Favorite lost villain group

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

For me: VOICE.

[MitchellS]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

Does anyone know the reasoning behind the changes they made to PSI for 5E?

I'm sure Steve and Darren know.

 

My guess would be that in the 13 years between the two publications of PSI [Mindgames in 89 and CKC and MC in 2002/03] the characters continued to be used and advance in Darren's game and what we see in 5e is the end result of that evolution.

 

Of course I'm one of those consumers who'd rather see Hero Games spend time publishing new characters and ideas rather then constantly updating older ones. It's a fairly simple thing for me to take the 4E characters and update them to 5E rules. I really don't need Hero Games to do that for me [and when I do it myself it keeps continuity issues from creeping in like some preferring 4e PSI to 5e].

[Rapier]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

I'm sure Steve and Darren know.

 

My guess would be that in the 13 years between the two publications of PSI [Mindgames in 89 and CKC and MC in 2002/03] the characters continued to be used and advance in Darren's game and what we see in 5e is the end result of that evolution.

 

Of course I'm one of those consumers who'd rather see Hero Games spend time publishing new characters and ideas rather then constantly updating older ones. It's a fairly simple thing for me to take the 4E characters and update them to 5E rules. I really don't need Hero Games to do that for me [and when I do it myself it keeps continuity issues from creeping in like some preferring 4e PSI to 5e].

 

Or how difficult would it be to take a character from 4e and say that you figure he's earned about 150 XP since publication and then spend those points?

 

I've taken a lot of the villains and things from 4e and updated them to 5e and then given them some XP. It's real easy once you have the base character.

[Dominique]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

For me: VOICE.

 

I'd forgetten about them. I really liked VOICE, and how it operated. The group was well balanced, and had a nice "feel" to it. It was also easy to incorporate additional villains into the group due to the way it was organized.

 

I'm sure Steve and Darren know.

 

My guess would be that in the 13 years between the two publications of PSI [Mindgames in 89 and CKC and MC in 2002/03] the characters continued to be used and advance in Darren's game and what we see in 5e is the end result of that evolution.

 

While that's all fine and dandy, and I hope they don't take offense to any of my comments, I really don't feel that the "revised" versions added anything new to the game. Their former origins were fine, all they really seem to have done was make them darker in tone. The new version of PSI just doesn't click for me.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

I have mixed feelings about the Zodiac. While I absolutely love the concept behind the group - and Taurus has one of the grand master-villain origins IMHO - several of the members didn't seem to have suitable personalities to be part of a would-be world-conquering team. Pursuant to that, I really felt that the Zodiac needed more of a support organization "on the ground" to implement their grand plans. When I used the Zodiac I made most of their members people of stature and influence in the world in their own rights, with considerable resources to contribute to the group effort.

 

For me: VOICE.

 

I tend to think of VOICE as more of an organization than a supervillain team, which was the only reason I didn't bring up their magnificence here before. There's still a lot of VOICE love among Champs veterans, judging by their frequent mention on these boards, and all the efforts to update the group that have been posted here.

[Scott Baker]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

I'm a huge fan of most of the villains in Enemies and Enemies II. Enemies III was hit and miss for me and seemed to reflect that "outsiders" were now writing Champions material [Enemies III feels like the Fiend Folio to me].

 

I have to agree with you on this one.

 

Scott Baker

[Balabanto]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

Well, of course, except the Corruptors of All, who were supposed to make it into 4th, but didn't.

 

(Thanks, Dennis....)

 

Really, though, VOICE was built retardedly. They were so crackmonkey uber compared to standard PC's at the time that most characters spent their time going "WHAT'S THAT GUY'S DEX AND SPD?"

 

Maybe in 5th they would seem a little less powerful to people who play the system as written, but I'd be taking them down a peg if I got that assignment. Mixed groups are deadly because players ignore agents, not because the supers are uber.

[Twilight]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

I have mixed feelings about the Zodiac. While I absolutely love the concept behind the group - and Taurus has one of the grand master-villain origins IMHO

 

 

Not just your opinion Liaden. The folks at Green Ronin Publishing apparently thought so too because one of the big bads in Mutants & Masterminds' Freedom City setting is none other then Taurus, the Minotaur! Of course this version isn't a cyborg but rather brought back by Hades to punish Dedaleus but still, great master villain.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

While that's all fine and dandy' date=' and I hope they don't take offense to any of my comments, I really don't feel that the "revised" versions added anything new to the game. Their former origins were fine, all they really seem to have done was make them darker in tone. The new version of PSI just doesn't click for me.[/quote']

 

That's pretty much the way I feel about the whole CU

[Vanguard00]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

For me: VOICE.

 

YES! I loved this group, and way back when I first got the adventure I managed to wriggle a few side adventures in where the PCs met the heroes. This was probably the only long-term campaign I ran that worked out as well as anyone could hope for. Dr. Photon and Irredencia were the only two to escape the PCs, and they rebuilt a team that plagued the PCs for a long time following the adventure.

 

Deathstroke was always a favorite of mine, as were The Ultimates. Eurostar was a hoot to run, especially when they were trying to "lay low" and the PCs stumbled across 'em.

 

I enjoyed the Geodesics a great deal. They were a fun foil to pit against the PCs for no reason whatsoever. They even helped against The Ultimates once (then looted a bank on their way out).

 

Like everyone else I miss those days....

[Vanguard00]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

I have mixed feelings about the Zodiac. While I absolutely love the concept behind the group - and Taurus has one of the grand master-villain origins IMHO - several of the members didn't seem to have suitable personalities to be part of a would-be world-conquering team. Pursuant to that' date=' I really felt that the Zodiac needed more of a support organization "on the ground" to implement their grand plans. When I used the Zodiac I made most of their members people of stature and influence in the world in their own rights, with considerable resources to contribute to the group effort.[/quote']

The only time I worked Zodiac into a campaign I had them function as a fractious group, at best. They were, for the most part, quite independent from each other and only rarely worked together in groups of more than 3-4. It worked well as far as it went, but we never did finish that particular campaign so I'm not sure how it would have ended.

[Dominique]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

That's pretty much the way I feel about the whole CU

 

This may also be going off topic, to be quite frank, many of the "new" and/or revised villains seem rather dull to me. I preferred the older versions of them to the "modern" versions were seeing now. I would have preferred that if they were going to "upgrade" them to 5E, that they either tied many of their origins into a more concise background linking them solidly into one campaign world, and fleshing out their non-combat skills to provide more well rounded characters. Also, I'm still trying to figure out why they " down graded" EUROSTAR's power levels, while boosting virtually everyone else's.

 

As far as Zodiac goes, while they were quite capable of mopping the floor with many of the hero teams running around in those days, that was part of the challenge. Players actually had to THINK of a way to defeat them, other than blasting them with their heat vision, or pounding on them with their fists. The characters themselves were very well thought out, had interesting and varied backgrounds, and if nothing else, the PCs could learn a thing or two from them about teamwork and organization.

 

As for VOICE, they’re a damned good example of how to build a viable world spanning criminal organization. They also had a pretty diverse membership, that drew members from all over the world. I liked the diversity of its members, and the fact that its leader was a Chinese vampire who preferred to work from behind the scenes orchestrating his schemes.

[Balabanto]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

The problem with Lung Hung was that his powers and abilities were ridiculous. The Damage Reduction was off the charts, and everything else, including the number of actions he got, was absurd.

 

Lung Hung owned the PC's when I ran that adventure for two turns, and then escaped.

 

How did he escape? She put on her damn Cheongsam after teleporting into the next room and made an acting roll. It was REAL easy. And my players are REAL smart.

 

I was stunned with how powerful they were, and after that, they were pretty much only encountered in groups of 1-2 with agent backup.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

Geodesics

The couples (Panda & Raccoon, Thunder & Lightning)

Since Dart & Ultraviolet were a couple, I always used the other two as supplimentary Geodesics, as they became "In a family way" the three couples would revolve membership so as to basically use each other as childcare. Orb and Diamond were not always so keen on this but they really lacked the power or charisma to do anything about it and went with the flow. The Geodesics had a comprehensive medical plan that put many corporations to shame.

[Adventus]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

I always thought they should have done more with Mongoose. Especially in Ultimate Martial Artist. They create an example Martial Art in this book, Mongoose based Martial Art. AND They don't do a Rewrite of MONGOOSE and give hime this MArtial Art!! WTF??!!.

 

That would have been the perfet character to rewrite with that martial art.

[Dominique]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

The problem with Lung Hung was that his powers and abilities were ridiculous. The Damage Reduction was off the charts, and everything else, including the number of actions he got, was absurd.

 

Lung Hung owned the PC's when I ran that adventure for two turns, and then escaped.

 

How did he escape? She put on her damn Cheongsam after teleporting into the next room and made an acting roll. It was REAL easy. And my players are REAL smart.

 

I was stunned with how powerful they were, and after that, they were pretty much only encountered in groups of 1-2 with agent backup.

 

But, and I know many of you will disagree with me on this, Lung Hung should be extremely powerful. She is what I truly consider a world class villain, with hundreds, yes HUNDREDS, of years of experience to build on. She should be capable of kicking the "average" hero group's butts seven different ways to Sunday with very little effort on her part. And, in classic comic book style, if things go badly, she should make good her escape only to return and menace the players at a later date.

 

I know a lot of you guys get major cases of heart burn when you see the power levels of some of these villains, but look at them compared to villains in comics. The heroes routinely have they’re their posteriors handed to them by “master villains” until they a) either become more experienced, or figure out a way to out think their foes. Hey diddle diddle, straight up he middle isn’t always the best course of action when dealing with a very powerful foe. If your PCs are used to busting trough the front door, putting the beat down on the villain of the week’s henchmen, and proceeding to mp the floor with their leader, then they’re in for a surprise when they come up a real bad ass. IMHO maybe it should serve as a wake-up call that they may not be as ready for the big time as they thought, or that they may have to rethink their tactics and learn form their mistakes.

 

Sorry for rambling on like that, I'll get down off my soapbox and return to the original discussion.

[MitchellS]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

I would have preferred that if they were going to "upgrade" them to 5E' date=' that they either tied many of their origins into a more concise background linking them solidly into one campaign world,[/quote']

Villains need to be kept as vague as possible because most of the people buying the material aren't playing in the CU and aren't going to want more concise backgrounds. In most cases there's enough CU in the background to make the character fit in but not so much that people feel they need to completely rewrite the character to make it fit in their game [i've had to alter many of the Algernon Files characters backgrounds because they're so tied in to that world's history].

 

Also, I'm still trying to figure out why they " down graded" EUROSTAR's power levels, while boosting virtually everyone else's.

While there are a few exceptions [mostly in the master villains] I've found that most of the updated villains have been downgraded across the board [the opposite of your idea of them 'boosting virtually everyone else'].

 

Maybe it's just the way we build characters but we found that most of the 350 point villains weren't a match for our 350 point heroes 1 on 1. That carried over to the teams. We walked all over the Ultimates, GRAB, War Machine, and even Eurostar. Mechanon, Mechassassin, and Grond easily fell before us. From the old villains only Firewing and Ripper managed to beat us [we never fought PSI but I'm sure all the mentalists would've beat us].

[Sketchpad]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

I always thought they should have done more with Mongoose. Especially in Ultimate Martial Artist. They create an example Martial Art in this book, Mongoose based Martial Art. AND They don't do a Rewrite of MONGOOSE and give hime this MArtial Art!! WTF??!!.

 

That would have been the perfet character to rewrite with that martial art.

I agree 100%! Mongoose was always one of my faves ... I always used him as a Casey Jones-like character

[Balabanto]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

Dominique, there are large numbers of ways to build an extremely powerful character. But when the average PC is built on 250-350 points, has a SPD of 5, a DEX of 23, and an 11d6 attack, any TWO of these guys would rip the PC's a new behind. And you know, those averages are still pretty much in evidence today. Even at the high end of the scale, with the way the new rules work in terms of Chargen, you're still not tipping the scales at 5d6 RKA.

 

And there's the issue.

 

Lung Hung didn't need a SPD of whatever it was. The only SPD Lung Hung ever needed in my game to bedevil the PC's was a 7, because the top range for most PC's was a 6. Just the simple ability to recover on a phase where the PC's didn't go was enough to make her a virtual god.

 

The system still hasn't broken the "2 die staging rule" where 2 more dice of power is radically overpowering. Moving it up to a 3d6 staging rule (Which seems to be closer to the 5th edition design benchmark) has WRECKED the combat system and the carefully engineered math.

 

The problem is that some people only look at chargen and point totals. But it's how those point totals affected the combat rules that made Lung Hung a problem.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

I tend to think of VOICE as more of an organization than a supervillain team' date=' which was the only reason I didn't bring up their magnificence here before. There's still a lot of VOICE love among Champs veterans, judging by their frequent mention on these boards, and all the efforts to update the group that have been posted here.[/quote']Yes, many of us love VOICE, and are disappointed that the DOJ guys don't. There's much to separate VOICE from VIPER, despite the claims of many to the contrary; the one major thing that makes the different in my mind is that VIPER is an agent-based organization with supervillain support, whereas VOICE functions more as a massive supervillain organization with agent support.

 

Really, though, VOICE was built retardedly. They were so crackmonkey uber compared to standard PC's at the time that most characters spent their time going "WHAT'S THAT GUY'S DEX AND SPD?"

 

Maybe in 5th they would seem a little less powerful to people who play the system as written, but I'd be taking them down a peg if I got that assignment. Mixed groups are deadly because players ignore agents, not because the supers are uber.

My take would be to make most of the really powerful supers (especially Lung Hung) solo operatives and/or sufficiently isolated so the PCs are unlikely to encounter them in early adventures, and let the less-powerful ones work in teams. There are other ways to make the group adjustable to PCs' power levels, of course, including the "power adjustments" currently provided in individual NPC listings for 5th Ed characters.

As for VOICE' date=' they’re a damned good example of how to build a viable world spanning criminal organization. They also had a pretty diverse membership, that drew members from all over the world. I liked the diversity of its members, and the fact that its leader was a Chinese vampire who preferred to work from behind the scenes orchestrating his schemes. [/quote']Yeah, some GMs tended to forget about that and put Lung Hung into the field full-time.

The problem with Lung Hung was that his powers and abilities were ridiculous. The Damage Reduction was off the charts, and everything else, including the number of actions he got, was absurd.

 

Lung Hung owned the PC's when I ran that adventure for two turns, and then escaped.

 

How did he escape? She put on her damn Cheongsam after teleporting into the next room and made an acting roll. It was REAL easy. And my players are REAL smart.

 

I was stunned with how powerful they were, and after that, they were pretty much only encountered in groups of 1-2 with agent backup.

See above.

But, and I know many of you will disagree with me on this, Lung Hung should be extremely powerful. She is what I truly consider a world class villain, with hundreds, yes HUNDREDS, of years of experience to build on. She should be capable of kicking the "average" hero group's butts seven different ways to Sunday with very little effort on her part. And, in classic comic book style, if things go badly, she should make good her escape only to return and menace the players at a later date.

 

I know a lot of you guys get major cases of heart burn when you see the power levels of some of these villains, but look at them compared to villains in comics. The heroes routinely have they’re their posteriors handed to them by “master villains” until they a) either become more experienced, or figure out a way to out think their foes. Hey diddle diddle, straight up he middle isn’t always the best course of action when dealing with a very powerful foe. If your PCs are used to busting trough the front door, putting the beat down on the villain of the week’s henchmen, and proceeding to mp the floor with their leader, then they’re in for a surprise when they come up a real bad ass. IMHO maybe it should serve as a wake-up call that they may not be as ready for the big time as they thought, or that they may have to rethink their tactics and learn form their mistakes.

 

Sorry for rambling on like that, I'll get down off my soapbox and return to the original discussion.

 

Dominique, there are large numbers of ways to build an extremely powerful character. But when the average PC is built on 250-350 points, has a SPD of 5, a DEX of 23, and an 11d6 attack, any TWO of these guys would rip the PC's a new behind. And you know, those averages are still pretty much in evidence today. Even at the high end of the scale, with the way the new rules work in terms of Chargen, you're still not tipping the scales at 5d6 RKA.

 

And there's the issue.

 

Lung Hung didn't need a SPD of whatever it was. The only SPD Lung Hung ever needed in my game to bedevil the PC's was a 7, because the top range for most PC's was a 6. Just the simple ability to recover on a phase where the PC's didn't go was enough to make her a virtual god.

 

The system still hasn't broken the "2 die staging rule" where 2 more dice of power is radically overpowering. Moving it up to a 3d6 staging rule (Which seems to be closer to the 5th edition design benchmark) has WRECKED the combat system and the carefully engineered math.

 

The problem is that some people only look at chargen and point totals. But it's how those point totals affected the combat rules that made Lung Hung a problem.

That and, as I said before, the tendency to bring Lung Hung into play too readily. The Red Dragon should be the martial arts equivalent of Doctor Destroyer, and as likely a target for bringing down.

 

And it's not even beyond bringing into play now. VOICE could easily be written so that it's operated quietly "under the radar" until now. And since Lung Hung is a mutant and not a true vampire (at least under the original write-up), s/he could survive the fading of magic just as easily as Cateran, and continue the organization into the third and fourth millennia. Imagine what VOICE 3000 would look like....

[Dominique]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

Dominique' date=' there are large numbers of ways to build an extremely powerful character. But when the average PC is built on 250-350 points, has a SPD of 5, a DEX of 23, and an 11d6 attack, any TWO of these guys would rip the PC's a new behind. And you know, those averages are still pretty much in evidence today. Even at the high end of the scale, with the way the new rules work in terms of Chargen, you're still not tipping the scales at 5d6 RKA. [/quote']

 

On this we agree.

 

And there's the issue.

 

Lung Hung didn't need a SPD of whatever it was. The only SPD Lung Hung ever needed in my game to bedevil the PC's was a 7, because the top range for most PC's was a 6. Just the simple ability to recover on a phase where the PC's didn't go was enough to make her a virtual god.

 

But this is where I've gotta break ranks with you. IMHO the PCs shouldn't really be coming in to contact with Lung Hung. In the unlikely event they do, it shouldn't be more than once or twice in a campaign, and then only after years of tracking her down. I'm of the opinion that the first time it happens, they should have their clocks cleaned before they think about confronting her directly again.

 

Here's my reasoning on this. She, unlike the PCs has over 700 years of experience to fall back on. How long have the PCs been at it? I tended to treat her more along the lines of a plot device who's ment to pose a threat, ranther than someone they would face head to head. Something like Dr. Zin of Johnny Quest. Someone you heard about but never meat face to face.

 

The system still hasn't broken the "2 die staging rule" where 2 more dice of power is radically overpowering. Moving it up to a 3d6 staging rule (Which seems to be closer to the 5th edition design benchmark) has WRECKED the combat system and the carefully engineered math.

 

The problem is that some people only look at chargen and point totals. But it's how those point totals affected the combat rules that made Lung Hung a problem.

 

I agree that there are several "issues" with game mechanics, but that's a seperate subject. This could all be a matter of everyone having a particular style of play, and the tastes of the both the GMs and players. I've always felt that many of the "world betters" running around the CU were a little light on power so her power levels don't bother me. But, once again, I'm getting off topic, so back to the original discussion.

[Balabanto]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

The other thing that people forget is that Champions was designed on a scale of logarythmic progressions and not a linear one. A 4 SPD is the fastest a normal human can be. That's 4 times as fast as an average human. a 5 spd is not 5 times as fast as an average human, it's 8 times as fast as an average human. a 6 is 16, and a 7 is 32 times as fast as an average human. For the record, this means that

 

Your character moves faster than people can blink, which effectively means they punch you at an invisible level. They're reacting at a speed so quick that even the most talented real world martial artists would lose their teeth because they can't see the blows coming.

 

In Champions, 11d6 isn't "A little" more powerful than 10d6. It's TWICE as powerful as 10d6. A character that throws 15 dice is 32 times as powerful as a character that throws 10d6. That's SCARY.

 

People often forget that Steve Peterson and George MacDonald weren't english majors. They were engineering and math majors. This system is designed to a precise set of engineered specifications, which is what makes it the best roleplaying system ever developed, as long as you're willing to make the effort to understand what the specifications mean.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

The other thing that people forget is that Champions was designed on a scale of logarythmic progressions and not a linear one. A 4 SPD is the fastest a normal human can be. That's 4 times as fast as an average human. a 5 spd is not 5 times as fast as an average human, it's 8 times as fast as an average human. a 6 is 16, and a 7 is 32 times as fast as an average human. For the record, this means that

 

Your character moves faster than people can blink, which effectively means they punch you at an invisible level. They're reacting at a speed so quick that even the most talented real world martial artists would lose their teeth because they can't see the blows coming.

While you're mostly correct, SPD is a bad Characteristic to use as an example because it's one of the few bits of Hero that's linear rather than logarithmic. SPD 4 is twice as fast as SPD 2, and we know this because SPD 4 acts four times per turn and SPD 2 acts twice.

 

Still, what you say applies to Primary Characteristics such as STR (the best of examples since the amount one can lift doubles per 5 STR), DEX, PRE, and so forth.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

I have to respectfully disagree with a blanket assertion that HERO Characteristics and Powers are based on a logarithmic progression. That position is derived solely from the lifting capacity of Strength, which was a feature of HERO's original source game, Champions, to allow feats of strength that comic-book superheroes often accomplish. Not only have none of the game designers ever explicitly stated that stats represent a logarithmic increase in power or effectiveness, but every other ability derived from Strength - damage, leaping distance, throwing distance, derived Figured Characteristics - increases linearly. IMHO lifting capacity should be treated as a genre-convention-based exception to HERO System norms, rather than as the rule.

 

(Seeing as this could turn into a major thread derail, perhaps interested parties could start another thread on this topic.)

[Dominique]

Re: Favorite lost villain group

 

(Seeing as this could turn into a major thread derail' date=' perhaps interested parties could start another thread on this topic.) [/quote']

 

Sounds good to me as I think this thread drifted off topic long ago.