Rant? Speed in Hero

[casualplayer]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

A SPD 2 = 20"

A SPD 3 = 12"

A SPD 4 = 9"

A SPD 5 = 7"

A SPD 6 = 5"

 

If the 100m race starts on Segment 12, SPD 2 finishes on the following Seg 6, SPD 3 finishes on the following Seg 8, SPD 4 finishes on the following Seg 9, and SPD 5 and 6 finish on the following Seg 10. SPD 2 for the win!

[Force]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

While those are reasonable questions as applied to Archermoo or myself, I don't claim, nor to my knowledge does Archermoo, to have been enhanced by cosmic rays, experimental insects, born on another planet or self trained to near physical perfection or martial expertise and/or mutated/enhanced by a government project.

 

IOW, we are not speaking of real, normal people in real, normal situations. The game is a fantasy about a character who is larger than life in most ways fighting likewise unreal villains and situations.

 

He was not really talking about 'fantasy'. He was talking about how he could react.

 

Hence, the discussion of 'real, normal people in real, normal situations'.

[Force]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Well, given that SPD increases a character's movement rate, it isnt entirely unreasonable to think that someone with a high movement rate (an olympic sprinter) has a high SPD. HERO system pretty much dictates that such a sprinter be bought that way.

 

Consider...

 

Top olympic sprinters start stopped and run 100m in just under 10 seconds.

Thats 50 hexes in ~10 segments, or ~60 hexes in a turn.

 

Given that a character can only accellerate by his movement rate per phase, a character can't kick into non-combat movement until his 2nd phase.

 

So... to cover 60" in a turn starting from a stop, how much running does a character need?

 

Here's the formula : Run+2*Run*(SPD-1) = 60

 

Solving for SPD 2 through 6 and rounding to the nearest whole number, the following amount of running is needed to be an olympic sprinter :

 

A SPD 2 = 20"

A SPD 3 = 12"

A SPD 4 = 9"

A SPD 5 = 7"

A SPD 6 = 5"

 

So, given that Norman Characteristic Maximum is 10" on running, and 4 on SPD... which way is cheapest? And which way does not involve the character buying anything above NCM (for those who consider NCM a hard cap for 'normals') :

 

SPD 2 = 48 points. (8 on 4" + 40 on 10" more over NCM.)

SPD 3 = 26 points. (8 on 4"+ 8 on 2" more over NCM + 10 on 1*SPD)

SPD 4 = 26 points (6 on 3" + 20 on 2*SPD)

SPD 5 = 42 points (2 on 1" + 20 on 2*SPD + 20 on 1*SPD over NCM.)

SPD 6 = 58 points (-2 on -1" + 20 on 2*SPD + 40 on 2* SPD over NCM.)

 

A SPD 2 sprinter needs to buy his running up to double the Normal Characteristic Maxima, which is pretty extreme. Even people who consider NCM to be a soft cap balk at allowing that. Its the equivalent of a 40 STR "Normal". And this isnt the most point efficient way to do it anyway.

 

A SPD 3 sprinter needs to buy his running up just a tad (20%) over NCM, the equivalent of a 24 STR "Normal". Heroic, yes, but not superhuman. This method ties as 'most efficient', but loses out to SPD 4, because :

 

A SPD 4 sprinter need not buy either his SPD or Running over NCM. Both remain in the 'normal' range. Additionally, while it does cost the same as the SPD 3 sprinter, this version is actually marginally faster since the sprinter actually covers 63" in a turn, rather than 60" as does the SPD 3 sprinter. Rounding to the nearest whole inch of Running is why he needs 9".

 

SPD 5 and SPD 6 sprinters not only need to buy past NCM on SPD, but they are also not a point efficient way to run 60" from a full stop in a turn.

 

So within HERO system, the most point efficient way to build an olympic sprinter involves raising his SPD by 1 or 2, with raising it by 2 being marginally better for the reasons listed.

 

 

 

This wouldnt be the case if movement were bought per turn at half the cost, with movement per phase being determined by dividing movement per turn by SPD. Then, people who wanted to run fast would then have to buy Running, which is in keeping with the HERO maxim that one wants an effect that has a particular power associated with it, they should buy that power, rather than simulating it with another power.

 

All this does was help show the flaws that the hero movement system has, along with a few others.

 

Just because a sprinter can run faster than someone, doesn't mean that same sprinter should get the same amount of actions in combat as a trained delta force member.

[Force]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Put another way:

 

Rules are not the game; rules are the common framework on which we build the game. They provide nothing more than a common frame of reference for players and GMs to work with.

 

Hence, the quote in my sig.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I was thinking about this, as it regards to supers last night

 

You know an argument could be made that to accuratly represent things the average spped should be 6-7 so that we get maximum use of the speed chart...

 

This is a good point about the Genie. In the beginning there was a basic concept, that every 5 ap doubled the power of something. Its very easy to forget that 30 strength can lift twice as much as 25 str because it only does 1d6 more damage, and damage is the ability most frequently associated with strength.

 

But this active point ratio holds true (loosely) with all the powers and stats. The easiest examples are DI and Growth, but if you think about this scale applying to ALL powers, even ones that don't seem to have such easy conversions, then you start looking at things differently.

 

Light travels to the eye, the image is transmitted to the brain, the brain analyzes and decides on a response, sends a message to the muscles, and the appropriate action is taken. If you have faster reactions than the best trained human (i.e. higher dex or speed than NCM) somewhere in this loop you must take a shortcut. And with 10 ap per point of Speed, it has to be a hell of a shortcut.

 

And to those people trying to bring real world examples of speed and agility into the discussion, my only question is 'Are those people by any chance 2m tall and massing 100 kg?'

 

In case anyones wondering, no I don't play plodding slugs with NCM. When I'm GM'ing the game is run at the level I described in my initial post, but when I'm playing I usually play characters at the max Speed allowed cause well, its a game. And Speed kills, baby. Speed kills.

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

false assumption: NCM is not the limit of human ability rather it is the point of diminished gain (You can exceed NCM, you just work harder for it)

 

the post quoted was really about how a higher speed spread (6-7) would allow for more slower than and faster than characters...

[Markdoc]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

How do you randomize it? Have each player roll his SPD in D12's and those are the phases he gets' date=' accepting duplications? Or do you have a set of 12 cards which you shuffle each turn?[/quote']

 

No, I just roll a dice. On a 1, everybody acts and gets a "post 12" recovery afterwards. That way, I simply roll and call out - "Spd 4" or "Spd 2" and everyone with a SPD that high or higher goes in DEX order. Dice scores higher than any available SPD are "dead" phases when anyone with a held action can go.

 

It's not an attempt to *exactly* recreate the SPD chart - rather it's an attempt to make combat a little less wargamey and a little more chaotic (plus it reduces the GM's workload: I don't track what phase it is, which helps a lot when I have 20+ NPCs of varying SPDs in the fight).

 

There are issues (though personally I find them features, rather than bugs). "A turn" is still 12 seconds, but the number of actions in a turn is now slightly fluid - A turn's defined by how often a 1 comes up rather than the precise number of actions, which can cause problems for players who want to be able to precisely estimate END use and similar things: they end up with an approximation of how long things take, not precise knowledge. Out of combat, I just assume standrd number of actions based on SPD, but in combat things can go wrong - I've once ended up with players burning STUN to stay in the fight because a 1 was unusually long in coming, but I just translate that to "unusually intense period of combat" - one of those scenes in the movie where characters are just relentlessly attacking with no pause. Likewise, a turn where I roll a lot of 2's and everyone is attacking, translates to a scene where the combatants are throwing attacks as fast as they can manage.

 

I tend to run "cinematically" so in the last FH session we had a memorable instance (a fight on a smuggler's ship) where I rolled 4 "4's" in a row. Most of the PCs and NPCs involved were SPD 3 or lower, so the SPD 4 warrior with two-sword fighting basically butchered her way across the deck and up onto the sterncastle to fight the captain. I called that (and described it) as her catching them slightly offguard and basically sprinting through them with swords slashing "like a web of steel" in best Belit-fashion. The player loved it and though that was big plus for her, it is balanced by an earlier fight where I rolled bunch of "2's" and the captured leader of the smugglers and his henchmen put up a much tougher fight than expected.

 

cheers, Mark

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

(shrug) I don't consider the Word of Steve to be the end-all-be-all of my gaming experience, especially not throw-away examples.

 

Talking about SPD, etc. without taking into account PCs is pointless. Without PCs, there's no game. What if the Olympic weightlifter or sprinter is a hero/PC? What if it's not an Olympic situation and it's just a PC who wants to run real fast? What about extra running on charges? Extra NCM? Flight, only in contact with track - no NCM limit on flight. Should we give half a rat's patootie as long as it makes the game fun?

 

Rules should serve the game, not the other way around.

 

But I think the basic point of both our positions in the thread (SPD is not evil) are basically the same, from what I can tell.

 

I agree that the rules should serve the game, and that a GM or group of players should be free to modify or ignore the rules in whatever way results in maximum enjoyment for them. Whatever floats your boat, and all that.

 

But...coming to the HERO board forum and posting in the "HERO System Discussion" area implicitly states that one is here to discuss the HERO System rules, ie, "The Word of Steve".

 

This whole thread started with a new poster equating SPD with combat experience (or training), and having that interpretation called "simple minded and wrong" by a long time poster. Now, "The Word of Steve" (ie the rules as published) does not specifically say one way or another what SPD actually represents, other than mechanically speaking, saying that it represents how many actions a character gets in a turn when the game moves to 'combat time'. As such, I'd say what SPD is is pretty open to interpretation. On the other hand, the rules do specifically talk about pushing, and when it is allowed, and who can do it. Its still open to interpretation in that one can always ignore or modify rules if they like (see paragraph 1 above) but coming to the HERO system discussion forum and getting snarky with someone for quoting the rulebook (even if it is a 'throw away example') makes the whole excercise of coming to discuss the rules pointless. Also...if we are to interpret or re-interpret the rules in a way that allows us to derive maximum enjoyment, what was so wrong with the original poster interpreting SPD as combat experience or training? Why didnt you jump in with the snark towards Ghost-Angel? Why not tell him "Dude... if this poster wants to equate SPD with combat training/experience, it isn't simple minded and wrong. Its just the way he experiences and enjoys the game."

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

If the 100m race starts on Segment 12' date=' SPD 2 finishes on the following Seg 6, SPD 3 finishes on the following Seg 8, SPD 4 finishes on the following Seg 9, and SPD 5 and 6 finish on the following Seg 10. SPD 2 for the win! [/quote']

 

You got me there, I was calculating based on velocity, which HERO defines as movement per turn (SPD*Move per phase). The vaguarities of impulse movement technically invalidate the sprint example. Of course, the SPD 2 normal -did- spend 48 points., whereas the SPD 3 and 4 guys only spent 26. If we allow everyone to spend 60 points (so the SPD 6 guy can just buy SPD):

 

SPD 2 = 23" = Finishes Segment 6 (19" past the finish line)

SPD 3 = 20" = Finishes Segment 4 (1" past the finish line) +2 points unspent

SPD 4 = 18" = Finishes Segment 3 (_4" past the finsh line)

SPD 5 = 13" = Finishes Segment 5 (15" past the finish line)

SPD 6 = _6" = Finishes Segment 8 (_4" past the finish line)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

No, I just roll a dice. On a 1, everybody acts and gets a "post 12" recovery afterwards. That way, I simply roll and call out - "Spd 4" or "Spd 2" and everyone with a SPD that high or higher goes in DEX order. Dice scores higher than any available SPD are "dead" phases when anyone with a held action can go.

*********************************************************

I tend to run "cinematically" so in the last FH session we had a memorable instance (a fight on a smuggler's ship) where I rolled 4 "4's" in a row. Most of the PCs and NPCs involved were SPD 3 or lower, so the SPD 4 warrior with two-sword fighting basically butchered her way across the deck and up onto the sterncastle to fight the captain. I called that (and described it) as her catching them slightly offguard and basically sprinting through them with swords slashing "like a web of steel" in best Belit-fashion. The player loved it and though that was big plus for her, it is balanced by an earlier fight where I rolled bunch of "2's" and the captured leader of the smugglers and his henchmen put up a much tougher fight than expected.

 

With a heroic game, how often do you get a series of rolls that are above 4, so no one moves?

 

I can see this adding to the game with the random factor, but also becoming very frustrating for players as they go for an extended "unlucky streak" with their numbers just not coming up.

 

The alternate appproach I've considered (and it wasn't my idea) would shuffle a normal deck of cards and deal them out one at a time. 1 - 10 means phases 1 to 10, Jack is 11, Queen is 12 and King is PS 12 recovery. Within the deck, you'd have four of each phase, and 4 PS 12's, so 4 full turns, but the ordering would be thrown out a bit. I suppose if you have card counters in your group, you might want to use 2 or more decks for long battles so they can't predict what's coming next as readily.

 

Mind you, if you pulled 3 Kings in the first 5 draws, it may be interesting to see how peoples' END usage changes knowing another PS 12 is a long way away. [me, I'd start using my adjustment powers...]

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

All this does was help show the flaws that the hero movement system has, along with a few others.

 

Just because a sprinter can run faster than someone, doesn't mean that same sprinter should get the same amount of actions in combat as a trained delta force member.

 

True. Conversely, just because someone is a trained delta force member it doesn't mean that they should run faster than the next guy who is in similar physical shape, but doesnt have the combat training.

 

This is why I proposed buying movement in inches per turn, then dividing by one's SPD to get movement per phase*. You want to run faster? Buy Running. You want to take more actions in combat? Buy SPD.

 

*Movement per turn would preferrably be evenly divisible by a character's SPD in order to avoid having to keep track of the odd inches. Also.. movement would be halved in cost.

[Markdoc]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

With a heroic game' date=' how often do you get a series of rolls that are above 4, so no one moves?[/quote']

 

It doesn't matter - if we have a "dead" phase like that, either people with held actions choose to go, or they don't. Having 4 dead phases in a row means almost nothing since, as noted, a "phase" in this system is a variable unit of time. A SPD 4 character might get 20 actions in a turn, or 1 (statistically highly unlikely, but possible). And in truth, for encounters where the fastest SPD is 4, I typically use a d6, since it doesn't alter the math much, just to cut down on dice roling.

 

I can see this adding to the game with the random factor' date=' but also becoming very frustrating for players as they go for an extended "unlucky streak" with their numbers just not coming up.[/quote']

 

In theory it's a possibilty - in practice, it hasn't really happened in the 12 years or so of gaming, I've been using this system. What often does happen is player (and occasionally GM) frustration when a couple of unexpected rolls come up and spoil a plan: two 1's in a row for example, allowing a target almost on the ropes to snatch an unexpected recovery, or rolling a 1 or 2 on the first phase of combat, allowing the lower SPD characters to take an action on par with the faster ones. Still, for us, that sort of situation actually appeals more often than it appalls.

 

The only real downside I have encountered is that the players I have "trained up" (and that's most of them: hero gamers are hard to find) find the SPD chart very hard to deal with. When we have played using "vanilla" rules, it feels cumbersome and artificial.

 

Mind you' date=' if you pulled 3 Kings in the first 5 draws, it may be interesting to see how peoples' END usage changes knowing another PS 12 is a long way away. [me, I'd start using my adjustment powers...']

 

Yep, I considered cards and rejected them for primarily this reason: one of the things I wanted to do was speed combat up, not slow it down by adding extra probabilities to ponder. That's the kind of thing that I actually enjoy as part of a board game, but I wanted to reduce the amount of metagaming and player "pre-planning" of combat moves (and by that I mean metagame planning the phase sequence of sweeps, haymakers and CSL placement to maximise advantage of the SPD chart, not sensible pre-planning of how and where to fight).

 

I guess the attitude I wanted to inculate was:

 

"I'm faster than him: if I can block his attack I should be able to run away and he won't be able to catch me."

 

rather than:

 

"If I block on phase 4, I act again in phase 6, letting me move 6 inches before he gets an action in 8, so even if he does a moveby to reach me, I can call forward a dodge from 9, so there's no way he can get a better than 8- chance to hit and he doesn't moveby I can take a recovery on 9 and then move again on 12. But wait! If I move on 9 and take an extra recovery on 12, that'd be safer and I can still call forward a dodge ... no, that's wrong - maybe it'd be better if I dodge and half move on 4, and then...."

 

cheers, Mark

[SableWyvern]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I'm really conflicted about this "dice for speed" technique.

 

On the one hand, I think it's really great idea. On the other, I'm sure if I should be implementing it before I've got a handle on the default game structure.

 

Decisions, decisions...

 

 

Addendum: Upon reflection, I've noticed a couple of things about Markdoc's system I'm a little bit dubious about, related mainly to the way people are always "sharing" phases. When using the Speed Chart, the only people any character will always be competing with are others sharing the same Speed.

 

Under the die-roll system, a low Speed, high Dex character will have more difficulty taking extra recoveries or other interuptable actions, as everyone else will always be following his actions in every phase. On the other hand, a high Speed, high Dex character will only be in a position to abort if he holds his action, or is facing an attack from a held action in a "dead" phase.

 

I'm not sure how large an impact things like this will have, but it's enough to leave me leery of messing about too much. And, where there are subtle effects like these that even a n00b such as myself can spot, I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

 

It occurs to me that these problems disappear if you use the d12 roll to dictate the segment, and then use the Speed Chart to determine who acts. This maintains both the random element and spread of phases found on the Speed Chart. Of course, it also adds to complexity, instead of simplifying...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I'm really conflicted about this "dice for speed" technique.

 

On the one hand, I think it's really great idea. On the other, I'm sure if I should be implementing it before I've got a handle on the default game structure.

 

Decisions, decisions...

 

My personal view is that it makes sense to try the rules as written before making sweeping changes. Others prefer more tinkering, though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

It doesn't matter - if we have a "dead" phase like that, either people with held actions choose to go, or they don't. Having 4 dead phases in a row means almost nothing since, as noted, a "phase" in this system is a variable unit of time. A SPD 4 character might get 20 actions in a turn, or 1 (statistically highly unlikely, but possible). And in truth, for encounters where the fastest SPD is 4, I typically use a d6, since it doesn't alter the math much, just to cut down on dice roling. [/quote}

 

I thought about the d6 option, but doesn't that cut down on the value of holding a phase? If I have a 3 SPD and decide to reserve, I have a 75% chance the d12 will let me act before my next phase arrives. If a d6 is used, that drops to 50%.

 

Plus, if you ever want to use a 6 SPD opponent, the sight of the d12 coming out is a tipoff...

 

Yep' date=' I considered cards and rejected them for primarily this reason: one of the things I wanted to do was speed combat up, not slow it down by adding extra probabilities to ponder. That's the kind of thing that I actually enjoy as part of a board game, but I wanted to reduce the amount of metagaming and player "pre-planning" of combat moves (and by that I mean metagame planning the phase sequence of sweeps, haymakers and CSL placement to maximise advantage of the SPD chart, not sensible pre-planning of how and where to fight).[/quote]

 

I'm interested in seeing how the cards play out, but my players have never gotten too much into the metagaming angle, and I can't see them counting cards.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

My personal view is that it makes sense to try the rules as written before making sweeping changes. Others prefer more tinkering' date=' though.[/quote']

 

I'm a mad tinkerer, and lack of experience with a system rarely deters me -- as long as I feel confident I understand the ramifications of what I'm doing.

 

See my edit above as to why I'm going to hold back on this occasion, however.

[Markdoc]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I thought about the d6 option' date=' but doesn't that cut down on the value of holding a phase? If I have a 3 SPD and decide to reserve, I have a 75% chance the d12 will let me act before my next phase arrives. If a d6 is used, that drops to 50%.[/quote']

 

Yes, that's why I said it doesn't alter the maths *much*. It does, of course alter it. Sablewyvern, though, has put his finger on what I consider the one weakness of the system, which that it compresses the action. SPD 3 rarely gets a phase where SPD4 isn't also capable of acting (and so on down the line) - in fact, it only happens when one or the other is holding/has held.

 

In practical terms, it doesn't seem to matter too much, since if a player wants such an uncontested phase, they tend to hold (if only until after others have acted), but it's an æsthetic blodge on the house rule, which I admit and have grudgingly decided to live with.

 

I'm also not suggesting that it's a perfect house rule or something for everyone - we had a whole thread on it a while back and the thought of abandoning the SPD chart made some people blench: fair enough. It certainly alters game play dynamics quite a lot (though to be fair, that was the main reason for inventing it). I just mentioned it in response to the comment by (I think) Cancer on the possibility of mixing it up.

 

Plus' date=' if you ever want to use a 6 SPD opponent, the sight of the d12 coming out is a tipoff...[/quote']

 

Only one of the many uses of the GM's shield... Though when a monster whizzes up and whacks someone before he gets a chance to act, that tends to give the game away, too!

 

I'm interested in seeing how the cards play out' date=' but my players have never gotten too much into the metagaming angle, and I can't see them counting cards.[/quote']

 

Oh, I've had players who would. Shucks, as a player, I'd do it. To be honest, I'd probably do it, without even thinking about it: it'd simply be automatic.

 

cheers, Mark

[Mentor]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I agree that the rules should serve the game, and that a GM or group of players should be free to modify or ignore the rules in whatever way results in maximum enjoyment for them. Whatever floats your boat, and all that.

 

But...coming to the HERO board forum and posting in the "HERO System Discussion" area implicitly states that one is here to discuss the HERO System rules, ie, "The Word of Steve".

 

This whole thread started with a new poster equating SPD with combat experience (or training), and having that interpretation called "simple minded and wrong" by a long time poster. Now, "The Word of Steve" (ie the rules as published) does not specifically say one way or another what SPD actually represents, other than mechanically speaking, saying that it represents how many actions a character gets in a turn when the game moves to 'combat time'. As such, I'd say what SPD is is pretty open to interpretation. On the other hand, the rules do specifically talk about pushing, and when it is allowed, and who can do it. Its still open to interpretation in that one can always ignore or modify rules if they like (see paragraph 1 above) but coming to the HERO system discussion forum and getting snarky with someone for quoting the rulebook (even if it is a 'throw away example') makes the whole excercise of coming to discuss the rules pointless. Also...if we are to interpret or re-interpret the rules in a way that allows us to derive maximum enjoyment, what was so wrong with the original poster interpreting SPD as combat experience or training? Why didnt you jump in with the snark towards Ghost-Angel? Why not tell him "Dude... if this poster wants to equate SPD with combat training/experience, it isn't simple minded and wrong. Its just the way he experiences and enjoys the game."

I would just like to remind people that the "Word of Steve" aso includes (I paraphrase) statements like "If a rule doesn't work for your campaign, don't use it or change it to suit" and "You are the GM, so it is your campaign". Our campaign has approaches that are similar to Steve's and some that are probably wildly different. Its all good.

[bjvargas]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I'll tell ya where SPD makes me cringe:

 

2 diff characters pay for the exact same power with the exact effect expecting the exact same results:

 

So they both build, say, an EB, AoE, Continuous, 0 END, Uncontrolled (yeah, going extreme here to make a point). One has SPD 6, the other SPD 3. One just happens to do damage twice as often as the other.

 

Sure, I recognize that especially a the Superheroic level the game is all about paying for the benefit and getting benefit based upon what you paid for it, and the SPD 6 guy paid for that extra SPD (and through the nose at that).

 

But still...kinda makes me twitch when neither character puts anything more into *the power*, and both disconnect from the power completely (continuous and uncontolled), but one does damage twice as often.

 

/shrug

 

BJ...DC...Iamlibertarian...whatever else you want to call me (Hi Chris)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I'll tell ya where SPD makes me cringe:

 

2 diff characters pay for the exact same power with the exact effect expecting the exact same results:

 

So they both build, say, an EB, AoE, Continuous, 0 END, Uncontrolled (yeah, going extreme here to make a point). One has SPD 6, the other SPD 3. One just happens to do damage twice as often as the other.

 

Sure, I recognize that especially a the Superheroic level the game is all about paying for the benefit and getting benefit based upon what you paid for it, and the SPD 6 guy paid for that extra SPD (and through the nose at that).

 

But still...kinda makes me twitch when neither character puts anything more into *the power*, and both disconnect from the power completely (continuous and uncontolled), but one does damage twice as often.

 

/shrug

 

BJ...DC...Iamlibertarian...whatever else you want to call me (Hi Chris)

 

The 3 SPD character could put the points towards offsetting the Sweep/Rapid Attack penalties of firing the attack twice or more on his 1st phase.

 

SPD in HERO is not just about rapid offense. It's also about rapid defense (also known as Aborting). A character with a low SPD can have rapid attacks via skill (aformentioned Sweep/Rapid Attack) or power (autofire). These options usually come at a substantial discount to the equivalent # attacks (if even possible) via higher SPD.

[archermoo]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

The only real downside I have encountered is that the players I have "trained up" (and that's most of them: hero gamers are hard to find) find the SPD chart very hard to deal with. When we have played using "vanilla" rules, it feels cumbersome and artificial.

 

Wheras I've played with people using similar systems (as well as card based systems too), and all have felt cumbersome and artificial compared to the SPD Chart.

 

Each to their own and all that...

[bjvargas]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Hmmm...I suppose my 'twitch' is just that, *my* twitch. But I admit I hadn't thought of it that way Hyper-Man...thx

[bjvargas]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

True. Conversely, just because someone is a trained delta force member it doesn't mean that they should run faster than the next guy who is in similar physical shape, but doesnt have the combat training.

 

This is why I proposed buying movement in inches per turn, then dividing by one's SPD to get movement per phase*. You want to run faster? Buy Running. You want to take more actions in combat? Buy SPD.

 

*Movement per turn would preferrably be evenly divisible by a character's SPD in order to avoid having to keep track of the odd inches. Also.. movement would be halved in cost.

 

And then you get to deal with the Cyberpunk style game, where the decker needs to out 'program' the other drecker...er...decker. Still based muchly on SPD. Yet has nothing to do with 'combat', by which I obviously mean something like:

 

Decker is trying to get a prog entered before above mentioned delta force dude can fight through the cyborg, combat robot, and point laser defense to stop said decker from entering the prog. All timing based upon SPD, but one being physical 'combat training' vs. the other intellectual 'combat training'.

 

/shrug

 

BJ

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Addendum: Upon reflection, I've noticed a couple of things about Markdoc's system I'm a little bit dubious about, related mainly to the way people are always "sharing" phases. When using the Speed Chart, the only people any character will always be competing with are others sharing the same Speed.

 

Under the die-roll system, a low Speed, high Dex character will have more difficulty taking extra recoveries or other interuptable actions, as everyone else will always be following his actions in every phase. On the other hand, a high Speed, high Dex character will only be in a position to abort if he holds his action, or is facing an attack from a held action in a "dead" phase.

 

These are very reasonable issues to consider. As well, a low DEX character can simply look around, decide pretty much everyone else has already acted, and take a recovery, secure that he will be able to Abort after the next die roll if he needs to get his DCV back. I hadn't thought of this "new metagame" aspect.

 

It occurs to me that these problems disappear if you use the d12 roll to dictate the segment' date=' and then use the Speed Chart to determine who acts. This maintains both the random element and spread of phases found on the Speed Chart. Of course, it also adds to complexity, instead of simplifying...[/quote']

 

I've seen that approach suggested as well, with all 12's followed immediately by a PS 12.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Oh' date=' I've had players who would. Shucks, as a player, I'd do it. To be honest, I'd probably do it, without even thinking about it: it'd simply be automatic.[/quote']

 

I was going to suggest I'd use 20 or 30 decks - that would reduce card counting. But it would be slow to shuffle.

 

However, I think one could simply use only one suit (13 cards) and reshuffle after each draw to eliminate the ability to count cards. That brings it back to pure random chance again, of course, with the only change from a d12 is that no one knows which phase will end with a recovery.