Rant? Speed in Hero

[Force]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I find myself agreeing with ghost-angel on this one. I have never seen a SPD 3 super, although I'm sure they're out there. Even the "slow" brick in our Champions game is a SPD 4, although she is a quick witted woman with superhuman STR and DEX.

 

SPD 1 is perfectly appropriate for persons prone to panic or to freezing up in crisis situations.

 

I'd rate elite troops with combat experience like SEALS and agents as SPD 4 without any qualms.

 

SPD 5 is for normal top-notch martial artists and the like.

 

And SPD 6 works for Batman or Captain America. Anything beyond that moves into superhuman ranges.

 

I agree with Treb and for the most part Ghost.

[Roth]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I've been Playing Champions since the first edition. I've played and made up characters from SPD 3 to 12. And personally to me, and the way I've explained it dozens of times to others, is speed is your reaction time. It's usually for combat, but technically can be any high stress situation where the GM is counting down the phases for one reason or another. It doesn't take severe combat training to have a speed of 6... it just takes a good character concept and a good special effect.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I know some people are simply more comfortable with lower SPDs. I'm cool with that; I just don't feel like being told I'm doing something wrong because our campaign works fine with a 4 - 9 SPD spread instead of 3 - 7. Whatever works for the group is the correct SPD range. Our Pulp Hero campaign has 4 SPD 3's and a SPD 4 for the master of kung fu. Works just fine.

 

I figure there are 12 Phases and a SPD range of 1 thru 12 for a reason.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I know some people are simply more comfortable with lower SPDs. I'm cool with that; I just don't feel like being told I'm doing something wrong because our campaign works fine with a 4 - 9 SPD spread instead of 3 - 7. Whatever works for the group is the correct SPD range. Our Pulp Hero campaign has 4 SPD 3's and a SPD 4 for the master of kung fu. Works just fine.

 

I figure there are 12 Phases and a SPD range of 1 thru 12 for a reason.

 

I'm with you here. I do run with one group with a SPD rng of 5-12 (5,5,6,12 are the speeds). It works perfectly well.

 

the range you run can vary from game to game to game. There is no real hard fast rule about how much Speed a character should have.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I'm with you here. I do run with one group with a SPD rng of 5-12 (5,5,6,12 are the speeds). It works perfectly well.

 

the range you run can vary from game to game to game. There is no real hard fast rule about how much Speed a character should have.

Agreed. I do think there should be a good conceptual justification to hit 7+ SPD. IOW, I don't think "I train really hard and eat my Wheaties" validates a SPD 8. Some GMs might disagree; and they wouldn't be wrong in their campaign. It just wouldn't fly in ours.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

 

 

Emphasis mine.

 

You take a look at your first post - you said Speed directly correlated to "Combat Experience" not "Combat Potential" or "Ability to act under stress" or anything else.

 

Okay, I'll take a look..................

 

You are not a quick thinker or a good combatant. You react slowly in pressure situations. You are Speed 1.

 

You are a typical person. You react at normal speeds in pressure situation. You are Speed 2.

 

You have been in many fights. You have been trained to think more clearly and act more efficiently in tense situations. Perhaps you are a police officer or fireman. You are Speed 3.

 

You have received extensive combat training. You may be a black belt or a member of a elite fighting unit. You are Speed 4.

 

Reading is FUNdamental!

 

You see, but do not observe.

 

 

 

(space for more meaningless and baseless insults below)

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

DEX is your combat ability (OCV/DCV)

INT is your quick thinking ability.

SPD is how often you act - nothing more, nothing less.

 

So a SPD 4 auto mechainc DOES fix cars twice as fast as a SPD 2 one? He must, since he picks up his tools twice as fast, turns wrenches twice as fast, and when he spends a phase thinking about what to do next, well, he does all that cogitating in only 3 seconds rather than 6.

 

And if he doesnt fix it twice as fast, he should demand a +1 to his Mechanics skill roll since, obviously, he's constantly taking extra phases on each little step of the car-fixing process. How else could it be that he's not fixing twice as fast? If he doesnt get that +1, AND he doesnt fix faster, where are all those extra actions he paid for by buying up his SPD going?

 

Now, (more seriously ( )) I could see certain special effects for a high SPD that would allow a character to fix that car faster (time dilation, an accellerated metabolism that makes the characer experience the world faster) but most high SPD characters arent high SPD because they experience time differently than the rest of us.

 

"Yes, you're the Gray Gibbon, who got your superpowers by being bitten by a radioactive primate. Like a gibbon, you're very dexterous. I see you bought a 30 DEX. OK. That gives you a 4 SPD on figured. How do you justify the other 4 SPD you bought beyond that? What? You were a sports professional before the accident? OK... were you legendary? No, just an above average professional athelete? Such an athelete is, at most, 2 SPD over a base normal, i guess that justifies you being SPD 6. What about the last 2 SPD? Just vaguely defined 'superness'? Gotcha....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

You know, I never said Characters should take the Speed they want, or toss concept out the door, or not have a good reason.

 

I took issue with the idea that the original explanation involved the statement "So, you've been in a lot of fights then?" as a reason why Speed 6 isn't acceptable.

 

Anyways, I hate superheroes, and well - they don't need much of a reason to got to Speed 4-6 because THEY ARE SUPERHEROES. I don't want to get a Speed 3 Superhero because the GM doesn't think scientists who've never left the lab shouldn't be any higher.

 

Now the GM is being as arbitrary as a player who just wants Speed 8 because it's cool.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

So a SPD 4 auto mechainc DOES fix cars twice as fast as a SPD 2 one? He must' date=' since he picks up his tools twice as fast, turns wrenches twice as fast, and when he spends a phase thinking about what to do next, well, he does all that cogitating in only 3 seconds rather than 6.[/quote']5ER states that all activities except combat are performed at SPD 2, so your (admittedly facetious) example is invalid anyway. Now, if the characters are under fire and trying to escape by fixing a broken-down vehicle, then I would indeed expect the SPD 4 mechanic to repair the car more quickly than the average mechanic.

 

Obviously there would be exceptions, such as certain sports which are combat-like in intensity. But on average, a SPD 6 librarian does not reshelf books 3X faster than a SPD 2 librarian.

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

(snip)

 

Third - Speed is not necessarily a "combat" stat. Speed is how many actions you can perform in a 12 second period. You can be a quick thinker, quick reactor and have absolutely no combat training at all.

 

I think your benchmark rating is, to put it bluntly, simple minded and wrong.

 

 

5ER states that all activities except combat are performed at SPD 2

 

(Snip)

 

Seems to be a pretty strong indicator that SPD is a "combat" stat. Its not how many actions you can perform in a 12 second period, but how many actions you can perform in 12 second period in combat. Using this stat dictate the speed of a character's activities outside of combat clearly contravenes the published rules, then. A group can do it if they like, of course, but coming down on someone and calling their ideas "simpleminded and wrong" because they make the connection between combatant/combatant like experience and SPD (a stat used only in COMBAT) seems a bit off.

 

 

PS : I am not hugely fond of superheroes either. Silly or unexplained character/power concepts and origins seem to be pretty standard.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I think that Ghost-Angel still has a very valid point, in that there is no objective, universal scale with which we can (or should) all measure Speed against.

 

Even if I do disagree with the vehemence with which he objects to relating Speed to combat capability.

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

5ER states that all activities except combat are performed at SPD 2, so your (admittedly facetious) example is invalid anyway. Now, if the characters are under fire and trying to escape by fixing a broken-down vehicle, then I would indeed expect the SPD 4 mechanic to repair the car more quickly than the average mechanic.

 

Obviously there would be exceptions, such as certain sports which are combat-like in intensity. But on average, a SPD 6 librarian does not reshelf books 3X faster than a SPD 2 librarian.

 

As an aside...

 

Does this mean that a character's out of combat movement rate for long distance travel is determined at SPD 2 as well?

 

20" Flight (8xNCM) on a SPD 6 Character is no longer 360 mph, but is actually 120 mph?

 

Buying NCMs is looking worse and worse compared to Megascale.

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I think that Ghost-Angel still has a very valid point, in that there is no objective, universal scale with which we can (or should) all measure Speed against.

 

Even if I do disagree with the vehemence with which he objects to relating Speed to combat capability.

 

I think he has a point as well, but his 'vehemence' got my hackles up

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Seems to be a pretty strong indicator that SPD is a "combat" stat. Its not how many actions you can perform in a 12 second period' date=' but how many actions you can perform in 12 second period [i']in combat[/i].

Isn't that what I just said? Don't conflate me and ghost-angel. We generally agree philosophically on most game issues, but we don't agree 100% on everything. I don't think SPD is only a combat Characteristic. I do think it is generally only relevant in combat.

[SableWyvern]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Does this mean that a character's out of combat movement rate for long distance travel is determined at SPD 2 as well?

 

Not in my games.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

As an aside...

 

Does this mean that a character's out of combat movement rate for long distance travel is determined at SPD 2 as well?

 

20" Flight (8xNCM) on a SPD 6 Character is no longer 360 mph, but is actually 120 mph?

 

Buying NCMs is looking worse and worse compared to Megascale.

Now you're just being silly. The rules are pretty clear how non-combat movement works. If all you want is velocity, then NCM will never compare well with Megascale.

[Vondy]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Speed and its measure and meaning is genre dependent.

 

That said...

 

The definitions you provide are good general benchmarks for cinematic level heroic games, or even supernormal oriented characters in a superheroic game, but with supers speed isn't always training and experience based. It can also be power based, with a number of special effects being used to justify higher speeds. For instance, a character with lightning powers might support any number of rubbery justifications for having a high speed depending on the style ("age") of game. In an iron or steel age game you might enforce "hard-rubber" and limit those explanations, but in a silver age game you'd probably allow super-stretch-elastic in terms of scientific explanation (most people on the boards could probably list half a dozen, easy).

 

Its also a question of whether you and the player are on the same page in terms of style and genre. Its possible their assumptions are not your assumptions, which on some level seems to be the case here. If you say superheroic in general terms its very normal to get a diverse set of builds that are jarring in terms of what you had in mind. Communication, as always, is the key - and it begins with the GM. If you don't give a fairly comprehensive outline (to players you haven't played with enough to have similar assumptions) its not really fair to expect players will hand you characters that fit. If, however, the player hasn't even considered the FX angle, then you have another level of problem to deal with.

[Markdoc]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Now you're just being silly. The rules are pretty clear how non-combat movement works. If all you want is velocity' date=' then NCM will never compare well with Megascale.[/quote']

 

It'd be pretty amusing for his team-mates when the guy with megascaled flight tried using it in an urban area though, and discovered his turn radius is 10 km....

 

As to the SPD stat, it's useful in combat, without question, but there is nothing in the rules to suggest that it is in any way tied to combat experience - that's what CSLs are for.

 

It's perfectly possible for a 16 year old champion gymnast to have 4 SPD (maybe even 5, at olympic level) without ever seeing a fight in her life.

 

Combat experience is a valid excuse for increasing your SPD a notch or two, but there are plenty of other, equally valid reasons. Extra SPD is usually only relevant in pressure situations (though there are exceptions, such as movement, alreday pointed out). But pressure doens't have to involve combat - this is pointed out for skills where similarly, a roll is usually not required for tasks that don't involve some sort of pressure.

 

cheers, Mark

[Greywind]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I fing it interesting that the base argument is "SPD is a measure of combat ability", which totally ignores little things like how fast/far someone can move OUT of combat situations.

 

People with a high SPD, let's say 7 with 20" of flight can move 280" when not in combat. Why would someone capable in combat, as the OP poses, be able to move that fast if he isn't in combat?

 

Seems there is a certain fallacy at work here.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I totally disagree. What you think would have been better introduces too much granularity IMO. It makes it too hard to define which is faster - Spider-Man or Nightcrawler. I wouldn't have minded more low-SPD "official" characters as examples, but I see no reason to impose a cap At least if a character devotes 40 points to increase SPD he's paying a significant portion of his total CP for it. If everyone capped at 4 or 5 all you'd see is higher defenses or bigger attacks with the extra points.

 

Our campaign has held with an average SPD of 5 for many years now.

 

As has the CU baseline. I'm not saying dropping average speeds (and DEX) across the board is "better" or "worse". I'm saying it is an approach which could have been taken many years ago, but was not. It's not going to change back now.

 

I've wondered a few times whether, had Hero incorporated the NCM rules from the outset, the original sample characters would have had lower DEX and SPD because characters like the example Crusader, fast but still human, would have been given top normal human stats (ie DEX 20; SPD 4) and the rest of the characters worked in around that baseline. The result would have been slightly lower numbers overall, with more or less the same spread between them, so the game wouldn't have changed markedly.

 

A Big Splash page with a whole group of AIM guys firing at Spidey. Over the course of a turn while the agents are firing at him' date=' how many different actions does he take relative to thiers? Yes, he attacks several of them, but is he performing a Sweep or is he actually devoting phases to each guy? More importantly, can he attack with his swingline, move across the room, open a door, walk inside, sit at a computer, make a Computer roll, [/quote']

 

I'll interrupt here. Ignoring the "out of combat everyone is a 2" concept, which I don't necessarily agree with, don't skills require a certain base amount of time in order to make a roll? I don't see much besides "hit on button" or "duble click an icon" that takes a phase, and even then the SW has to load afterwards. Perhaps it requires a turn (or more) to make that Computer Skill roll, so your Speed makes no difference.

 

Go back outside' date=' web some guys, move up the side of the building out of sight on a balcony, check his blackberry,[/quote']

 

Perhaps also requiring a turn.

 

Even assuming these actions don't require a full turn, I see:

 

AIM agents fire on Ph 12 (Spidey was surprised)

Spidey attacks with swingline - ends phase; 1 phase

Cross room (half phase move); open door and walk inside (switch from swing to run; half phase; assumes opening door is 0 phase); 2nd phase

Sit at computer (1/2 phase); make computer roll (1/2 phase seems bvery generous) 3rd phase

Go back outside (12/ move), web some guys (1/2 phase attack action) 4th phase

Move up building (1/2 phase); climb onto balcony (1/2 phase) 5th phase

check blackberry - even at the most generous assumption for time taken by each action, Spidey is in his 6th phase. That requires Spidey to have SPD 12 and the agennts to have SPD 2.

 

Typical Champs agents have a SPD of 3, at a minimum. That seems fair for AIM. I don't think many writeups would put Spidey at SPD 12. Maybe SPD 6 - 8. At a generous 9, Spidey moves three times for every AIM agent action. That's one swingline attack, an Entangle and a Dodge or DFC to avoid that AIM blaster. At a more conservative 6, he moves twice, one swingline attack, an Entangle and base DCV to avoid that AIM blaster.

 

 

Spidey seems to take a couple of attack actions, at least, in the time it takes all the agents to file. In the comics, phases tend not to align neatly with the SPD chart, so the agents don't all fire at once.

 

etc. while the goons have only fired once? It's pretty rare in comics to see characters that you can verifiably say have more than a point of Speed over someone else. Even Megavillains don't literally run rings around normals' date=' or if they do its usually a special effect of high Dex rather than ridiculously high Speed.[/quote']

 

I seem to recall a lot of megavillain battles where a hero thinks something like "Good lord, we haven't even fired on him and already two guys are down".

 

Like most things in Hero, multiple SFX exist for SPD. SPD might be a factor of intense combat training, great reflexes, hyperintelligence or any number of other SFX. Better definition might see limited SPD that can only be used for certain things. By the way, the term the comics often use, "agility", sems to subsume both SPD and DEX, at least to some extent.

 

So a SPD 4 auto mechainc DOES fix cars twice as fast as a SPD 2 one? He must' date=' since he picks up his tools twice as fast, turns wrenches twice as fast, and when he spends a phase thinking about what to do next, well, he does all that cogitating in only 3 seconds rather than 6.[/quote']

 

Or perhaps fixing cars is a skill requiring a minute, 5 minutes or 20 minutes to take a roll. Perhaps at those levels the roll is an automatic success (routine task), but rush the work and now you do have to roll, with the prospect of failure. Let's assume a spectacular roll of 22- (very good skill, good equipment and a pretty routine task), and we want to bump down the chart from 20 minutes to one phase. That's a -3 penalty for each step down, so -12. That drops us to a 10 or less, a 50% success chance. Even assuming it's possible to do the job in that period - is the Flash changing my tire? - I don't think many businesses would stay in business if they bungled routine tasks half the time.

 

And if he doesnt fix it twice as fast' date=' he should demand a +1 to his Mechanics skill roll since, obviously, he's constantly taking extra phases on each little step of the car-fixing process. How else could it be that he's not fixing twice as fast? If he doesnt get that +1, AND he doesnt fix faster, where are all those extra actions he paid for by buying up his SPD going?[/quote']

 

If he has to roll every phase, he can have the +1. In the 20 minutes it will take to do a routine task, your SPD 4 mechanic now needs to roll 400 times. That's a decent chance for an 18, which means he completely botched that step and, consequently, has failed to fix the car (the same as if he tried to rush it down to one phase).

 

Where do all those extra actions go when he drives a car or eats his lunch?

 

"Yes' date=' you're the Gray Gibbon, who got your superpowers by being bitten by a radioactive primate. Like a gibbon, you're very dexterous. I see you bought a 30 DEX. OK. That gives you a 4 SPD on figured. How do you justify the other 4 SPD you bought beyond that? What? You were a sports professional before the accident? OK... were you legendary? No, just an above average professional athelete? Such an athelete is, at most, 2 SPD over a base normal, i guess that justifies you being SPD 6. What about the last 2 SPD? Just vaguely defined 'superness'? Gotcha....[/quote']

 

The better justification is "I'm considerably faster than the average Super, and the average Super has a 5-6 Speed, based on published characters. Is the average in your game markedly lower? If so, I'm OK with having a lower Speed, but my vision of the character says he's 1-2 SPD higher than 90 to 95% of the Supers population, and has two to four times the Speed (ie 3 or 4 times as many actions) as a cop to agent level character. Since cops and agents would be SPD 2 to 4, that implies an 8. How fast are agents in yur game - if they cap out at 3 for the most elite, I'm OK with a 5 or 6 SPD, since that will match my vision of the caracter."

 

It's all relative. Drop speeds across the board and everyone can get by with less Speed. But that means lowering speeds across the board, and not letting them be bought up every time someone accumulates 10 xp.

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Where do all those extra actions go when he drives a car or eats his lunch?

 

He should eat his lunch twice as fast, but while driving, he's limited to the SPD of the vehicle. If he's driving a SPD 2 vehicle, and is SPD 4, he can spend 2 Phases a turn doing something else

[Checkmate]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

As has the CU baseline. I'm not saying dropping average speeds (and DEX) across the board is "better" or "worse". I'm saying it is an approach which could have been taken many years ago, but was not. It's not going to change back now.

 

I've wondered a few times whether, had Hero incorporated the NCM rules from the outset, the original sample characters would have had lower DEX and SPD because characters like the example Crusader, fast but still human, would have been given top normal human stats (ie DEX 20; SPD 4) and the rest of the characters worked in around that baseline. The result would have been slightly lower numbers overall, with more or less the same spread between them, so the game wouldn't have changed markedly.

Except when I told people in these forums that a group I was in had done exactly that for years, I was told that it didn't simulate the genre. I'll have to go back and check for sure, but I'm pretty sure you're the one who said it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

He should eat his lunch twice as fast' date='[/quote']

 

Will he also digest it twice as fast? I can stuff food down my face faster than I normally eat, but it's not what I would call a pleasant dining experience. Not everything comes down to "moving as fast as a possibly can". Often, getting it done right is more important than getting it done fast.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Except when I told people in these forums that a group I was in had done exactly that for years' date=' I was told that it didn't simulate the genre. I'll have to go back and check for sure, but I'm pretty sure you're the one who said it.[/quote']

 

If I recall the same thread, it indicated that no one whose background did not include "superhuman agility" could exceed a certain DEX and/or Speed benchmark. That is, "training can't take you beyond Speed X", or "a non-superhuman character caps out, but other backgrounds do not". It may even have gone so far as to require all characters who weren't "Superhuman" by background to take NCM. I disagreed with that, and still do, but let's just refer people to that thread, should they be so inclined and assuming I am correct in my recollection, rather than restate it here.

 

To extrapolate from my example of Crusader, Green Dragon (human martial artist) could certainly have a 5 or 6 speed and a 23 or 26 DEX. We'd be lowering the bar across the board, so a 29 DEX would be as impressive under this model as a 35 DEX is now.

[Vondy]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

If I recall the same thread, it indicated that no one whose background did not include "superhuman agility" could exceed a certain DEX and/or Speed benchmark. That is, "training can't take you beyond Speed X", or "a non-superhuman character caps out, but other backgrounds do not". It may even have gone so far as to require all characters who weren't "Superhuman" by background to take NCM. I disagreed with that, and still do, but let's just refer people to that thread, should they be so inclined and assuming I am correct in my recollection, rather than restate it here.

 

To extrapolate from my example of Crusader, Green Dragon (human martial artist) could certainly have a 5 or 6 speed and a 23 or 26 DEX. We'd be lowering the bar across the board, so a 29 DEX would be as impressive under this model as a 35 DEX is now.

 

It might have been my game that was being discussed, but I think I pointed out my game wasn't a normative supers game and had different genre requirements. We had a hard NCM20 for everyone with the assumption anything over 20 was a power or shtick. In general most characters got a single concept related stat with NCM30, or if they were endurance hogs they could just assign it to CON. I had a broader SPD range with training or concept based benchmarks attached to it. For a normative superhero game I wouldn't have bothered, but it worked extremely well for that specific game.