Rant? Speed in Hero

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Will he also digest it twice as fast? I can stuff food down my face faster than I normally eat' date=' but it's not what I would call a pleasant dining experience. Not everything comes down to "moving as fast as a possibly can". Often, getting it done right is more important than getting it done fast.[/quote']

 

If the special effect justifying his SPD of 4 is right, sure! Maybe he is SPD 4 because he is a mutant who experiences time twice as fast as the rest of us. 4 actions per turn, double normal REC, etc etc.

 

And... I was unaware that operating at a SPD higher than 2 resulted in the degradation in a character's skill rolls for 'rushing things'. If I accept this reasoning, then any time someone takes an action at a higher SPD than 2 they are obviously 'rushing it' rather than 'doing it right'. A DEX 10 SPD 4 marksman who shoots his target 4 times in 12 seconds is obviously 'rushing' his shots compared to a DEX 10 SPD 2 marksman... he should be penalized!

 

 

 

 

PS : The speed eater better have a high DEX, or levels applicable to grab... a cheeseburger has a DCV of 6! (0 DEX, but 3 levels of shrinking! With just a base OCV of 3, the Speed eater will need to roll a 7- to successfully grab his cheeseburger)

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

It might have been my game that was being discussed' date=' but I think I pointed out my game wasn't a normative supers game and had different genre requirements. We had a hard NCM20 for everyone with the assumption anything over 20 was a [i']power [/i]or shtick. In general most characters got a single concept related stat with NCM30, or if they were endurance hogs they could just assign it to CON. I had a broader SPD range with training or concept based benchmarks attached to it. For a normative superhero game I wouldn't have bothered, but it worked extremely well for that specific game.

 

I'm not sure: But when conversations talk about hard caps they often turn to the unfairness of the point breaks

 

Basicaly one side says: If your concept says your human take Skill levels & lightning reflexes

 

Other side says: But that costs more for no extra gain that high dex guy gets (assumin a corelation of a metarule: that if you paid points for it it should benefit your character more than one who has not)

 

First side says: But your human, your not playing to your concept

 

Argument proceeds (on both sides)to be insults on how you just don't get it, are not playing right, on your parentage, and how you let cats sleep with dogs

Etc...

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I am going to for my next game insist on a power breakdown BTW: What is natural ability (Bodyjacker gets this when he takes over). How much is training, and how much is power (bodyjacker will normaly get this as well)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

And... I was unaware that operating at a SPD higher than 2 resulted in the degradation in a character's skill rolls for 'rushing things'. If I accept this reasoning' date=' then any time someone takes an action at a higher SPD than 2 they are obviously 'rushing it' rather than 'doing it right'. A DEX 10 SPD 4 marksman who shoots his target 4 times in 12 seconds is obviously 'rushing' his shots compared to a DEX 10 SPD 2 marksman... he should be penalized![/quote']Not at all. Non-combat Skills such as Lockpicking or Mechanics aren't timed anyway. They take as long as they take to complete. It is only when they're performed in combat that Phases have relevance, and thus so too does SPD.

 

A faster character performing an action is by definition taking "as long as it takes." The advantage he gets is that while the slower character is still working on it, the fast character has already finished his task and is moving on to something else (or doing it again). Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I think he has a point as well' date=' but his 'vehemence' got my hackles up [/quote']

 

Hackle away.

 

 

Let me clarify a bit:

 

Speed is a stat used in Combat Time in the Hero System.

 

Combat Time is whenever the GM feels time pressure is of the essence, this is most often reflected in (as the name implies) Combat. In that point, Speed is ultimately relevant in a combat situation, but more broadly simply in a high pressure situation.

 

There are, by the way, rules for using primarily Non-Combat Skill in a Combat Situation. Such as Mechanics. 5ER p45.

I would consider a "combat situation" any time the GM has moved the time scale to Combat Time (turns/segments/phases).

 

However, Speed is no tied to combat experience inherently. The original OP implied this rather strongly with the question "How many fights has he been in?" referring to the new players Scientist-Struck-By-Lightning.

 

And then went a tirade about how his group tied capability rather strongly to concept etc etc etc. A statement that, on the surface, I agree 100% with.

 

But, what about the "fast as lightning" part? Maybe this scientist moves (wait for it) "As Fast As Lightning" which could mean a high Speed. So the new player notes Speed 6 is easy to keep track of. The Experienced player berates them for it, asking a possibly completely irrelevant question.

 

Maybe instead of ranting against them, and throwing this benchmark table at them and telling them their concept doesn't call for such a Speed - go through the process of Reason From Effect, noting where In Their Campaign (because that's as far as the explanation will ever apply) where various Speed Benchmarks sit. And ask, what about their character would make them that fast.

 

So yes, Speed is relevant most often in Combat Time (and by extension Combat) in the Hero System.

No, it is not inherently tied to your Combat Experience as a person in any way.

I wasn't there but from the snippet posted I don't think the new player is going to have much fun if that's the way he's talked to in that group.

Yes, Trebuchet and I have a lot in common on game philosophy (and I would expect we'd have a lot of fun playing at the same table) but no two people I know of messh 100% when it comes to game philosophy, so please be careful not to mix up our respective statements and thoughts.

 

You can go back to your regularly scheduled hackling now.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

If the special effect justifying his SPD of 4 is right' date=' sure! Maybe he is SPD 4 because he is a mutant who experiences time twice as fast as the rest of us. 4 actions per turn, double normal REC, etc etc. [/quote']

 

SFX can definitely change things in my books.

 

And... I was unaware that operating at a SPD higher than 2 resulted in the degradation in a character's skill rolls for 'rushing things'.

 

I doubt I have higher than a SPD 2, but I normally eat slower than I necessarily could if I just wanted to stuff my face.

 

If I accept this reasoning' date=' then any time someone takes an action at a higher SPD than 2 they are obviously 'rushing it' rather than 'doing it right'. A DEX 10 SPD 4 marksman who shoots his target 4 times in 12 seconds is obviously 'rushing' his shots compared to a DEX 10 SPD 2 marksman... he should be penalized![/quote']

 

He's taking actions that require 1/2 phase, and he's using 1/2 phase. That's not rushing.

 

If he wants to take an action that requires more than 1 phase (such as shelving library books, picking a lock, fixing a car, etc.) he's outside the realm of phases, so he either takes the turn, minute, whatever the base time requirement is, or he suffers penalties for moving down the time chart. That's simply the way the rules work.

 

PS : The speed eater better have a high DEX' date=' or levels applicable to grab... a cheeseburger has a DCV of 6! (0 DEX, but 3 levels of shrinking! With just a base OCV of 3, the Speed eater will need to roll a 7- to successfully grab his cheeseburger) [/quote']

 

The cheeseburger is making no attempt to evade, so its DCV falls to zero (it's unconscious).

[Checkmate]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

It might have been my game that was being discussed' date=' but I think I pointed out my game wasn't a normative supers game and had different genre requirements. We had a hard NCM20 for everyone with the assumption anything over 20 was a [i']power [/i]or shtick. In general most characters got a single concept related stat with NCM30, or if they were endurance hogs they could just assign it to CON. I had a broader SPD range with training or concept based benchmarks attached to it. For a normative superhero game I wouldn't have bothered, but it worked extremely well for that specific game.

It was actually my campaign, and Hugh Neilson is thinking of the same thread. I was wrong however, he wasn't the one that said it didn't simulate the genre, but in the time it's taken me to write this I've forgotten who it actually was. While I really don't recommend reading it, if you're curiosity is piqued, the 27 page monster starts here

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Ah, you're right! Being unconscious (or DEX 1-... both set the character to 0 DCV) is in the last category of things applied in the DCV checklist. Still... Even with a DCV of 0, The Eater misses picking up his cheeseburger 1/6th of the time (he has only a 13- to hit a DCV 0 object)!

 

All inanimate objects being DCV 0, regardless of their size, makes for some problems too, though. It means that, under HERO rules, its just as easy to hit a bottlecap taped to the wall as it is to hit a dartboard hung there, when tossing darts from 25 feet (4 hexes) away. (note I didnt use the bullseye, as the small target in order to avoid a 'hit locations on a dartboard' aside)

 

Bottlecap = DCV 0

Dartboard = DCV 0

 

It also brings up the question of how one makes a character who has DCV even while unconscious. I had used DCV vs grab levels with Persistent advantage, but apparently that isnt within the rules, as being unconscious is the last modifier applied (set DCV to 0) whereas levels are only step 2 of 7. Perhaps I should have bought Persistent STR, only to escape grabs... but then I didnt see being stronger helping all that much... a stronger person would just be squeezing a watermelon seed, as it were.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

It also brings up the question of how one makes a character who has DCV even while unconscious. I had used DCV vs grab levels with Persistent advantage' date=' but apparently that isnt within the rules, as being unconscious is the last modifier applied (set DCV to 0) whereas levels are only step 2 of 7. Perhaps I should have bought Persistent STR, only to escape grabs... but then I didnt see being stronger helping all that much... a stronger person would just be squeezing a watermelon seed, as it were.[/quote']

 

Common and Dramatic Sense.

 

If the GM thinks it's appropriate that you can't miss your cheeseburger and that size modifiers apply to the bottle cap 25 feet away - it's appropriate.

 

Never let the rules get in the way of having fun, making sense, and generally interfering with the game at hand.

[casualplayer]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

In the kingdom of the blind, the sighted man is king. In the kingdom of the 2 SPDers, the 3 SPDer is king. It's all relative.

 

I have to say that the more I see of Killer Shrike's superhero campaign write-ups, the closer I get to taking a Sharpie to my HERO books and dropping all the write-ups SPDs by 2 (and DEXs by 9.) So many problems solved by getting the SPD (and DEX) genie back in the bottle.

 

SPD affects far more than how many times you can act in a Turn. It makes Continuous powers progressively more END costly while putting more and more distance between post-12 RECs as it increases. It acts as a movement multiplier. It acts as Flash defense, or at least resilience. SPD advantage allows you improved access to all the 100% Damage Reduction variants (Block, Dive for Cover, Missile Deflect) while maintaining attack frequency parity. There are more, but I'm tired and not willing to look them up right now.

 

Speed, IMO, is overused and misunderstood. I really think that nekkidcarpenter's SPD Chart is right on and excellent benchmarks to work from. I also think that Hugh has an excellent point that if good ol' Crusader had been built more sparingly SPDwise, many problems would have been nipped in the bud.

 

Again, it's all relative and I'm sure future HERO write-ups will continue to work from the mean 5 SPD. But how many recurring complaints just fade away to nothingness if that mean is adjusted to 3?

[rjcurrie]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

If a GM won't let you have a SPD higher than 4 because you're a trained normal, change the origin to one that will let you have the SPD you want (assuming it falls within the campaign limits). Basically, if you limit SPD based on origins, then certain origins will simply never be taken.

 

As for SPD levels within a campaign, it depends on your view of superbeings (including those that are supposedly "normals") vs. normals. If you want normals to have a better chance to take on supers, then by all means, go with lower SPD limits. However, if you're like me and you want supers to pretty much run roughshod over normals then higher SPD limits are more appropriate.

 

At least that's my 2/100 of a loonie.

[Outsider]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I find that its their PD that usually lets supers run roughshod over normals. Of course, I just use Standard Effect and no hit locations on 'real weapons'. So a heavy assault rifle does 7 Body and 28 Stun, which tends to bounce off of bricks entirely, and do maybe 3 stun against lower PD archetypes (who are usually much harder to hit)

 

I suppose even supers need to worry a bit about the guy using something that fires .50 Browning, though.

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

In the kingdom of the blind, the sighted man is king. In the kingdom of the 2 SPDers, the 3 SPDer is king. It's all relative.

 

I have to say that the more I see of Killer Shrike's superhero campaign write-ups, the closer I get to taking a Sharpie to my HERO books and dropping all the write-ups SPDs by 2 (and DEXs by 9.) So many problems solved by getting the SPD (and DEX) genie back in the bottle.

 

SPD affects far more than how many times you can act in a Turn. It makes Continuous powers progressively more END costly while putting more and more distance between post-12 RECs as it increases. It acts as a movement multiplier. It acts as Flash defense, or at least resilience. SPD advantage allows you improved access to all the 100% Damage Reduction variants (Block, Dive for Cover, Missile Deflect) while maintaining attack frequency parity. There are more, but I'm tired and not willing to look them up right now.

 

Speed, IMO, is overused and misunderstood. I really think that nekkidcarpenter's SPD Chart is right on and excellent benchmarks to work from. I also think that Hugh has an excellent point that if good ol' Crusader had been built more sparingly SPDwise, many problems would have been nipped in the bud.

 

Again, it's all relative and I'm sure future HERO write-ups will continue to work from the mean 5 SPD. But how many recurring complaints just fade away to nothingness if that mean is adjusted to 3?

 

It's a language thing: The Genie has NEVER BEEN in the bottle, for it to have been the game would have started with what some people consider reasonable, sense as far as Hero product number 2 (Enemies) we have had trained normals with Dex's of 33 and speeds of 7.

 

Note this is not a value question on wether the dex should or should not be lowered, just the phrase "the SPD (and DEX) genie back in the bottle" (Emphasis mine) just really annoyes me because I feel it is misleading*

 

*I don't think it is intentianaly being used to mislead, just that it is by its nature misleading

[rjcurrie]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Again' date=' it's all relative and I'm sure future HERO write-ups will continue to work from the mean 5 SPD. But how many recurring complaints just fade away to nothingness if that mean is adjusted to 3?[/quote']

 

Well, those complaints may just fade away to nothing, but are you sure they won't be replaced by complaints that the SPD of HERO published characters is too low? And what if you there are more complaints against low SPDs than there are against high SPDs?

 

I suspect that many people who read threads such as this and agree with SPDs as they are just sort of shake their heads at the complaints and move on. I certainly know that I do that with many threads.

[JmOz]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I personaly don't care, I want to know the standards but am willing to play either way, what I find unreasonable would be being told that if you want to be human then you need to take NCM, seriously I want the points to be equal so mutant and human can be equivalent...

[rjcurrie]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I find that its their PD that usually lets supers run roughshod over normals. Of course, I just use Standard Effect and no hit locations on 'real weapons'. So a heavy assault rifle does 7 Body and 28 Stun, which tends to bounce off of bricks entirely, and do maybe 3 stun against lower PD archetypes (who are usually much harder to hit)

 

I suppose even supers need to worry a bit about the guy using something that fires .50 Browning, though.

 

 

Well, of SPD isn't the only stat that lets normals run roughshod over normals. It just always seemed to me that supers acted much more often than normals in the comics. The other thing that a major difference in SPD between supers and normals (and remember we're talking real SPD 2 o 3 normals, not agents, and certainly not "trained normals") gives you in a combat is more normals in danger for the heroes to have to look out for. If a super battle is happening with an average SPD of 5, it is more likely that the poor normals will have much more trouble getting out of the way of the battle than they would if the battle was happening with an average SPD of 3.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

I personaly don't care' date=' I want to know the standards but am willing to play either way, what I find unreasonable would be being told that if you want to be human then you need to take NCM, seriously I want the points to be equal so mutant and human can be equivalent...[/quote']

 

Which is why NCM is not recommended for superheroic games.

 

Besides, in reality, "trained normal" is just another absurd reason for superheroic abilities. It really no different "than covered by chemicals and struck by lightning", "alien rocketed to Earth as an infant", "given a magic artifact by an alien poilce force", "built a suit of powered armor" or any of the other origins given for superheores over the years.

 

In the specific case of Batman, I always viewed it as Bruce Wayne being a normal human who trained himself with such an obsession (that is, far beyond what any sane human) that he actually reached superhuman levels.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

It acts as Flash defense' date=' or at least resilience.[/quote']

 

Oooh, one of my favorite rules mistakes. Flash is now Per Segement not Phase, so is decoupled from the targets Speed characteristic. Speed12 and Speed2 are Flashed for the same amount of time.

 

(sorry, not picking on you specifically. I see this one a lot from many people.)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Speaking as someone that has played it both ways, I personally prefer keeping SPD in check. I think it works much better. I could justify it with a long list of mechanical and flavor differences. But I'm not going to bother because ultimately people that think 6 is the minimum SPD will continue to think that way. Its like talking religion or politics; largely pointless.

 

Those new to the system, like SableWyvern, I would just point out that you can always add more of something if you need to, but its much harder to take away. So, if you must err, my recommendation is to err on the side of less and only add more if it seems needful.

[OzMike]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

It was actually my campaign' date=' and Hugh Neilson is thinking of the same thread. I was wrong however, he wasn't the one that said it didn't simulate the genre, but in the time it's taken me to write this I've forgotten who it actually was. While I really don't recommend reading it, if you're curiosity is piqued, the 27 page monster starts here

 

And I apologise for starting it

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

If I may point out, slower SPDs will result in longer combats.

 

Slower SPDs mean a higher ratio of post-12 recoveries versus Phases, means fewer hits in between recoveries. Higher SPDs mean more hits between post-12, and a higher chance of knocking a combatant down into GM discretion land before they get that post-12.

 

Just an observation.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Personally, I've always found SPD5 to be a good speed in Supers games and tend to stick to it. If I change I almost always drop to 4. My Speedster was Speed 6, and I haven't played that character in years, since 4E I believe.

 

In Heroic games I like 3-4 SPD, and 5-6 being only for the supremely fantastic things (like particularly nasty monsters in Fantasy).

[Mentor]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

Umm, if it bothers you then maybe you're playing the wrong game because that is EXACTLY what Speed does in Hero. There are ways to buy powers that let you accomplish noncombat things faster than normal, but buying up your Speed plain and simply makes you faster in a fight.

 

If you think about it, you'll see that keeping Speeds in a narrow group based around NCM is the way comics deal with Speed as well.

 

A Big Splash page with a whole group of AIM guys firing at Spidey. Over the course of a turn while the agents are firing at him, how many different actions does he take relative to thiers? Yes, he attacks several of them, but is he performing a Sweep or is he actually devoting phases to each guy? More importantly, can he attack with his swingline, move across the room, open a door, walk inside, sit at a computer, make a Computer roll, go back outside, web some guys, move up the side of the building out of sight on a balcony, check his blackberry, etc. while the goons have only fired once? It's pretty rare in comics to see characters that you can verifiably say have more than a point of Speed over someone else. Even Megavillains don't literally run rings around normals, or if they do its usually a special effect of high Dex rather than ridiculously high Speed.

 

So look again at the chart. Decide each character's ability to deal with high pressure situations relative to the baseline (Speed 2). Then everyone in the game chops their Speed back to a sane level and saves 20 points. Then they no longer need a ridiculous End Reserve and they save 10 more points, and another 10 points off their Rec and End.

 

And pretty soon they have enough points saved up to buy up their Speed.

With all due respect, a game in which the Speed Chart has up to a 12 SPD means tha having a PC with a SPD as high as 12 is part of the Hero system ands appropriate to the game. The penalty is usually low defenses and low attacks, so they seldom occur.

 

Now, for those who are stuck on reality, ask yourself how many punches can be thrown or bullets fired accurately from a gun in a twelve second period in a combat situation? The average for someone well trained is approx. 1 per second. The difference between pros and novices is that big.

 

More to the point, unless one wants a street level campaign, what is wrong with a Super team in which the PCs are twice as fast as the SEAL team? Why call in the Avengers or Justice League if the SWAT team is just as capable?

[Cancer]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

If I may point out, slower SPDs will result in longer combats.

 

Slower SPDs mean a higher ratio of post-12 recoveries versus Phases, means fewer hits in between recoveries. Higher SPDs mean more hits between post-12, and a higher chance of knocking a combatant down into GM discretion land before they get that post-12.

 

The problem is that the quantum of SPD difference is too large at low SPD values. Put another way: lower speeds also amplify the effects of SPD differences, and make those SPD differences perhaps the dominant factor in deciding outcome of combat. Getting 3 actions to my 2 in a turn cycle is a far greater factor than getting 8 actions to my 7. Unless there's something else going on that's worth rather more than the 10 Real Points that a point of SPD costs, the guy on the slow end of a 3:2 mismatch hasn't got a prayer. By the same token, SPD inflation should reduce the value of SPD differences, but things like being stunned or knocked down keep that value high nonetheless.

 

I admit I've had a long-running dissatisfaction with turn-based personal combat systems, since those invariably turn small differences in time to react to an event into artificially large, repeatable, exploitable differences in ability to perform actions, and smashing the varying complexity of actions into the same artificially structured lockstep.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't come across or worked out anything else, so I have no suggestion to offer in the place of lockstep turn-based systems.

[casualplayer]

Re: Rant? Speed in Hero

 

It's a language thing: The Genie has NEVER BEEN in the bottle, for it to have been the game would have started with what some people consider reasonable, sense as far as Hero product number 2 (Enemies) we have had trained normals with Dex's of 33 and speeds of 7.

 

Note this is not a value question on wether the dex should or should not be lowered, just the phrase "the SPD (and DEX) genie back in the bottle" (Emphasis mine) just really annoyes me because I feel it is misleading*

 

*I don't think it is intentianaly being used to mislead, just that it is by its nature misleading

 

So what you're saying is that I need a new saying? If that's what you're saying, just say it is all I'm saying.

 

If I remember right you're talking about good ol' Mongoose, with 33/7. King Cobra should have bit that sucker's head off and spared us generations of 30/6 Martial Artists with no other back story than "I studied hard."

 

Like I said before, it's all relative. However DEX/SPD disparity is the biggest reason why genre-bending blows up. The supremely agile thief (4 SPD) has reactions as fast as the plodding superheroic brick (4 SPD?) Hmmmm, problem.