and joint locks. And let me quote Wikipedia on the differences between Northern and Southern Shaolin kung fu:

 

The Northern Shaolin martial arts are characterized by quick transitions between extended postures like the horse, bow, drop, and dragon stances, as well as jumps, high kicks, and acrobatics that are largely absent from the Southern Shaolin martial arts, which are characterized by relentless hand techniques delivered from less mobile but more firmly rooted stances. It is believed that the distinction between Northern and Southern is due in part to geography and genetics. The Northern terrain was considered flat and easier to do jumps and kicks and Chinese of the North were considered taller with longer legs. Southern Chinese were considered shorter and lived on rocky terrain. Their style developed with more hand techniques and less leg work.

 

That's all unarmed combat but sword styles are the same way. Ittosai's philosophy was one of simultaneously blocking and attacking with the same sword motion. Musashi's was that people have two hands and should use two swords independently (but by most accounts Musashi was huge and had fewer str min issues). I'm not up on fencing but I know the lunge was designed as a quick, efficient in-out attack from range; Bruce Lee was inspired by that maneuver.

 

So to design sword martial arts out of thin air, just make up philosophies of your own and go from there. An art based on entanglement with sword and main gauche would have disarms, blocks, and holds. A style based on attacking the foundation (feet) might have trips and high-dcv strikes. One based on the scorpion would have one-hand grabs and overhead strikes. YMMV.

[RPMiller]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

I'll add that besides philosophy, the body type of the individuals plays heavily into the development of the martial arts as does the application of those arts as seen with the Wikipedia quote. For example, the Koreans used Taekwondo to fight off horseback riders such as the Mongol invaders or horse riders of the northern kingdoms who also carried wooden shields. This required training to get up off the ground and also to break through the armor of the enemy. So another thing to consider when developing the school is what were the schools opponents' strategies and styles. Among the various samurai Kenjitsu Ryu there was a continual pattern of oneupmanship where a new technique would be developed and the other Ryu would develop a counter to that. Bruce Lee did this with his creation of Jeet Kune Do. Specifically the 'Way of the Intercepting Fist'. The philosophy here is that by intercepting the opponents attack before it can be unleashed you not only block the attack but put the defender at a disadvantage as they have never trained on what to do when this happens. I think that style of fighting would make a really interesting weapons style. Imagine if the core of your attacks was to attack the opponents weapon first and foremost rather then the opponent. If all they ever trained with was fighting with a sword, what happens when they no longer have that sword? They lose their head or run away of course.

[Gawain]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

Two pages from Surbrook's Stuff that may help:

NEW MARTIAL ARTS

MEDIEVAL MARTIAL ARTS

[mikesama]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

If you want to start making up the schools the best thing to do is answer a bunch of questions about it, by answering the questions you get a better design for what they should and have to know. Things in () are either clarifications to the questions or examples tohelp the thinking process along.

 

Is it a composite style or does it have 1 primary weapon. (In a composite style the same techniques are modified for each weapon that is used but all follow the same "rules" of use)

 

What, if any, things or ideas does the style place emphasis in? (Known to be highly defensive, offensive, fond of trick strikes ... etc)

 

Is the style a regonal varriation of annother style?

 

Traditonally taught to a sub group of a population? (Samurai, Monks, nobles?)

 

Primarily used where? (Dueling field, self defense, battlefield?)

 

Primary ideology of the style: (The style should have overriding priciples that determine how stylist would use the style. For instance shipboard cutlass primarily uses high to low cuts as in the press of close combat they are the only cuts that don't tend to chop into the guy next to you.)

 

Any techniques no longer used, and why: (A dueling style is generally more restricted in what techniques are used but if it was derived from annother fighting style the other techniques might be taught but not used.)

[Savinien]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

Thanks for additional input. I reread the section in UMA last night and liked a couple of the tidbits that were only applied to one or two of the excerpts/descriptions of particular schools.

 

One of them was a sword art that kept the haft of the sword high and blade point towards the opponents eye. This is the sort of thing I'm looking for. The game I'm using it is on Hero Central, so extra description about mannerisms of the fighting style are really nice!

 

Keep the info coming. Eventually, I'll use all this information and write something 'official' up.

 

Any thoughts on a fighting style built about the 'garde'?

 

For purposes of this thread, I'm defining the garde as a bit of piece-meal armor covering the shoulder all the way down to the wrist (and possibly a gauntlet too). Consdier the 'garde' to be spiked.

 

So, I'm thinking a shoulder from someone wearing a garde would tend to hurt. Could you build some of the manuevers with a Damage shield in mind? Or, simply build the MA and apply a Damage Shield when common sense warrants?

[RPMiller]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

The garde would be a weapon. It would have a block maneuver, an offensive and defensive strike, probably a disarm with the spikes. If you want to think a little laterally you could even define a martial dodge with it, but the effect is that the garde is purposely placed in front of the attack to protect the wearer thus increasing their DCV, but making it difficult to attack. Although a counterstrike would definitely work well with it as well.

 

In fact, take a look at the Main Gauche. The Garde would pretty much duplicate its abilities across the board plus act as extra armor in those locations it covers.

[mikesama]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

For the purpose of description using the garde would not be a "you put your arm in the way and suck it up" kind of block a large shield would make. You'd make more of a deflecting blow to the flat in order to defend against a sword, example "you counter punch with your armored fist, catching the flat of the blade forcing your opponents blade in a harmless arc up and over your head."

 

As far as descriptions of stance, at first thought the armored arm would be in a modified boxing stance. The arm would be coiled for a quick strike and the hand would be lower than the traditonal face guarding stance of a modern boxer. The hand would probably float between the shoulder and nipple line rising and falling as the user figures out the opponents tells.

[EvilDrPuma]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

It has been a while since I read it' date=' and I do not have it with me, but I do remember UMA having a breakdown of several different styles of Kung Fu. That could give an example of how to take a single martial art (fencing, in this case) and differentiate several styles that each have a distinct feel.[/quote']

 

UMA also offers substyle information for several European fencing schools.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

Here's an old zip file I found with a bunch of my pClasses in it. You'll have to pick thru it to find the sword style ones, but it should be pretty clear what is what.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

Don't forget shouting, sweating, and girls in skirts kicking high. All very important.

 

 

 

I am so not geek enough.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

I also wonder if there are styles that can be built around the characteristics of specific weapons. An obvious example is the kopesh, principal combat blade of the ancient Egyptians. To the modern eye it looks ungainly as heck, not to mention made of materials later swordsmiths would laugh at. Yet obviously it worked for them, otherwise they would have abandoned it.

 

Along those lines, I wonder what sort of style developed specifically for the use of the charioteer -- the man who fought with bow and sword while the comrade next to him drove the horses and kept the platform on which they stood as stable as it could be under the circumstances. The chariot was king of the ancient battlefield from the time of the Sumerians until Alexander's conquest of Persia -- which, given that that covered a period of some 2500 years was a pretty good run for a military technology.

[Savinien]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

What about the question of stylish duelling schools versus trained milatary... Those versed in killing as opposed to those adept at a duel?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

What about the question of stylish duelling schools versus trained milatary... Those versed in killing as opposed to those adept at a duel?

 

If you have enough points, there's no reason not to adopt both. Officers in many societies would frequently use duels to settle matters of honor, but those duels wouldn't necessarily be "to the death" because, as a fighting army, you don't want your best swordsmen killing each other instead of the enemy. The modern Uniform Code of Military Justice includes a specific prohibition against dueling for that very reason.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

The styles I posted include several that are designed around specific weapons.

[Checkmate]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

The first thing I thought of when I read this was NSG's Lightsaber Styles. Take a look at them (pretty sure they're all over Star Hero boards), remove the lightsaber and Force powers and I'd bet you'd find exactly what you're looking for.

[Susano]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

What about the question of stylish duelling schools versus trained milatary... Those versed in killing as opposed to those adept at a duel?

 

Off hand, one used to fighting in the round would have things like Defense Maneuver, Rapid Attack, and high damage maneuvers like Offensive Strike. A duelist may only have things like Block, Bind, and high DCV moves like Defensive Strike. The duelist might also take things like a lunge (+ OCV, -DCV, leaves you exposed) while the fighter in the round would be more interested in something like Counter Strike or Passing Strike.

 

PS: "In the round" means to fight in the open, as opposed to modern fighting on a narrow strip.

[Susano]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

I also wonder if there are styles that can be built around the characteristics of specific weapons. An obvious example is the kopesh, principal combat blade of the ancient Egyptians. To the modern eye it looks ungainly as heck, not to mention made of materials later swordsmiths would laugh at. Yet obviously it worked for them, otherwise they would have abandoned it.

 

Along those lines, I wonder what sort of style developed specifically for the use of the charioteer -- the man who fought with bow and sword while the comrade next to him drove the horses and kept the platform on which they stood as stable as it could be under the circumstances. The chariot was king of the ancient battlefield from the time of the Sumerians until Alexander's conquest of Persia -- which, given that that covered a period of some 2500 years was a pretty good run for a military technology.

 

I really doubt there's much of a style to be hand. If you're in a chariot, you won't be using a sword. It would be all bow work for the most part (so you might get away with a ranged MA), then you'd get to a spear for close in work (so you might get a basic spear MA there). The question is, do you need to? Is this form of fighting so well broken down as to warrant a MA, or can you simply use HTH (or Ranged) levels?

[Damascan]

Re: Designing Sword Schools

 

Maybe I missed this in some of your links, but does anyone have fighting styles designed for halflings, dwarves, elves, etc? As someone earlier had said, one would expect those styles to take into account the natural enemies of those races, as well as their typical environments. So, dwarves using their style would probably not jump much, but you would expect them to be able to fight in tight spaces effectively, perhaps focusing more on thrusting than slashing moves. Also, they may have certain move geared only towards taller opponents, or racial enemies...

 

What can I say, I'm lazy, and I'm hoping someone has already done this work for me....

 

Thanks all.