Requires skill roll

[Sunday_Gamer]

Can you use an existing skill for this?

Something like fastdraw?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Yes - that's what it's intended for. In fact it's value will change if you have a very high or very low Skill Roll with the skill in question.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Er... it does? Far as I know, RSR is set, GA. 1:10 -1/2, 1:20 -1/4 & 1:5 -1; am I mistaken?

[Simon]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Er... it does? Far as I know' date=' RSR is set, GA. 1:10 -1/2, 1:20 -1/4 & 1:5 -1; am I mistaken?[/quote']

No, you're correct.

 

It is adjusted based on the value of the roll when based off of a Characteristic roll, but not when based off of a Skill Roll.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

I suspect the answer will hold but let me clarify. If I buy a multipower and give the whole thing "requires a skill roll" can I use any skill I want as the roll or do I need a skill roll for the multipower in specific?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Might be easier if you gave a more specific example, but generally you can use any skill so long as the GM feels the it's fitting for the concept and SFX.

 

The Power Skill is often used for these sort of things, but there are plenty of other skills that would work for many constructs. All depends on what you are trying to do though.

[Basil]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

I suspect the answer will hold but let me clarify. If I buy a multipower and give the whole thing "requires a skill roll" can I use any skill I want as the roll or do I need a skill roll for the multipower in specific?

 

You do have to specifiy which Skill is required for RSR. In general, this means the same Skill for each power in the Multipower. However, if your GM permits (based on dramatic and common sense), you might have different Skills for the various slots in the Multipower. Even then, though, you do have to specify which Skill is used with each slot. As well, if the Multipower per se has an RSR (e.g., to change CP's from slot to slot), that Skill has to be specified.

 

The choosing of the Skill(s) should happen when the Multipower is first created, though your GM might let you choose a Skill later if you are adding a new slot to an existing Multopower (and, of course, if he allows different Skills in the same Multipower).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Never really did understand RSR, and tend not to use it. Players who want that sort of mularkey get to use an appropriate activation roll, with a promise that I will apply situational modifiers to it.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

IIRC, RSR differs from Activation Roll in one (or more) key way(s). A constant power with RSR stays on when the RSR is made, and stays on until turned off. A constant power with Activation Roll is on or off depending upon the roll each of the character's Phases.

 

But I could be wrong, as I don't have my books with me. :|

[Edsel]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

RSR is normally a -1/2 Limitation as long as it is based on a normal skill with a cost of 3/2. You can use a background skill (cost 2/1) for RSR but the Limitation is then only worth -1/4.

 

Activation Rolls either turn the power on or they don't, there is no middle ground at all. RSR can, if the GM feels it is appropriate, partially succeed in the case of a barely missed roll. RSR is subject to skill roll modifiers. Activation Rolls are never subject to skill roll modifiers.

 

Stevezilla is correct. If a constant power has an Activation Roll then that activation roll must be made every phase for the constant power. RSR rolls usually only have to be made once even for a constant power. Activation roll are appropriate for abilities that require no skill to use and, of course, RSR means that skill is required to use the power.

 

I do have my book in my lap. The rules are all on pages 304-305 of 5ER, or pages 199-200 of FREd.

[Comic]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

So, if you have a multipower with RSR on the framework (to change slots), you can also have a different RSR on some (or all) slots to activate the powers?

 

E.G.:

Multipower Trick Gun, OAF (-1), RSR Fast Draw (-1/2: 75 AP, 30 Real)

a) ultra 5d6 RKA 'Alchemical Round' RSR Analyze Material (-1/2: 75 AP, Slot costs 2 Real)

ultra 3d6+1 Autofire 5 Shots (+1/2) RSR Sleight of Hand (-1/2: 75 AP, Slot costs 2 Real)

c) ultra 15d6 EB 'Dragonsbreath Round' (Slot costs 3 Real)

[Edsel]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

As I understand it that is correct.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

IIRC, RSR differs from Activation Roll in one (or more) key way(s). A constant power with RSR stays on when the RSR is made, and stays on until turned off. A constant power with Activation Roll is on or off depending upon the roll each of the character's Phases.

 

But I could be wrong, as I don't have my books with me. :|

 

Yes, one of the other reasons I don't use it:

 

I have to make a Gadget Skill roll to turn on my force field, but I want it to stay on then without any bother. I have 17- in Gadget Skill. Can I get -1/2 limitation on that?

 

Well, yes, according to the book. Just doesn't seem that one was thought all the way through.

 

I have a bouse rule with activation rolls that you can pick ANY period, when you build the power, and that is how long the power stays on for when activated, and how often you can make a repeat attempt.

 

So you can get a Force Field 11- Activation roll (5 minutes).

 

That means that you can make the attempt to turm it on, and if yuo succeed, you can use it for up to 5 minutes, but you can't make another roll to try and activate for another 5 minutes.

 

Not had any problems with that in practice.

[JimLotFP]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Has anyone brought up that RSR imposes a -1 penalty per 10 active points in the power? So, say that the skill is 17-, if that power is 50 active points, you're needing to make a 12- roll. Not an inconsiderable disadvantage...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Yes, one of the other reasons I don't use it:

 

I have to make a Gadget Skill roll to turn on my force field, but I want it to stay on then without any bother. I have 17- in Gadget Skill. Can I get -1/2 limitation on that?

 

Yep, that may be the base roll but you left out some important details. What are the active points in the gadget-based Force Field? The default RSR mechanic is that the roll is reduced by -1/10 active points. The penalty can be reduced to -1/20 active but then the Limitation is only worth -1/4.

 

Also, what does the extra time in your (Time Delay Advantage-like) house rule represent? RSR represents the SKILL required to do something. Time is always a factor in the use of skills. The Activation Roll Limitation is primarily intended for abilities that are intrinsically unreliable (like partial coverage body armor). The jukebox from the old TV series Happy Days could be modeled with RSR. Fonzy just had the best roll of all the characters such that he could operate it by the simplest gesture whereas everyone else (with everyman skill only) had to actually use the old fashioned method of entering coins and making a selection. They could try snapping or wall slapping like the Fonz but it might take a very long time to work.

[Basil]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

IIRC, RSR differs from Activation Roll in one (or more) key way(s). A constant power with RSR stays on when the RSR is made, and stays on until turned off. A constant power with Activation Roll is on or off depending upon the roll each of the character's Phases.

 

But I could be wrong, as I don't have my books with me. :|

 

You remembered correctly. From Fred, page 200:

"Fourth, if the Power being Limited is Constant, an Activation Roll must be made every Phase the Power is in use, but RSR rolls usually only have to be made once (when the Power is first activated)."

[Outsider]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Also.. a charactre who takes RSR has to buy the skill that the RSR is going to roll against, and that costs points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Also.. a charactre who takes RSR has to buy the skill that the RSR is going to roll against' date=' and that costs points.[/quote']

 

Yup. 60 AP power with RSR costs 40. Skill roll 17- (assume a 23 base stat) costs 9 points, and means the skill is successful on 11-. Act 11- would have cost 30 with no skill required. For 40 points, it could act 14-, and you still have 8 points left. For 1 extra point, you can buy the skill at 17- (if you wanted it in the first place) and have a 14- rather than an 11-.

[Nekkidcarpenter]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

[quote=Hyper-Man;1386892

The jukebox from the old TV series Happy Days could be modeled with RSR. Fonzy just had the best roll of all the characters such that he could operate it by the simplest gesture whereas everyone else (with everyman skill only) had to actually use the old fashioned method of entering coins and making a selection. They could try snapping or wall slapping like the Fonz but it might take a very long time to work.

 

 

Heyyyy!

 

 

 

Now I have to make up a Happy Days scenario.

[Outsider]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

RSR + Skill is only potentially superior to an equivalent AR when the cost of the RSR powers + RSR Skill is less than the cost of the same powers with an equivalent AR, or the RSR skill is something that the character gains value from independently of its use with the RSR limitation. The only time the point value of RSR + Skill can possibly be lower is when the target number is 15- or better (ie RSR is always a -1/2 lim, but AR 15- is only a -1/4 lim)

 

SO..

 

For 60 AP powers, one needs a 21- skill roll to obtain a 15- success rate. Such a skill, independent of collateral benefits (ie it does nothing else, and isnt based on a stat that the player was going to buy up anyway) costs 23 points. The RSRed powers get an additional -1/4 lim over the AR version. So what number of points need to be spent such that an additional -1/4 lim saves at least 23 points?

 

With no other limitations involved, its pretty high.

 

X/1.25 = X/1.5+23

Get rid of the denominators (Multiply both sides by 1.25, then by 1.5)

X = 1.25X/1.5 + 28.75

1.5X = 1.25X + 43.125

Move all the Xs to one side

.25X = 43.125

Divide both sides by .25 to get a whole X on one side

X = 172.5

 

173 points worth of powers have to use RSR in order to make up for the cost of the RSR skill. With other limitations involved, this becomes even worse.

 

If there are -1 1/2 other lims on the powers (say Gestures, Incantations, and OAF.. a magic pool) then the numbers look like this :

 

X/2.75 = X/3 + 23

Following the same steps :

X = 2.75X/3 + 63.25

3x = 2.75X + 189.75

.25X = 189.75

X = 759

 

 

Basically, with 60 AP powers, its pretty much -never- worth buying RSR over AR, at least on a points only basis, even when the RSR is worth 1/2 and the AR only -1/4.

 

 

Basically, I see only 3 advantages to RSR over AR.

 

1) For a mere 4 more points more than in the above examples, an RSR can have a success roll of 17-, meaning that it basically always works. Then you slap on a large Side Effect (only on failure of the skill roll) and the differential is a lot more than -1/4.

 

2) As mentioned in earlier posts, RSR rolls once, then the power works reliably, whereas AR rolls every phase it is used.

 

3) The RSR skill roll can take extra time, increasing the odds of success for no additional character point expentidure. If the player normally needs a full phase to use his skill to activate the power, he can instead take an hour, and get a +6 to the skill roll. Theoretically, complimantary skills could come into play also.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

I disagree. The thing is that the cost of the skill is nowhere near that high, as everyone has at least one skill, and in a supers game, it probably starts at a pretty high level. Moreover, a lot of powers don't need to approach the 60 point cap in a lot of games...

 

Character 1 has a 15/15 force field and wants it to activate on a 15- roll.

 

He can buy 15- activation (-1/4) – cost 24 points

 

Or he can buy RSR (1/2) – cost 20 points and an appropriate level of skill.

 

Now assuming a superhero game, where each character is going to have at least one skill in any event, we can discount the 3 point skill cost, and assume a roll (based on a superhero average characteristic of 23) in the region of 14- for that skill. It is going to cost you 8 points to make that skill 18-, for a total cost of 28 points.

 

Now, assume that the character also has 15” of flight and wants it to activate on a 15- roll.

 

Activation roll costs 24 points again.

 

RSR costs 20 points again, but you don’t need to buy the skill again.

 

You are even on points, and for constant powers, at a massive advantage with RSR.

 

A third power tips the balance right over.

 

Working with 60 AP powers:

 

Character 1 has a 20/20 force field at half END and wants it to activate on a 15- roll.

 

He can buy 15- activation (-1/4) – cost 48 points

 

Or he can buy RSR (1/2) – cost 40 points and an appropriate level of skill.

 

Now assuming a superhero game, where each character is going to have at least one skill in any event, we can discount the 3 point skill cost, and assume a roll (based on a superhero average characteristic of 23) in the region of 14- for that skill. It is going to cost you 14 points to make that skill 21-, for a total cost of 54 points.

 

Now, assume that the character also has 20” of flight at half END and wants it to activate on a 15- roll.

 

Activation roll costs 48 points again.

 

RSR costs 40 points again, but you don’t need to buy the skill again.

 

You are already ahead on points, and for constant powers, at a massive advantage with RSR.

 

You can also buy skills for 2/1, although they don't get the advantage of high characteristics they are very cheap indeed.

 

In addition you can reliably activate your RSR powers at a less than optimal level: turn on your flight at 40 points, and the activation goes up to 17-!

 

RSR gives you a lot of advantages at very little actual extra cost even for a first power, and if you have mroe than one, it is a clear winner.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Yep, that may be the base roll but you left out some important details. What are the active points in the gadget-based Force Field? The default RSR mechanic is that the roll is reduced by -1/10 active points. The penalty can be reduced to -1/20 active but then the Limitation is only worth -1/4.

 

Also, what does the extra time in your (Time Delay Advantage-like) house rule represent? RSR represents the SKILL required to do something. Time is always a factor in the use of skills. The Activation Roll Limitation is primarily intended for abilities that are intrinsically unreliable (like partial coverage body armor). The jukebox from the old TV series Happy Days could be modeled with RSR. Fonzy just had the best roll of all the characters such that he could operate it by the simplest gesture whereas everyone else (with everyman skill only) had to actually use the old fashioned method of entering coins and making a selection. They could try snapping or wall slapping like the Fonz but it might take a very long time to work.

 

 

See the above post on point costs.

 

You identify some of the resons for my dislike. Fonz and Richie Cunningham buy 'Machine Mastery RSR' based on their highest skill. Fonz gets a much better power for the same cost.

 

Moreover, RSR is great for cheap powers and either rubbish for expensive ones, or requires ridiculously high skill levels that can skew an entire campaign.

 

To my mind, a limitation of a given value should have a similar effect on utility irrespective of the base cost of the power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

See the above post on point costs.

 

You identify some of the resons for my dislike. Fonz and Richie Cunningham buy 'Machine Mastery RSR' based on their highest skill. Fonz gets a much better power for the same cost.

 

Moreover, RSR is great for cheap powers and either rubbish for expensive ones, or requires ridiculously high skill levels that can skew an entire campaign.

 

To my mind, a limitation of a given value should have a similar effect on utility irrespective of the base cost of the power.

 

Something else to consider.

 

Say you have a character with multiple abilities with the RSR Limitation which all depend upon the same skill. If that character tries to start using more than one of the abilities in the same phase he takes the -1/10 active points penalty for ALL the abilities he's trying to use that phase. If the character instead had the same abilities with Activate Rolls instead of RSR the Activate Rolls would remain unchanged.

 

(edit: this was changed in 5er)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Many of us forget that a RSR need not determine success or failure of the power itself. In the valdorian Age, for example, all magic spells have RSR, but the spell succeeds even if you fail your roll - you just incur some debt to the nasty spirits who grant you your magic. Likewise all sorts of other "successes" can occur on a failed RSR:

 

- power works but takes more time than usual

- power works but has some random side effect (or even a Side Effect)

- power works at reduced Active Points

- power works but costs more END than normal

etc.

 

This makes RSR more fairly costed compared to Activation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Requires skill roll

 

Something else to consider.

 

Say you have a character with multiple abilities with the RSR Limitation which all depend upon the same skill. If that character tries to start using more than one of the abilities in the same phase he takes the -1/10 active points penalty for ALL the abilities he's trying to use that phase. If the character instead had the same abilities with Activate Rolls instead of RSR the Activate Rolls would remain unchanged.

 

I think that would be the case if you activated multiple atatck powers to use in an MPA and they were all besed on the same skill. Mind you, even if they weren't based on the same skill I think the penalty may accumulate to all of them, as the book says that you calculate the skill roll penalty on the AP/10 of all powers activated simultaneously. If you were activating FF THEN flight THEN EB (all in one phase, but not simultaneously) you make three rolls, but each is only at the AP/10 penalty for THAT power alone.