What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

The reason that the vast majority of published (combat-worthy) characters in the CU have Dex scores between 20 and 30 is because CVs don't scale well.

 

Once you have a discrepancy of DEX of 10 or more, you gain a massive advantage over your opponent.

 

This reasoning falls short. CSLs come into play. A PC with 30 DEX (spent 60 points) has the same CV as a PC with 20 DEX +3 All Combat skill levels (spent 54 points).

 

If the +10 DEX reasoning were an issue, then the plethora of 18 DEX characters made would void the creation of anyone with a 29+ DEX.

 

nonsense.

Which part is nonsense? Are you saying that a 30 DEX character (CV 10) and a 20 DEX +3 All Combat CSL (CV 7+3=10) Don't have the same CV? Are you saying CSLs don't come into play when figuring CV? Or are you saying that 18 DEX characters really do void the creation of 29+ DEX characters?

 

Nowhere is it carved in stone that all combat-worthy published characters are balanced. Many published characters are poorly designed. Some of them, purposefully so. (at least I hope so)

 

That being said, many character concepts are intentionally unbalanced.

 

Some are intentionally overpowered because they are intended to face entire groups of adversaries. Some are underpowered because they're intended to be punching bags.

Nowhere have I stated that characters needed to be blanced.

 

You do realize the purpose of this thread is to find out why HERO Games produces a miniscule amount (less than 1%) of characters with superhuman DEX, and to a lesser degree, NONE with superhuman INT or EGO.

Still, for the standard combatant, the range of 20-30 dex encompasses at least 90% of all published characters.

 

Ever wonder why?

Have you read the first post?

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

What is it about the way you game that makes characters with off-the-chart abilities so much of a problem?

Man I'm posting and I can't shut up.

 

To answer your question: If everyone has an 18-23 DEX and you have a 50 DEX explain to me how that isn't going to create problems.

 

If everyone has 8-12 DC attacks and you have a 30 DC attack, how is that not going to cause problems?

 

If everyone has 15-30 Defs and you have 80 Defs, how is that not going to create a problem?

 

As far as limits creating people that are "The same" are you people serious? 350 points is a limit, so you're telling me all 350 point characters are the same right? Your campaing Treb, 250 points is a limit, so all the characters in that campaign must be exactly the same right? Have I adequately proved what a rediculous statement that is, or should I go on?

[Enforcer84]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Geeze what a bunch of babies (Avatars)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Man I'm posting and I can't shut up.

 

To answer your question: If everyone has an 18-23 DEX and you have a 50 DEX explain to me how that isn't going to create problems.

 

If everyone has 8-12 DC attacks and you have a 30 DC attack, how is that not going to cause problems?

 

If everyone has 15-30 Defs and you have 80 Defs, how is that not going to create a problem?

 

As far as limits creating people that are "The same" are you people serious? 350 points is a limit, so you're telling me all 350 point characters are the same right? Your campaing Treb, 250 points is a limit, so all the characters in that campaign must be exactly the same right? Have I adequately proved what a rediculous statement that is, or should I go on?

 

Me: Agreed.

 

 

Moderator: This thread is starting to heat up; lets all take a step back and count to 10 before pressing the "Submit" button before the thread careens out of control into a lock, shall we?

[Enforcer84]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Okay, Darren, Steve, solve this "Problem" by making one Superhuman example for each Characteristic.

 

*waves hand dismissively*

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

To answer your question: If everyone has an 18-23 DEX and you have a 50 DEX explain to me how that isn't going to create problems.

I think part of your frustrations is the fact you are off-topic, not following along, and now exaggerating.

 

Here's the thread topic, revised and paraphrased for you:

NPCs in the CU generally have from 18-30 DEXs. Why is there a barrier for creating 31+ DEX characters? Why don't superhumanly fast characters have a superhuman DEX? (And, to a lesser, and pretty much overlooked extent, why are there no 51+ INT or EGO?) (And IMHO, INT, EGO, and PRE should have the Superhuman level reduced from 51+ to 31+; but that's neither here nor there.)

 

As far as limits creating people that are "The same" are you people serious? 350 points is a limit' date=' so you're telling me all 350 point characters are the same right? Your campaing Treb, 250 points is a limit, so all the characters in that campaign must be exactly the same right? Have I adequately proved what a rediculous statement that is, or should I go on?[/quote']I think you read this 180 degrees from what has been stated.

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Geeze what a bunch of babies (Avatars)

You are so repped.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I think part of your frustrations is the fact you are off-topic, not following along, and now exaggerating.

 

Here's the thread topic, revised and paraphrased for you:

NPCs in the CU generally have from 18-30 DEXs. Why is there a barrier for creating 31+ DEX characters?

 

Likely the recommended CV ranges for the Champions Universe, the high end of which characters with over 30 DEX's rub up against. Or it could be the recommended 60 AP cap on abilities. Or perhaps just an awareness of basic game design and the limits of the system on the part of the Line Editor. Or perhaps a little of column A and a little of columns B and C.

 

 

Why don't superhumanly fast characters have a superhuman DEX?

 

Because they don't need it to be "superhumanly fast"?

[JmOz]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Man I'm posting and I can't shut up.

 

To answer your question: If everyone has an 18-23 DEX and you have a 50 DEX explain to me how that isn't going to create problems.

 

If everyone has 8-12 DC attacks and you have a 30 DC attack, how is that not going to cause problems?

 

If everyone has 15-30 Defs and you have 80 Defs, how is that not going to create a problem?

 

As far as limits creating people that are "The same" are you people serious? 350 points is a limit, so you're telling me all 350 point characters are the same right? Your campaing Treb, 250 points is a limit, so all the characters in that campaign must be exactly the same right? Have I adequately proved what a rediculous statement that is, or should I go on?

 

so everyone of your players is within a 5 dex range? to me that would cause problems around lack of individuality. when the range expands to 10, well thanks to the bell curve the difference between a 3cv difference and a 6 cv difference is minor...

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Kirby,

Actually, a side discussion has crept up from Trebuchet's claim that he believes limits are the crutch of weak GM's. I've sort of ignored the original topic, as I've always thought that normal humans really stopping at 30 was silly.

 

My fustration actually stems from people wanting to respond (attack) without really understanding the point they're responding to (attacking).

 

Then of course there is you throw something out there as an example to explain your position and instead of commenting on your position, they attack the example.

 

so everyone of your players is within a 5 dex range? to me that would cause problems around lack of individuality. when the range expands to 10' date=' well thanks to the bell curve the difference between a 3cv difference and a 6 cv difference is minor...[/quote']

It was an example of what I meant by WAY out, it in no way refelected anything remotely seen in any of my games.

 

That said Killer Shirke is right, I'm getting way to fustrated with this topic, and have consistantly broken the play nice rule, which is a good que to leave it alone.

[Comic]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Man I'm posting and I can't shut up.

 

Thanks for coming back to the table. It's too good a discussion to not hear from strong proponents of all persuasions.

 

To answer your question: If everyone has an 18-23 DEX and you have a 50 DEX explain to me how that isn't going to create problems.

 

In one 250 pt campaign, I played the sidekick-like 250-pt 'Rook', who was 'entirely normal' except for a 53 Dex, 12 SPD and some salvaged VIPER agent gear. (Even sold back some running so his total running per Turn was within 'human normal' movement.) Rook ('Rookie') was a 'newly powered super' who the heroes were teaching the craft. While it wasn't my most successful character, I can't recall any problems that the game group (after a period of initial skepticism) didn't work around easily. I think the biggest problem was acting every segment, which slowed combats if I didn't stay focused. Enough of those actions were taking Recoveries that the problem wasn't significant. A CV of 18 drops awfully fast when you're diving for cover, grabbing for foci, Flashed, stuck in Darkness, Stunned, Surprised, Cowed or concentrating on First Aid.

 

Maybe you could name the problems you expect?

o Too combat effective? Didn't happen in this case.

o Too much attention taken away from other players? Didn't happen.

o Dominates noncombat activities? Didn't happen.

o Upset the other players? Other than mild initial doubt it would be very playable, not so much.

o Made it hard for the GM to come up with challenges or run scenes? Not according to the GM.

 

If everyone has 8-12 DC attacks and you have a 30 DC attack, how is that not going to cause problems?

 

I've never played a game without damage caps, though I've heard of a few. From the point of view of the heroes when we were losing combats, I'm not sure I never heard the line, "Gee, if only one of us had a 30 DC attack, we could turn this fight around." That was more wishful thinking than character concept, though.

 

If everyone has 15-30 Defs and you have 80 Defs, how is that not going to create a problem?

 

Again, I need to know what the problem is? Not the situation, (i.e. a 90%-25% lopsidedness on hitting/being hit) but the problem. Why is it bad? What harm does it do? Where is the injury to the players, GM, or the game?

 

As far as limits creating people that are "The same" are you people serious? 350 points is a limit, so you're telling me all 350 point characters are the same right? *snip*

 

Limits that are narrow and based on reasoning that hasn't been thoroughly examined is to me in all situations a questionable thing. The apparent outcome is homogeneity, not fairness. The apparent mechanism is intolerance of difference, not love of equity. Until I know in crystal detail that I can follow step-by-step why I'm being asked to reject diversity in any thing, I remain suspicious.

 

How bad of a problem are we talking here? Is it cats and dogs living together serious? Is it biblical serious? Is it bribe the GM and other players with snacks serious?

 

What exactly will the problem lead to? Will the next step be Rock and Roll music? Tattoos? Puns?

 

The nature of the objection escapes me so far. Please clarify.

[KarinsDad]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Where is this stated? List book and page #, please. I find it hard to believe that HERO states 8d6 attacks are only supposed to be used on those with 16 PD/ED.

 

I've ignored the rest of your posts because you talk at people instead of talking to them.

 

I never stated that HERO said that 8d6 attacks are only supposed to be used on those with 16 PD/ED. That is your slant on what I said and one of the reasons I find you an unreasonable person to talk with. In this thread alone, you have twisted what other people say at least a dozen times as opposed to responding to what they actually write.

 

I said that it is a guideline. It is the same guideline that has been in the game system for nearly 30 years. 1D6 averages 3.5 damage, so 2 DEF against that is reasonable. Obviously, it can be higher or lower than this, but a 4 DEF per DC is totally unreasonable.

 

2.5 DEF per DC is on the high side but still reasonable. 3 per DC is extremely high and borderline unbalanced. 3.5 per DC is ridiculous since the character rarely takes damage and can sometimes even recover whatever damage he takes with post 12 recoveries.

 

Unfortunately, the guidelines on page 15 of the book are really bad with regard to DEF. Whoever wrote them was having a bad day because they are not a range that corresponds to the other categories.

 

But using them, the DEF to DC ratio for average active points are 1.67 Standard, 1.79 High Powered, and 1.94 Very High Powered. A bit on the low side. They really should be closer to 2 for PCs.

 

Note: If one considers those to be x Def + y rDef, then they are way too high: 2.5, 2.86, and 3.33. So, I suspect the authors meant Def/rDef, just like stat blocks have PD/rPD which means total and resistant.

 

A better example is the source material that HERO Games releases. For example, CKC.

 

The average PD/ED is ~22.8.

 

The average dice of damage (or overall DC for attacks like AP or AF or Ego or NND) for damaging attacks are ~13 DC (not including all advantages such as charges or reduced End since those do not add to damage and ignoring entangle only NPCs).

 

The DEF to DC ratio is about 1.75 which is what villains should have (i.e. slighty lower than PCs who should be in the 2 ballpark give or take on average).

 

But, the 2.5 he wrote is just plain skewed to get the result he wanted.

 

Is his example invalid if applied to 150 or 250 point game? Or is your "math" only valid in a 350 game?

 

The math is the same regardless. Just take a ratio. His mistake was that he used a low damage, high DEF, high additional points value for that level of damage example.

 

Would you add another 20 points to one area in a 100 point game? Isn't that overkill? 5 to 8 active points, on the other hand, is reasonable for a 100 point PC point total.

 

Where is it explicitly stated that "DEF is something that should not be heavily boosted"?

 

Yes, that was a mistype on my part. It is implicitly stated in a few ways:

 

1) Adjustment points halve their DEF effectiveness. Both pro and con. The reason is that the 1.5 to 2.5 DEF per average DC is reasonable whereas 0.5 (or less) or 3.5 (or more) DEF per average DC in the campaign is not.

 

2) Campaign source books all over the place typically have a 1.5 to 2.5 average DEF to DC ratio for heroes and 1.5 to 2.0 for villains. Not usually higher.

 

 

It's all about game balance. But from your earlier posts, it's pretty obvious that the math and game balance means little to you. You appear to just want to argue with everyone.

[GAZZA]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

An example of where things can get out of hand: several years ago I got a copy of the first edition Mayfair DC Heroes game, and also a copy of some high powered adventure (Four Horsemen of Apokalips, I believe). The suggested DC heroes were the likes of Wonder Woman and Green Lantern (though not Supes); instead we created our own heroes on the suggested point range.

 

One of my buddies basically spent 90% of his points on a Mind Blast attack. This was sufficient to utterly shred all of the villains, and there wasn't really much in the way of a disadvantage (because the way it worked out he also went first virtually all the time - I'm a bit hazy on the mechanics, it's been a long while) - and if he didn't go first, he was basically toast. A "one trick pony", in effect, unbalanced whichever way it works out (either totally dominant or totally useless).

 

Now, granted this wasn't Hero, but this possibility certainly still exists in Hero. Someone could come to the table having spent 350 points on Strength, for example. That would give them 70 PD, 70 REC (enough to recover all the END from their SPD 2 use of STR), and a 70d6 attack. That's arguably even worse than my buddy's DC Hero example (because the latter had more weaknesses - this dude would be cake to any sort of energy attack, but very strong against physical attacks).

 

This is an extreme example. But the difference between extreme examples and more reasonable examples is only degree, not kind. The limits have to be set somewhere; it's just that some people prefer setting them lower than others. There's room for both styles of play, methinks - I neither agree that large disparity in CV/DEF/Damage will necessarily destroy a game, nor that smaller disparities will turn all the heroes into virtual clones.

[Checkmate]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Thanks for coming back to the table. It's too good a discussion to not hear from strong proponents of all persuasions.

 

 

 

In one 250 pt campaign, I played the sidekick-like 250-pt 'Rook', who was 'entirely normal' except for a 53 Dex, 12 SPD and some salvaged VIPER agent gear. (Even sold back some running so his total running per Turn was within 'human normal' movement.) Rook ('Rookie') was a 'newly powered super' who the heroes were teaching the craft. While it wasn't my most successful character, I can't recall any problems that the game group (after a period of initial skepticism) didn't work around easily. I think the biggest problem was acting every segment, which slowed combats if I didn't stay focused. Enough of those actions were taking Recoveries that the problem wasn't significant. A CV of 18 drops awfully fast when you're diving for cover, grabbing for foci, Flashed, stuck in Darkness, Stunned, Surprised, Cowed or concentrating on First Aid.

 

Maybe you could name the problems you expect?

o Too combat effective? Didn't happen in this case.

o Too much attention taken away from other players? Didn't happen.

o Dominates noncombat activities? Didn't happen.

o Upset the other players? Other than mild initial doubt it would be very playable, not so much.

o Made it hard for the GM to come up with challenges or run scenes? Not according to the GM.

The problems will vary depending on where the disparity is. In your example the first thing I would notice is that in a 250 point game, you spent 186 on 2 stats, which doesn't leave a lot left for fluff/flavor skills. You haven't created a character, you've created a couple of stats.

 

When combats happend you monopolized a lot of the GM's time (admited so yourself), and while sure I can find tons of ways to "challenge" the character, the problem with this character in particular is it's an all or nothing character. I either take you out (since you have a glass jaw) or I let you dominate, even if dominating means the baddies can't touch you. Barring those options, I think of some contrived reason a certian baddie will only use certain things against you ect.

I've never played a game without damage caps' date=' though I've heard of a few. From the point of view of the heroes when we were losing combats, I'm not sure I never heard the line, "Gee, if only one of us had a 30 DC attack, we could turn this fight around." That was more wishful thinking than character concept, though.[/quote']

And yet if they had the 30 DC attack, they'd win and be happy, then later complain about how easy everything is. I think for the most part players don't want to walk all over their competition, they want to win, but they want to earn that win.

Again' date=' I need to know what the problem is? Not the situation, (i.e. a 90%-25% lopsidedness on hitting/being hit) but the problem. Why is it bad? What harm does it do? Where is the injury to the players, GM, or the game?[/quote']

All three. It makes it harder on the GM because now he has to come up with special circumstances to reduce the benefit gained by the one character without screwing the rest of the team. It makes it harder on the other players because the GM spends more time with the one player, and sometimes they're going get wasted by a villian that was designed for the the one character. And when you have unhappy players and an unhappy GM, I'm pretty sure the game is going down too.

Limits that are narrow and based on reasoning that hasn't been thoroughly examined is to me in all situations a questionable thing. The apparent outcome is homogeneity, not fairness. The apparent mechanism is intolerance of difference, not love of equity. Until I know in crystal detail that I can follow step-by-step why I'm being asked to reject diversity in any thing, I remain suspicious.

 

How bad of a problem are we talking here? Is it cats and dogs living together serious? Is it biblical serious? Is it bribe the GM and other players with snacks serious?

 

What exactly will the problem lead to? Will the next step be Rock and Roll music? Tattoos? Puns?

 

The nature of the objection escapes me so far. Please clarify.

Again how problematic depends on the amount and type of disparity. I typically set point limits (100 base +150 disads FOR EXAMPLE), I set DC limits, Def limits and active point limits. Now that's not to say you can NEVER go over those limits, but if it's allowed it will probably be by 1-5 points not 15-20.

 

But it's also not as much as the problems that come about without limits, it's the things that get accomplished with them.

 

If you say no one can have over a 32 DEX FOR EXAMPLE then you know if you have a 32 DEX you're the fastest guy around. You don't need to take a 50 DEX to feel like the fastest guy just to be sure. You know the cap is 32, and heck the GM may let you have a 33 DEX and now you're the fastest guy in the world. Limits set a benchmark that allows players to have the conception they want without worrying about the numbers. Without the limits, if someone's conception was the fastest guy in the world, what would you have to put their DEX at? They'd probably shoot it through the roof just to make sure. Limits mean that isn't nesessary.

[JmOz]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

The problems will vary depending on where the disparity is. In your example the first thing I would notice is that in a 250 point game, you spent 186 on 2 stats, which doesn't leave a lot left for fluff/flavor skills. You haven't created a character, you've created a couple of stats.

 

When combats happend you monopolized a lot of the GM's time (admited so yourself), and while sure I can find tons of ways to "challenge" the character, the problem with this character in particular is it's an all or nothing character. I either take you out (since you have a glass jaw) or I let you dominate, even if dominating means the baddies can't touch you. Barring those options, I think of some contrived reason a certian baddie will only use certain things against you ect.

 

And yet if they had the 30 DC attack, they'd win and be happy, then later complain about how easy everything is. I think for the most part players don't want to walk all over their competition, they want to win, but they want to earn that win.

 

All three. It makes it harder on the GM because now he has to come up with special circumstances to reduce the benefit gained by the one character without screwing the rest of the team. It makes it harder on the other players because the GM spends more time with the one player, and sometimes they're going get wasted by a villian that was designed for the the one character. And when you have unhappy players and an unhappy GM, I'm pretty sure the game is going down too.

 

Again how problematic depends on the amount and type of disparity. I typically set point limits (100 base +150 disads FOR EXAMPLE), I set DC limits, Def limits and active point limits. Now that's not to say you can NEVER go over those limits, but if it's allowed it will probably be by 1-5 points not 15-20.

 

But it's also not as much as the problems that come about without limits, it's the things that get accomplished with them.

 

If you say no one can have over a 32 DEX FOR EXAMPLE then you know if you have a 32 DEX you're the fastest guy around. You don't need to take a 50 DEX to feel like the fastest guy just to be sure. You know the cap is 32, and heck the GM may let you have a 33 DEX and now you're the fastest guy in the world. Limits set a benchmark that allows players to have the conception they want without worrying about the numbers. Without the limits, if someone's conception was the fastest guy in the world, what would you have to put their DEX at? They'd probably shoot it through the roof just to make sure. Limits mean that isn't nesessary.

 

 

However, in regards to caps, to often all of the characters start looking extremly similar. The cap is 12 DC, all of a sudden everycharacter has 12 dc attacks, max dex is 30, wait until you see the number of dex 29-30's you get, etc...

 

Now I will say this, giving ranges as benchmarks is great (Dex will normaly run 18-30, oh you have a dex 35 because you want to be one of the quickest people in the world, ok) Even your argument says that limits should not exist

 

You know the cap is 32, and heck the GM may let you have a 33 DEX and now you're the fastest guy in the world

 

However IME the minute you say this is the max you give players a goal to get to, and then all the characters start having similar defence, similar strength attacks, similar CV, etc... no variety, easier to GM, not as fun to play IMO.

[Grond]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I don't want to enter the Dex discussion, but from the way I see it, I don't see the reason why the greatest genius in the Champions Universe (Dr Destroyer) does not have a 50 INT. OK, he has a lot of very high level skills, but since the superhuman cap has been fixed, he should absolutely be there.

And yes, Mechanon sould absolutely be over that, since he's probably reasoning and computing data at a much faster rate than any human.

[GAZZA]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Is it just me that finds it funny that Grond is arguing for higher INT?

[Trebuchet]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

However IME the minute you say this is the max you give players a goal to get to' date=' and then all the characters start having similar defence, similar strength attacks, similar CV, etc... no variety, easier to GM, not as fun to play IMO.[/quote']That was our experience in our campaigns as well. When we relaxed damage and defensive caps in our campaign with the introduction of FREd, we got more variation - and little of it was upward.

 

I don't have a real problem with informal caps so long as a solid concept can trump those caps. I much prefer to use general guidelines rather than hard numbers and have the players and GM(s) hash out capabilities by face to face discussion. Rules of X or written caps IME tend to stifle creativity and suppress innovative concepts. We've had much better luck using schtick protection - If you're the absolute best at something, it doesn't really matter how good that is because nobody else can compete directly with you. If you've got Computer Programming 20-, those experts with a "mere" 15- will bow before your geekness. If another character is introduced with Computer Programming 15- and 5 levels with INT-based Skills, that's treading on ComputerMan's schtick and ComputerMan's player (or GM) has every right to object. Of course, if ComputerMan also has a bunch of complementary Skills he can add to augment his Computer Programming roll, that may not present a problem.

[Vondy]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

 

 

However IME the minute you say this is the max you give players a goal to get to, and then all the characters start having similar defence, similar strength attacks, similar CV, etc... no variety, easier to GM, not as fun to play IMO.

 

In general this is true, IME. When I removed the caps after getting a feel for the system (a looooong time ago), and my players also grew into the system and setting, I saw the DEX-SPD ratio in my game go down, as well as the normative attacks. I had commented on it, but the players really took it to heart and acted on it with the caveat that I rebuild the villains the way I wanted them. It resulted in broader builds and more creative power applications due to the points saved.

[Vondy]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

 

Play balance is synergetic. No one item - be it Characteristics, Powers, or Talents - is overbalancing. It's the combination of these factors and others less tangible like playstyle that can produce imbalance.

 

I agree that the notion that she wouldn't work in any campaign is false (she obviously works in yours), but the sum total of the character would break mine. I don't think its because I'm a weak GM, either (I have been given opinions to the contrary). Its not the 43 Dex, and its not even the 8 Spd (the combination would make me wary because of campaign norms, but it would probably pass). Rather, the combination of DEX, SPD, and additional combat levels breaks the parameters of the setting. I know she has lowish defenses, and presumably her attacks aren't huge (though some may be specials), but she'd outclass everyone in that department - even the people for whom hand to hand (or even ranged combat) was their shtick - which isn't really her niche. Obviously, she works in your game, but the parameters appear to be higher.

[Vondy]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Kirby:

 

I hate parsing out messages, so I'm not going to do it.

 

Earlier you mentioned that you disagreed with me on the issue of setting a human/superhuman benchmark. In truth, I don't think we disagree because your response wasn't really to the point I was making (it was close, but it addressed something a little different). I will restate my point in a different way:

 

Hero has a linear benchmark that can be checked for strength progression. All of the other primary characteristics are abstract in terms of progression and impact on the game world. If I altered the strength chart I could run a heroic game with scores running up to whatever number I desired (let's say 50 for kicks) and still have it not only work, but be called human.

 

Basically, the system takes a benchmark for a characteristic with a concrete human/superhuman divide (strength) and assumed that would work well for other characterstics (sans INT/PRE) as well, even though those characteristics have much more abstract implications driving them - and seemingly in spite of the fact that DEX/SPD are some of the most sensitive characteristics in terms of game balance.

 

We didn't see this problem in the previous edition because the conceptual zig-zag was introduced in this addition. In the previous addition it was just a flat 20, and exceptional people could go over, but there wasn't this formalized 21-30 gray area that was introduced in 5. It used to be that superhuman or legendary started at 21. While we might quibble whether 20 was correct, it didn't carry the same cognitive dissonance the current paradigm does.

 

And the reason I say it creates cognitive dissonance is that its a genre concern, not a system concern. Hero isn't just for supers. The benchmark shouldn't really be in the main rule-book, which is a toolkit for simulating any genre. It should be in genre books (and be specifically tailored so the genre will work), or there should be genre by genre options for it in an appendix (and an alternative strength chart). What works for a super-heroic settings may not really work for other genres. Its a sidebar issue. Literally.

 

In other words, what I'm meandering towards, is this (and everything before this was just blather): the reason the system doesn't follow the defined benchmarks is because the defined benchmarks don't actually work in terms of the practical results produced at play time. You see speedsters with DEXs under 30 and Speeds under 8 because that way they work in relation to everything else, while if they go to where the benchmark says they should be, the setting will be forced to "power-up" or fall-apart (because the main rule book insists on defining one chart and benchmark for all genres) WHEN IT REALLY DOESN'T HAVE TO.

 

This digs down into a very big problem, in my book: the one size fits all philosophy. The system, instead of just being a tool kit, is trying to be universal, and in so doing it to provides one answer (read: scale) for all superheroic and heroic games: AND THAT SIMPLY DOESN'T WORK.

 

Yes, we need a benchmark, but we also need a setting that's tailored to those benchmarks as opposed to a system that tries to fit all genres, regardless of shape, into one hole. A square peg gets a square hole, a round peg gets a round hole.

[MitchellS]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

And the reason I say it creates cognitive dissonance is that its a genre concern, not a system concern. Hero isn't just for supers. The benchmark shouldn't really be in the main rule-book, which is a toolkit for simulating any genre. It should be in genre books (and be specifically tailored so the genre will work), or there should be genre by genre options for it in an appendix (and an alternative strength chart). What works for a super-heroic settings may not really work for other genres. Its a sidebar issue. Literally.

 

In other words, what I'm meandering towards, is this (and everything before this was just blather): the reason the system doesn't follow the defined benchmarks is because the defined benchmarks don't actually work in terms of the practical results produced at play time. You see speedsters with DEXs under 30 and Speeds under 8 because that way they work in relation to everything else, while if they go to where the benchmark says they should be, the setting will be forced to "power-up" or fall-apart (because the main rule book insists on defining one chart and benchmark for all genres WHEN IT REALLY DOESN'T HAVE TO).

I agree with your overall points but I want to address what was brought up here. When DoJ started releasing books the benchmarks chart was only in the Champions books: Champions and Champions Universe. While it's true that chart was later added to 5Er it was originally only designed to be the benchmarks for game run in the specific Champions Universe. The chart was added to 5Er to give people some rough guideline, and it states such with the chart, but the benchmark chart was never meant to be the hard-fast rule for the entire Hero line.

 

I don't believe any of us are complaining that the entire Hero line of products isn't following the benchmarks [because there really are no established benchmarks for the entire line]. I think we're complaining about the fact that the Champions Universe line isn't following the benchmarks set down for the Champions Universe.

[Utech]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

So [...] are the guys at HERO Games concerned without suffcient reason about creating characters with a DEX higher than 30?

 

Snip.

 

I also noticed that HERO has a possible persistant non-rational concern against characters having an EGO over 30 and an INT over 30' date=' even though Superhuman is considered 51![/quote']

 

These are some pretty strong statements. I don't think your examples prove that the guys at HERO games have the concerns you attribute to them. I, for example, think sky diving looks great. But I've never been sky diving. I still think sky diving looks great. I'm not concerned about it.

 

Your examples make it quite clear that the guys at HERO Games have not published many characters that exceed the benchmarks they've set or superhuman DEX, EGO and INT. But I don't think they're concerned about it -- reasonably, rationally or not.

 

Clearly, you are concerned about this. My suggestion: Reset the benchmarks to match what you see in published characters. If it helps, think of the published benchmarks as errata.

[Kirby]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

Likely the recommended CV ranges for the Champions Universe, the high end of which characters with over 30 DEX's rub up against. Or it could be the recommended 60 AP cap on abilities. Or perhaps just an awareness of basic game design and the limits of the system on the part of the Line Editor. Or perhaps a little of column A and a little of columns B and C.

 

 

 

Because they don't need it to be "superhumanly fast"?

Again, these fall flat. With CSLs, anyone with a lower DEX can have the same CV. As for the last statement, that's like saying N/PCs don't need superhuman strength to be superhumanly strong, yet look at the abundance of NPCs with 31+ STR.

[Vondy]

Re: What does HERO Games have against >30 DEX, INT and EGO?

 

I think we're complaining about the fact that the Champions Universe line isn't following the benchmarks set down for the Champions Universe.

 

Which is - benchmark chart aside - ignoring my principle point (which I think is unintentional). The point: the system assumes one scale for all genres, which is separate from benchmarks. The benchmarks don't fit the printed materials because the system, as is evident from the resource materials, is trying to be universal.

 

The problem isn't limited to the genre. The problem is systemic to Hero as currently printed. The setting benchmarks were set, but the setting materials are trying to stay in scale with other genres that are operating on a different plane of reality altogether - AND THAT DOESN'T WORK.

 

This is the same issue that pops up with: "why can Iron Man [reasonably constructed on available points] be stunned by a .357," or "why can't the hulk [reasonably constructed on available points] not trash a tank?"

 

Its because one size doesn't fit all - different genres assume different scales - but the system currently tries to force all of them onto one scale, which can be seen by the fact that the normals and their gear can generally be ported straight into a heroic game without problems.

 

Yes, its very annoying to have multiple tank write ups, one labeled heroic and another superheroic, but its also very annoying to deal with the dissonance that emerges from not doing just that.

 

Like I said: round peg, round hole; square peg; square hole.