Cap is dead!!!!

[Checkmate]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Which 'first appearance' is this? I own his first appearance in New Mutants #88, and he wasn't anywhere near Central Park.

Okay when he climbs out of the water and makes everyone forget he was there, maybe it wasn't Central Park, I haven't even seen my comic collection in years, so I may be a little fuzzy on the EXACT location. And maybe it was the second appearance. Regardless of when and where, he made a bunch of people in a large area lose all memory of his presense there, pretty high order of telepathy there, and yet still needed a gun, AND was able to one punch Shatterstar, you know the guy that can stick a sword with two blades through his side, pull it out and keep on fighting...but still needed a gun

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Psm said "Sorry, you guys are the old guard and comics have outgrown you"

 

 

personally I think you're wrong on this comics are dying a slow death and Manga is their new evolution.. If you are right then It indites the decency of the american readership more than I wish to think about. My one solace is that comics are now sooo tiny a market compared to before that the much more optimstic Manga crowd are the majority. Personally Manga doesn't interest me much but I've never found anything even a 10th as objectionable as in Mainstream comics. I think that you're just in your comfort zone thinking we're the minority. More likely if comics were back to being more heroic some of that "mainstream " that you say aren't interested in comics would turn out to be folks who would buy comics if they were decent . I know I have four gamers right in this room now who would dearly love to buy comics with their favorite characters but there's nothing they can bear to buy. I know over a dozen kids who would regularly buy comics also. INsteed they buy manga as a consolation but they're rather be reading about THor, Iron man or Cap.

[Spence]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I'm 41. I started reading comics in the ear;ly 1970's. So I intuit your "comics were good" bookmark is about there and a few years back (for readers in their later 40's).

 

-snip-

 

Happier times, indeed!

 

Probably. We all look at the past through our own set of rose colored glasses. I do remember that my reading interest narrowed very quickly in the late eighties and I would guess that by 87 I hardly even glanced at DC books. My favorite series of the period were a X-Men (when it was Storm, Nightcrawler, Cyclops, Colossus, Wolverine and Rogue was new to the team. Kitty Pride was a kid that tagged along), Alpha Flight, Spiderman and Dr. Strange (though I can't remember if DrS was new or I was digging up back issues).

 

No author of anything can help being influenced by events of the time. But the difference is whether the "events" are central to the story or just a backdrop. There was always some bleed through, but when in my opinion at the time, the stories shifted from emphasizing the wonder and adventure to making it podiums for a lecture and the "backdrop" was more prominent than the characters, I quit buying them. Every once in a while I would buy an issue to see if they were any good, and they never hooked me.

 

For the longest I wouldn't look at Manga because I missed the old four color feel of a comic. But about a year ago a friend loaned me FMP and it had the same, for lack of a good word, energy I remember from comics. It flowed and was a fun read. I just don't get any of that reading comics these days.

 

But like they say, YMMV

 

If you like them then buy them. The new comics may be just what the new generation likes. In that case I am glad to be an old foggy and spend my $3 elsewhere.

 

But this is all a discussion of opinions after all.

[Balabanto]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Thank you, Steamteck.

 

The world needs real heroes now more than ever. Unfortunately, what we have now is crap.

 

I am totally stunned that the course of Civil War went as it did, that people could allow characters to be so badly mishandled.

 

For god's sake, Reed Richards, all by himself, could rewrite reality in his bedroom to make sure this crap never happened.

 

I pray to this day that I will wake up and that the past two years of comics didn't happen.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

 

Sorry, you guys are the old guard and comics have outgrown you.

 

Outgrown? Because somehow I like people who are established as heroes to remain heroic, I'm stuck in some cycle of juvenalia? I 've read Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Grant Morrison, people of craft at the top of the game who have been ranked among the best writers in the language, people whose keyboards that Millar isn't fit to lick. Don't you dare tell me that comics have "outgrown" me. I'll put my stacks of Watchmen, Sandman, Preacher, Starman, and other comics against the current "adult" comics that Marvel's churning out. Heck, I'll put up my Miller Daredevil collection, which managed to be radically adult without turning the character into something completely unrecognizable, against the new regime. I have no problem with adult.

 

The word "outgrow" implies growth. I'm inclined to think the opposite. I'm inclined to take an attitude toward Marvel that's similar to Norma Desmond's attitude toward motion pictures (albeit without the vampish dementia).

 

I resent like hell being told that comics have outgrown me just because I won't accept inconsistent characterizations, when I like previously heroic charaeters to remain heroic within human boundaries, and when I question why people like Reed Richards and Tony Stark are, by editorial fiat. acting as out of character as Mohatma Gandhi taking a machine gun and massacring the British. This isn't adult. This is lazy hackwork meant to prop up the "shocking" storylines. Don't tell me it's good writing. I've got over 25 years as a published writer and an English degree which tells me that warping characterization to service a plot is a reasonable basis for criticism.

 

I resent being told that unless you're a fan of NASCAR or have myspace pages (as was told to Cap in Frontline, a week before his death) you're somehow out of touch with reality. If you're going to be snobbish and dismissive of others, at least have some standards. This is like being told I'm out of touch with reality because I don't give a rat's backside about Anna Nicole Smith, or Rosie vs. Trump, or whatever the current media flavor du jour may be.

 

I like Brubaker's writing too. Without the larger context of Civil War or some of the other garbage that Marvel's put out, this could be an interesting story. Unfortunately, the larger context is a killer. After seeing what's been done to characters I've cared about for decades - and that emotional connection is a strength of the genre that shouldn't be dismissed as fanboyism, because establishing emotional bonds with the audience is one of the main functions of fiction - I really don't want to see it. Now good fiction, especially genre fiction often does horrible things to the protagonists. But there are lines of sadism that I'm just tired of crossing, not from this crew of writers and editors. The well is polluted. So if I miss a good, passionate, well-told story from Brubaker, so be it. I'll go back to my Astro Cities and All-Star Supermans and maybe pick up Invincible, which somehow seem to contain adult and even - gasp! - modern themes without being as noisome as what's being peddled in the House of Bad Ideas.

 

Don't mistake "outgrown" for "bored", or a cynical and adolescent contempt for altruism for "modern".

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Personally, I'd love to see who picks up the mantle of Captain America for the 21st century. I mean, don't get me wrong, the blond-haired, blue-eyed hero from World War II will always be the original Captain America.

 

But seriously, Cap is nearly 60 years out of date. I want Captain America to be part of this century, not the last.

 

I mean, imagine a computer-literate, mulatto bisexual female Captain America dealing with the complex issues of today's world.

 

Or maybe do something like a Steve Austin version of Captain America, "Gentlemen, we can rebuild him, we have the technology."

 

I'm not sure I could handle a Young Captain America clone or a weird energy Captain America.

[input.jack]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Scott Bennie, you are now firmly ranked among my personal heroes. Thank you for saying what needed to be said.

 

Oh, and Repped.

[Mister E]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Sorry' date=' you guys are the old guard and comics have outgrown you.[/quote']

 

Just passed my Perception Roll to disbelieve this statement... turns out I'm an amazing judge of what's cool: incredibly amazing... uncanny, even.

 

I'm not the old guard. I'm the vanguard.

 

In Captain America's death, I detect nothing except a market-based act of desperation launched by an industry run by losers who are completely disconnected from their product... losers like Dino De Laurentiis who let great characters like Conan and Flash Gordon whither away to nothing.

 

It reminds me of the treatment Tarzan got from the Johny Weissmuller portrayal, and the resultant retardation of the character into a monosyllabic joke. Forever will this deviation of vision, spawned from small-minded movie-makers, dominate the social perception of Tarzan. It should be a crime.

 

Comics haven't outgrown me. They've outgrown the people making them. There are few exceptions, and this isn't one of them.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Scott Bernie outstandly well put. Thanks for saying that so much better than I could. Repped.

[Plex]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

You imply that they recovered after the 90's . .

 

Didn't mean to imply that. I should have stated more clearly that the collapse had a lot to do with most of the independent comic companies folding up. (Or should I have said that the collapse was due to the fact that everyone and his brother was trying to publish a comic at that time. ) I also got my time frame mixed up when referring to what we were trying to do. It was the late 80's to about '91 when we were trying to get off the ground.

[Balabanto]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I wish I could rep him too, but I can't. I already repped him for something else.

 

Nonetheless, the idea that Captain America can be subjected to the problem of text vs. context, and is now the victim of naked self interest and callous cash payment bothers me on so many levels.

 

If Brubaker comes through and shows us just how much the world NEEDS Captain America, I'll be pleased.

 

And to Blue Jogger? A Mulatto, Bisexual Female, Computer Literate Captain America for the new century?

 

It may be a new superhero. It might even be interesting for four issues.

 

But let's get one thing straight right here, true believers.

 

The reason the classics succeed is because they're classics. The reason you can't replace Captain America is the same thing you always know, that you pretty much said without saying it.

 

That NO ONE can replace Captain America. Steve Rogers IS Captain America.

 

He already stands for ALL of America's people. The fact that he's a blonde haired, blue eyed golden boy is irrelevant.

 

I almost lost my job the other day. I got out of the situation by inhaling deeply and saying "What would Captain America do?"

 

Maybe I should do that more often.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I almost lost my job the other day. I got out of the situation by inhaling deeply and saying "What would Captain America do?"

 

Maybe I should do that more often.

 

Cap would probably quit - has he ever held a job for more than a few issues?

 

Freelance illustrator, police officer, presidential candidate...

[casualplayer]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Cap would probably quit - has he ever held a job for more than a few issues?

 

Freelance illustrator, police officer, presidential candidate...

 

Actually he illustrated comics for a couple of years. Kept to a monthly schedule while saving the world. Take that, Bryan Hitch and Steve McNiven!

 

Mr. Bennie, words fail me. Thank you for voicing what needed to be said.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Actually he illustrated comics for a couple of years. Kept to a monthly schedule while saving the world.

 

Which is better than many real artists manage! [Note: I won't label them "Professional" artists. Part of being a Professional is meeting your deadlines.]

[Checkmate]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Sorry' date=' you guys are the old guard and comics have outgrown you.[/quote']

Eloquently stated argument' date=' that most assuredly deserves to be rep'd[/quote']

In other words, in case you missed his meaning: joo gots pwned!!!!!11111!1!!

 

 

 

I know that was rude, sorry couldn't help it, won't happen again

[ayinde]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

to be truthful for the direction marvel is going i think it better cap died. the last story arch was about fighting for civil rights. sadly he died the same way as most civil rights leaders. but like civil right leaders his believes will be rembered and help guied the futer storys. cap was never a fav of mine but as a ikon he was great and i would like to give him the respect for the ikon he was. no one on the boards like'd the cw story. i didnt think it bad but to each his own.

 

respect a man who is willing to fight and die for what is true to him

respect to cap let him rest in peace

[Peregrine]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Scott Bennie, you are now firmly ranked among my personal heroes. Thank you for saying what needed to be said.

 

Oh, and Repped.

 

Megadittos.

[Peregrine]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

to be truthful for the direction marvel is going i think it better cap died. the last story arch was about fighting for civil rights. sadly he died the same way as most civil rights leaders. but like civil right leaders his believes will be rembered and help guied the futer storys. cap was never a fav of mine but as a ikon he was great and i would like to give him the respect for the ikon he was. no one on the boards like'd the cw story. i didnt think it bad but to each his own.

 

respect a man who is willing to fight and die for what is true to him

respect to cap let him rest in peace

 

I think you miss our point.

 

This is a "respect for Cap" thread. Our point is, we have more respect for Cap than the current (un)"creative team" at Marvel; some have suggested that Brubaker does not fall into this category but has been editorially forced to play along in his title. But the overall direction both of the "Big Two" comics publishers have taken with their respective universes is and has been grossly disrespectful of past characterization of the characters, has been the worst kind of bad writing and storytelling that tries to claim legitimacy by invoking the worst of the (we had hoped) departed Iron Age, and demonstrating a narrow sociopolitical slant on the part of said "creators" that has trumped any kind of reflection of a complex real world in favor of turning their product into a narcissistic* fantasyland where what they believe about the real world is not only shown to be unequivocally true but propagandizes those very beliefs to their (dwindling) readership.

 

We love Captain America, and his fellows in superheroics. We love comics as a medium, and superheroes as a genre. (We'd better, or what in the hell are we doing on this board? ) We hate what has been done to the characters and settings we love, and (many of us) hate the slant from whence much of the damage has come, and for the sake of which much damage continues to be done.

 

 

*I wanted to use a different word to indicate the level of their self-indulgence, but I wasn't sure if it would get past the censor software. For the literate, substitute 'onanism' for 'narcissism'; I dare not approach closer semantically.

[psm]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Outgrown? Because somehow I like people who are established as heroes to remain heroic, I'm stuck in some cycle of juvenalia? I 've read Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Grant Morrison, people of craft at the top of the game who have been ranked among the best writers in the language, people whose keyboards that Millar isn't fit to lick. Don't you dare tell me that comics have "outgrown" me. I'll put my stacks of Watchmen, Sandman, Preacher, Starman, and other comics against the current "adult" comics that Marvel's churning out. Heck, I'll put up my Miller Daredevil collection, which managed to be radically adult without turning the character into something completely unrecognizable, against the new regime. I have no problem with adult.

 

The word "outgrow" implies growth. I'm inclined to think the opposite. I'm inclined to take an attitude toward Marvel that's similar to Norma Desmond's attitude toward motion pictures (albeit without the vampish dementia).

 

I resent like hell being told that comics have outgrown me just because I won't accept inconsistent characterizations, when I like previously heroic charaeters to remain heroic within human boundaries, and when I question why people like Reed Richards and Tony Stark are, by editorial fiat. acting as out of character as Mohatma Gandhi taking a machine gun and massacring the British. This isn't adult. This is lazy hackwork meant to prop up the "shocking" storylines. Don't tell me it's good writing. I've got over 25 years as a published writer and an English degree which tells me that warping characterization to service a plot is a reasonable basis for criticism.

 

I like Brubaker's writing too. Without the larger context of Civil War or some of the other garbage that Marvel's put out, this could be an interesting story. Unfortunately, the larger context is a killer. After seeing what's been done to characters I've cared about for decades - and that emotional connection is a strength of the genre that shouldn't be dismissed as fanboyism, because establishing emotional bonds with the audience is one of the main functions of fiction - I really don't want to see it. Now good fiction, especially genre fiction often does horrible things to the protagonists. But there are lines of sadism that I'm just tired of crossing, not from this crew of writers and editors. The well is polluted. So if I miss a good, passionate, well-told story from Brubaker, so be it. I'll go back to my Astro Cities and All-Star Supermans and maybe pick up Invincible, which somehow seem to contain adult and even - gasp! - modern themes without being as noisome as what's being peddled in the House of Bad Ideas.

 

Don't mistake "outgrown" for "bored", or a cynical and adolescent contempt for altruism for "modern".

 

Wow, excellent reply! First off, I'm man enough to admit that you're some what right. Comics haven't outgrown you. Nor has the genre and I'm sure there are many on this bored that still have a great joy for comics in general.

 

However, I never truly meant that all comics had outgrown you. Yes, those were the words I used but that was never my true meaning. What I really meant to say was, that these characters have outgrown you.

 

Look, at all the examples you have of mature themed comic series. Not one is based on a character with a long history, except Daredevil. Which I'm glad you bring up because there was an outcry when Miller started adding noir elements to the series. Many people wanted him to go to his more idyllic days when Gene Colan was drawing him. Very few remember this because there was no internet and the majority of people liked the new changes. The same is true now.

 

You talk about mis-characterizations. Tell me, what other characters do you know of that have been around for decades and have continually published new stories every month. Every month!! None, you know why? Because characters and stories can only have a certain shelf life unless they change.

 

See, all of you want the characters to remain the same. You have your set notions of who they are and what they represent. You have a vested interest in them because you grew up with them. Unfortunately, they can't remain the same. To remain relevant they must change. The audience for comics is maturing. There focus isn't on illiterate soldiers from WWII or young children anymore. Their market is college students and young adults, the buying public. As such the characters must become more complex as does the world they live in.

 

If you notice in Civil War there were actual causalities from the heroes fighting. When was the last time there were any causalities from any super hero fight? Yes, there was always huge amounts of property damage but no one got hurt. Hell, Hulk went on rampages every other issue and no one died. Now, thats not the case. The context and tone of their world is different and as such the characters must change and face more difficult choices, whether it's mind wiping or fighting your friends.

 

The only other choice Marvel/DC has is to either stop publishing older characters and start new creating new ones (which I actually wouldn't mind). Unfortunately, that will never happen because, the companies don't want to and neither do the fans. Plus, it would give the competitor a huge advantage while the other company tried to generate interest in their new characters. Or worse, keep their characters the same and cater to a hard core group which is slowly dwindling. If you don't believe me look at the numbers for Cap and Iron man before CW.

 

So to reiterate, you are the old guard, these characters have outgrown you. I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to insult any of you but it's true.

[Brandi]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I'm sorry' date=' and I'm not trying to insult any of you[/quote']

 

You just keep telling yourself that, sweet thing.

[Checkmate]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

You talk about mis-characterizations. Tell me, what other characters do you know of that have been around for decades and have continually published new stories every month. Every month!! None, you know why? Because characters and stories can only have a certain shelf life unless they change.

So you're saying they could come up with characterisations for 40 years, but beyond that they were spent? Bull. If they could do it for 40 they can do it for 80, they got lazy and took the easy way out.

See' date=' all of you want the characters to remain the same. You have your set notions of who they are and what they represent. You have a vested interest in them because you grew up with them. Unfortunately, they can't remain the same. To remain relevant they must change. The audience for comics is maturing. There focus isn't on illiterate soldiers from WWII or young children anymore. Their market is college students and young adults, the buying public. As such the characters must become more complex as does the world they live in.[/quote']

I think the majority of us understand that the characters have to grow. They have to be relevant, and they have been growing without fundamentally changing who they are.

If you notice in Civil War there were actual causalities from the heroes fighting. When was the last time there were any causalities from any super hero fight? Yes' date=' there was always huge amounts of property damage but no one got hurt. Hell, Hulk went on rampages every other issue and no one died. Now, thats not the case. The context and tone of their world is different and as such the characters must change and face more difficult choices, whether it's mind wiping or fighting your friends.[/quote']

And why is Marvel now so quick to have casualties? NO ONE STAYS DEAD! They could kill off the whole Marvel Universe and everyone would be back and kicking in a couple of months. A character dying in the Marvel Universe has absolutly no meaning. Before, when few died characters had a tendency to stay dead. Bucky, Captain Marvel and a whole slew of others died and stayed dead...until of course this new regiem brings them all back.

The only other choice Marvel/DC has is to either stop publishing older characters and start new creating new ones (which I actually wouldn't mind). Unfortunately' date=' that will never happen because, the companies don't want to and neither do the fans. Plus, it would give the competitor a huge advantage while the other company tried to generate interest in their new characters. Or worse, keep their characters the same and cater to a hard core group which is slowly dwindling. If you don't believe me look at the numbers for Cap and Iron man before CW.[/quote']

Or hire people that can actually tell a good story. I don't know, you decide which might be better for the comic industry.

So to reiterate' date=' you are the old guard, these characters have outgrown you. I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to insult any of you but it's true.[/quote']

These characters haven't outgrown anyone. They aren't more "mature" or more believable. They've been reduced to the lowest common denominator. What silly crap can we do to sell more rags without actually having a worthwhile story?

[assault]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

I mean' date=' imagine a computer-literate, mulatto bisexual female Captain America dealing with the complex issues of today's world.[/quote']

 

(a) It wouldn't be Captain America.

( I would rather poke my eyes out with a stick.

[assault]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

Cap is dead and we're talking about Superman's sex life at his wake! Oh' date=' the humanity![/quote']

 

It's a wake. Now and

 

It's what Steve would have wanted us to do.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

So you're saying they could come up with characterisations for 40 years' date=' but beyond that they were spent? Bull. If they could do it for 40 they can do it for 80, they got lazy and took the easy way out.[/quote']

 

In his earliest appearances, Batman carried a gun. Later on, he became a campy punster. He then became (or returned to) being more a "creature of the night", but still a team player with the JLA. Now he's much less a team player.

 

The Human Torch had no compunctions about burning enemies alive in the 1940's. He does now.

 

The Golden Age Cap would gun down a Nazi. The Silver Age Cap would not gun down a Commie. The Bronze Age Cap had to gun down an Ultimatum agent, and agonized over it.

 

None of these characters has remained fixed in stone for their publishing history.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Cap is dead!!!!

 

The Human Torch of the 40s is not the same as the Fantastic Four's Human Torch.

 

I'm just waiting for the storyline where Galactus actually eats the Earth. That will be awesome.