Rant? Speed in Hero

[archermoo]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

With all due respect, a game in which the Speed Chart has up to a 12 SPD means tha having a PC with a SPD as high as 12 is part of the Hero system ands appropriate to the game. The penalty is usually low defenses and low attacks, so they seldom occur.

 

Now, for those who are stuck on reality, ask yourself how many punches can be thrown or bullets fired accurately from a gun in a twelve second period in a combat situation? The average for someone well trained is approx. 1 per second. The difference between pros and novices is that big.

 

More to the point, unless one wants a street level campaign, what is wrong with a Super team in which the PCs are twice as fast as the SEAL team? Why call in the Avengers or Justice League if the SWAT team is just as capable?

 

Heck, I can accurately fire a bow once every 4 seconds. I've never actually timed myself with a pistol, but I don't think 1 shot per second would be out of the question, while still maintaining good accuracy.

[Force]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Heck' date=' I can accurately fire a bow once every 4 seconds. I've never actually timed myself with a pistol, but I don't think 1 shot per second would be out of the question, while still maintaining good accuracy.[/quote']

 

Well the questions would be:

 

Can you do that while under fire?

 

Can you do that and keep your active dcv?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Heck' date=' I can accurately fire a bow once every 4 seconds. I've never actually timed myself with a pistol, but I don't think 1 shot per second would be out of the question, while still maintaining good accuracy.[/quote']

 

Isn't that essentially a Rapid Fire (ranged Sweep) attack?

 

I agree that what you describe seems reasonable. The mechanic makes it seem harder. One solution might be to reduce (by half?) the OCV penalties of the manuever while going to 0 DCV (Basically taking the full Concentration Limitation).

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

So what you're saying is that I need a new saying? If that's what you're saying, just say it is all I'm saying.

 

If I remember right you're talking about good ol' Mongoose, with 33/7. King Cobra should have bit that sucker's head off and spared us generations of 30/6 Martial Artists with no other back story than "I studied hard."

 

Like I said before, it's all relative. However DEX/SPD disparity is the biggest reason why genre-bending blows up. The supremely agile thief (4 SPD) has reactions as fast as the plodding superheroic brick (4 SPD?) Hmmmm, problem.

 

Actualy, I'm saying you need to drop the word "back" from your saying. Back implies that it has at one time been there, it has not been, so without the word it would be "Put the Geniee in the bottle", thus not impling (unintentianly) that this is something that has developed over the years instead of the way it has always been

 

What can I say, I get caught up on language at times...

 

As for cross genre aplications, I think the biggest issue is really the point diference (a 150 point thief compared to a 350 point stealth based character should & will not compare). Having said that I do feel the genre supports the idea that most characters in spandex do not compare to those not. I see nothing wrong with toning down the heroes, just not what I read in comics...

[incrdbil]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Just from my experinece, outside of 'street level' or low powered superhero games, I've never seen a PC with a SPD below 4. In fact, I can think only of a one SPD 4 outside of a street hero game. Slow characters (bricks) are usually 5, Most are sPD 6, and thern variious others go from 7 to 9. Nine is the highest SPD I played for more than a one off game, and it was fun to have actiosn to ' burn'--the lower your SPD, the more players seem to fret about getting maximum offensive value out of them, and not doing anything else.

[archermoo]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Well the questions would be:

 

Can you do that while under fire?

 

Can you do that and keep your active dcv?

 

I've never been under fire, nor have I trained for such. I have known people for whom the answer to both questions would be yes.

 

My point was what I am capable of without intensive formal training. Imagine what someone who does have intensive formal training could do.

[archermoo]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Isn't that essentially a Rapid Fire (ranged Sweep) attack?

 

No, it isn't. In game mechanic terms, since I don't have huge amounts of practice (i.e. skill levels) I can be assumed to both set and brace before starting to fire, and then fire all of the rounds.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Just from my experinece' date=' outside of 'street level' or low powered superhero games, I've never seen a PC with a SPD below 4. In fact, I can think only of a one SPD 4 outside of a street hero game. Slow characters (bricks) are usually 5, Most are sPD 6, and thern variious others go from 7 to 9. Nine is the highest SPD I played for more than a one off game, and it was fun to have actiosn to ' burn'--the lower your SPD, the more players seem to fret about getting maximum offensive value out of them, and not doing anything else.[/quote']That has been the result in our campaign as well. The SPD 4 brick seldom takes an action that doesn't result in damage (or at least attempted damage if she misses); whereas she can take the damage that hits her. The team's two martial artists (SPD 6 and 9) typically spend 1/3 to 1/2 of their Phases dodging, blocking, diving for cover, or otherwise avoiding getting hammered. In practice it works out that the faster characters have an effective SPD only 1 or 2 higher than the brick, and in those Phases they can deliver significantly less damage than the brick.

[Greywind]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

SPD is relative and only relates within a campaign setting. Which is why most books that offer characters come with the caveat of "flavor to taste."

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Just from my experinece' date=' outside of 'street level' or low powered superhero games, I've never seen a PC with a SPD below 4. In fact, I can think only of a one SPD 4 outside of a street hero game. Slow characters (bricks) are usually 5, Most are sPD 6, and thern variious others go from 7 to 9. Nine is the highest SPD I played for more than a one off game, and it was fun to have actiosn to ' burn'--the lower your SPD, the more players seem to fret about getting maximum offensive value out of them, and not doing anything else.[/quote']

 

my games tend to run 1 speed lower, I have seen a half dozen speed 3, most average run 5 to 6, with faster running 7+

[incrdbil]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

SPD 6 seems very popular for alot of reasons. Easy to remember. You act evey other phase, so you can react quickly to goins on. SPD 5 or 4 have gaps that feel long in comparison.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I was helping someone make a character for the Champions campaign I'm starting and I had what seemed like my millionth discussion about this apparently controversial topic.

 

 

 

You are not a quick thinker or a good combatant. You react slowly in pressure situations. You are Speed 1.

 

You are a typical person. You react at normal speeds in pressure situation. You are Speed 2.

 

You have been in many fights. You have been trained to think more clearly and act more efficiently in tense situations. Perhaps you are a police officer or fireman. You are Speed 3.

 

You have received extensive combat training. You may be a black belt or a member of a elite fighting unit. You are Speed 4.

 

You make those pathetic Rangers and Seals look like lardasses. You can outthink and move faster than Tito Ortiz. You are John Rambo. You are Speed 5.

 

Normal people can barely see you move in a fight. They sure as hell can't keep up with you. You are Morpheus or Trinity IN The Matrix. You are Speed 6.

 

Trained agents can't keep track of you. You are at least partially made of energy. You are an Agent in The Matrix. You are Speed 7.

 

Faster than that. 8+.

 

 

This is based on the premise that NCM is Speed 4, and on the overall Hero principle of 5 active points doubles a power. If players and GM's follow these guidelines it will be easier to compare characters across all genres. Yes, superheroes are faster and more competent than normals, but having 60 strength is not actually a justification for being able to act more often in combat than a Navy Seal.

 

 

I like your breakdown and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I've always measured speed thusly;

 

SPD-1: Challenged

SPD-2: Normal (around 80% of the population)

SPD-3: Athletic (most professional atheletes who's sport encourages speed. Most highly trained combatants like Marines etc)

SPD-4: Olympic (An Olympic sprinter, a Navy SEAL, A Black Belt Martial Artist etc)

SPD-5: Hyper-competant (Worlds fastest man, the best MI:6 agent, a martial arts master, Batman etc)

SPD-6: Superhuman (Captain America, Wolverine etc)

SPD-7: Incredibly fast (Nightcrawler, Wonder Woman)

SPD-8: A blur (Spidey)

SPD-9: Too fast for the human eye to follow (Quicksilver)

SPD-10: Fast doesn't begin to describe it (NEO)

SPD-11: Faster than a speeding bullet (Supes)

SPD-12: Master of the Speed Force (Flash)

 

I consider this chart universal, and I don't change the benchmark at all between genres. For example, most characters in my Fantasy Hero games are between SPD 3 and SPD 4, with an occasional SPD 5 because of magic. In my Star Hero games, I have a villian who is SPD-5 because he is a genetically enhanced supersoldier. In my Five Star Stories game (Science/Fantasy on the Superheroic level) the characters range between SPD-6 and SPD-8 (The characters are highly evolved supersoldiers who heavily rely on speed to outfight their opponents) and in my Superhero games, it can range between SPD-3 on up to SPD-12 if necessary.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I like your breakdown and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I've always measured speed thusly;

 

SPD-1: Challenged

SPD-2: Normal (around 80% of the population)

SPD-3: Athletic (most professional atheletes who's sport encourages speed. Most highly trained combatants like Marines etc)

SPD-4: Olympic (An Olympic sprinter, a Navy SEAL, A Black Belt Martial Artist etc)

SPD-5: Hyper-competant (Worlds fastest man, the best MI:6 agent, a martial arts master, Batman etc)

SPD-6: Superhuman (Captain America, Wolverine etc)

SPD-7: Incredibly fast (Nightcrawler, Wonder Woman)

SPD-8: A blur (Spidey)

SPD-9: Too fast for the human eye to follow (Quicksilver)

SPD-10: Fast doesn't begin to describe it (NEO)

SPD-11: Faster than a speeding bullet (Supes)

SPD-12: Master of the Speed Force (Flash)

 

I consider this chart universal, and I don't change the benchmark at all between genres. For example, most characters in my Fantasy Hero games are between SPD 3 and SPD 4, with an occasional SPD 5 because of magic. In my Star Hero games, I have a villian who is SPD-5 because he is a genetically enhanced supersoldier. In my Five Star Stories game (Science/Fantasy on the Superheroic level) the characters range between SPD-6 and SPD-8 (The characters are highly evolved supersoldiers who heavily rely on speed to outfight their opponents) and in my Superhero games, it can range between SPD-3 on up to SPD-12 if necessary.

I can basically get behind this chart (though I might quibble on specific allocations).

 

BTW if you're back in San Diego, you should come and play in my Champions campaign

[Markdoc]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I admit I've had a long-running dissatisfaction with turn-based personal combat systems, since those invariably turn small differences in time to react to an event into artificially large, repeatable, exploitable differences in ability to perform actions, and smashing the varying complexity of actions into the same artificially structured lockstep.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't come across or worked out anything else, so I have no suggestion to offer in the place of lockstep turn-based systems.

 

I have. In my games, I randomise the speed chart so that a SPD 4 player will still get 25% more actions than the SPD 3's - but he can't tell exactly when he will get them, making "reacting on the fly, when an opportunity presents" the order of the day. I like the system, as do almost all of my players, but I admit it jars some of the ultra-tactical types or very old-school players.

 

cheers, Mark

[Force]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I like your breakdown and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I've always measured speed thusly;

 

SPD-1: Challenged

SPD-2: Normal (around 80% of the population)

SPD-3: Athletic (most professional atheletes who's sport encourages speed. Most highly trained combatants like Marines etc)

SPD-4: Olympic (An Olympic sprinter, a Navy SEAL, A Black Belt Martial Artist etc)

SPD-5: Hyper-competant (Worlds fastest man, the best MI:6 agent, a martial arts master, Batman etc)

SPD-6: Superhuman (Captain America, Wolverine etc)

SPD-7: Incredibly fast (Nightcrawler, Wonder Woman)

SPD-8: A blur (Spidey)

SPD-9: Too fast for the human eye to follow (Quicksilver)

SPD-10: Fast doesn't begin to describe it (NEO)

SPD-11: Faster than a speeding bullet (Supes)

SPD-12: Master of the Speed Force (Flash)

 

I consider this chart universal, and I don't change the benchmark at all between genres. For example, most characters in my Fantasy Hero games are between SPD 3 and SPD 4, with an occasional SPD 5 because of magic. In my Star Hero games, I have a villian who is SPD-5 because he is a genetically enhanced supersoldier. In my Five Star Stories game (Science/Fantasy on the Superheroic level) the characters range between SPD-6 and SPD-8 (The characters are highly evolved supersoldiers who heavily rely on speed to outfight their opponents) and in my Superhero games, it can range between SPD-3 on up to SPD-12 if necessary.

 

Not a bad speed chart, with some exceptions.

 

I always find it amusing that someone always thinks that just because you can run fast (olympic sprinter) or you can do gymnastics (olympic athlete) you should get more actions in a turn.

 

Which is why I am with mostly with ghost on thoughts about speed.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

(Someone a while back (RDU Neil? Von D-Man? someone else?) made the point about SPD representing "screen time" and that heroes and major villains should naturally have more. )

 

 

SPD is efficient.

 

Is it entirely "realistic"? Of course not. (Neither are eyebeams, etc. but nevermind)

 

It's a force multiplier. You get to attack, dodge/block, move, etc more often, making the points you spent on everything else more effective. It's one of the things that allows supers/PCs to romp over normals with normal weapons. Take it away, and you either shift the "balance of power" back to the agents, or have to adjust the supers/PCs in other ways to compensate - better defenses/stun/body, more levels, put more points into buying movement powers up, focus more on things like AE attacks, sweeps and the like.

 

Are doing things like sweeps, MPAs, "counter-strike" damage shields, selective AE attacks defined as "hitting all the bad guys in the room" really any better than just setting the SPD higher?

 

And as Chris points out, lower SPDs (assuming defenses and such aren't lower too) tend to make for longer combats, especially if there are bricks and/or master villains involved (who usually have good defenses and REC scores).

[Mentor]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Well the questions would be:

 

Can you do that while under fire?

 

Can you do that and keep your active dcv?

 

While those are reasonable questions as applied to Archermoo or myself, I don't claim, nor to my knowledge does Archermoo, to have been enhanced by cosmic rays, experimental insects, born on another planet or self trained to near physical perfection or martial expertise and/or mutated/enhanced by a government project.

 

IOW, we are not speaking of real, normal people in real, normal situations. The game is a fantasy about a character who is larger than life in most ways fighting likewise unreal villains and situations.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Someone on either RPG.net or here posted the following:

 

SPD = fun

 

I gotta say, I kind of agree with that assessment...

[Cancer]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I have. In my games' date=' I randomise the speed chart so that a SPD 4 player will still get 25% more actions than the SPD 3's - but he can't tell exactly when he will get them, making "reacting on the fly, when an opportunity presents" the order of the day.[/quote']

 

How do you randomize it? Have each player roll his SPD in D12's and those are the phases he gets, accepting duplications? Or do you have a set of 12 cards which you shuffle each turn?

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Not a bad speed chart, with some exceptions.

 

I always find it amusing that someone always thinks that just because you can run fast (olympic sprinter) or you can do gymnastics (olympic athlete) you should get more actions in a turn.

 

Which is why I am with mostly with ghost on thoughts about speed.

 

Well, given that SPD increases a character's movement rate, it isnt entirely unreasonable to think that someone with a high movement rate (an olympic sprinter) has a high SPD. HERO system pretty much dictates that such a sprinter be bought that way.

 

Consider...

 

Top olympic sprinters start stopped and run 100m in just under 10 seconds.

Thats 50 hexes in ~10 segments, or ~60 hexes in a turn.

 

Given that a character can only accellerate by his movement rate per phase, a character can't kick into non-combat movement until his 2nd phase.

 

So... to cover 60" in a turn starting from a stop, how much running does a character need?

 

Here's the formula : Run+2*Run*(SPD-1) = 60

 

Solving for SPD 2 through 6 and rounding to the nearest whole number, the following amount of running is needed to be an olympic sprinter :

 

A SPD 2 = 20"

A SPD 3 = 12"

A SPD 4 = 9"

A SPD 5 = 7"

A SPD 6 = 5"

 

So, given that Norman Characteristic Maximum is 10" on running, and 4 on SPD... which way is cheapest? And which way does not involve the character buying anything above NCM (for those who consider NCM a hard cap for 'normals') :

 

SPD 2 = 48 points. (8 on 4" + 40 on 10" more over NCM.)

SPD 3 = 26 points. (8 on 4"+ 8 on 2" more over NCM + 10 on 1*SPD)

SPD 4 = 26 points (6 on 3" + 20 on 2*SPD)

SPD 5 = 42 points (2 on 1" + 20 on 2*SPD + 20 on 1*SPD over NCM.)

SPD 6 = 58 points (-2 on -1" + 20 on 2*SPD + 40 on 2* SPD over NCM.)

 

A SPD 2 sprinter needs to buy his running up to double the Normal Characteristic Maxima, which is pretty extreme. Even people who consider NCM to be a soft cap balk at allowing that. Its the equivalent of a 40 STR "Normal". And this isnt the most point efficient way to do it anyway.

 

A SPD 3 sprinter needs to buy his running up just a tad (20%) over NCM, the equivalent of a 24 STR "Normal". Heroic, yes, but not superhuman. This method ties as 'most efficient', but loses out to SPD 4, because :

 

A SPD 4 sprinter need not buy either his SPD or Running over NCM. Both remain in the 'normal' range. Additionally, while it does cost the same as the SPD 3 sprinter, this version is actually marginally faster since the sprinter actually covers 63" in a turn, rather than 60" as does the SPD 3 sprinter. Rounding to the nearest whole inch of Running is why he needs 9".

 

SPD 5 and SPD 6 sprinters not only need to buy past NCM on SPD, but they are also not a point efficient way to run 60" from a full stop in a turn.

 

So within HERO system, the most point efficient way to build an olympic sprinter involves raising his SPD by 1 or 2, with raising it by 2 being marginally better for the reasons listed.

 

 

 

This wouldnt be the case if movement were bought per turn at half the cost, with movement per phase being determined by dividing movement per turn by SPD. Then, people who wanted to run fast would then have to buy Running, which is in keeping with the HERO maxim that one wants an effect that has a particular power associated with it, they should buy that power, rather than simulating it with another power.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Not taking into account pushing, etc...

 

But anyways...I think expecting a game system with numbers thrown down in 1981 in order to simulate superheroes to accurately simulate everything in real life is expecting too much.

 

Is it "more accurate" than many other systems? Probably. Will it ever be completely accurate? No. Just make it playable.

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I was thinking about this, as it regards to supers last night

 

You know an argument could be made that to accuratly represent things the average spped should be 6-7 so that we get maximum use of the speed chart...

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Not taking into account pushing, etc...

 

But anyways...I think expecting a game system with numbers thrown down in 1981 in order to simulate superheroes to accurately simulate everything in real life is expecting too much.

 

Is it "more accurate" than many other systems? Probably. Will it ever be completely accurate? No. Just make it playable.

 

 

Fifth, Pushing is for heroes and important NPCs. The average man - even the best athletes and warriors - can never Push. Pushing is something which only heroes (including all PCs) and their enemies can usually do. For example, an Olympic weightlifter cannot Push his STR to lift more weight and win the gold medal - he's not a hero, so he can't Push, even though this is a crucial activity for him.

 

Push isnt an issue. The rules (at least the edition I have) even specifically give the example that Olympic level athletes can't push.

 

What other etc... is there?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Push isnt an issue. The rules (at least the edition I have) even specifically give the example that Olympic level athletes can't push.

 

What other etc... is there?

 

(shrug) I don't consider the Word of Steve to be the end-all-be-all of my gaming experience, especially not throw-away examples.

 

Talking about SPD, etc. without taking into account PCs is pointless. Without PCs, there's no game. What if the Olympic weightlifter or sprinter is a hero/PC? What if it's not an Olympic situation and it's just a PC who wants to run real fast? What about extra running on charges? Extra NCM? Flight, only in contact with track - no NCM limit on flight. Should we give half a rat's patootie as long as it makes the game fun?

 

Rules should serve the game, not the other way around.

 

But I think the basic point of both our positions in the thread (SPD is not evil) are basically the same, from what I can tell.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Rules should serve the game' date=' not the other way around.[/quote']Put another way:

 

Rules are not the game; rules are the common framework on which we build the game. They provide nothing more than a common frame of reference for players and GMs to work with.