SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

[JmOz]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Been a long time since I last saw Enemies

 

 

If I blow up a balloon, it's inflated. Whether or not I put more air into it, it's still inflated. Assuming no air escapes and the material holds up, it can remain inflated, at the same size, perpetually. It's still inflated.

 

In other words, inflation isn't something that has to continue increasing over time. It's something that can happen at some point and never go back down. SPD and DEX were inflated heavily early in the game's construction and they haven't gone down yet. They remain inflated to this day. If you want to build characters for the Champions setting, you have to pay a tax on your character equal to the degree of inflation or else you fall way behind the power curve of the game.

 

 

 

Think about someone like Cyclops. Outside of his eye-blasts, he's just a well-trained normal. He doesn't have physical abilities that put him above, say, a special forces soldier. He's no stronger or faster, no better trained. He should fit under NCM for everything other than his eye-blasts. I don't think the comics have ever (with any consistency, anyway) depicted this otherwise.

 

That isn't the only example, but it makes it very easy to illustrate the concept. Most characters who lack physical powers are no faster or more agile than their normal counterparts. An Olympic gymnast in the comics will be significantly more agile than the host of non-agility-based heroes. In DC Comics, Batman isn't someone who would shame Olympic gymnasts, he's an Olympic-level gymnast (even if gold medal level), and should be statted accordingly. At least one normal human lives who is better than him. He's phenomenal for a human, but he's still human.

 

Champions forgot about that in building its original setting and has maintained that forgetfulness over the years. Now it's an institution: the average non-physically-powered superhero is both faster than NCM and more agile than NCM. It was inflated early on and it remains inflated today. If you want to use the characters from the Champions Universe for your game, you have to inflate your characters similarly or they won't work out well.

 

If you don't want to go that route, you can do away with the inflation and save a ton of points on characters. Or you can accept that every superhero is agile and fast to a mind-boggling degree, regardless of their power set. Your game is your game and you should enjoy it.

 

It's not always a "realistic" thing so much as an internal consistency thing.

 

Some people want to play a relatively normal guy that has a radiation accident and gains powers. Or some geeky super scientist who invents a gizmo that helps him fight crime. Or a wheel chair bound mentalist that just happens to be the most powerful telepath on the planet. Or whatever.

 

The problem is if your powers don't include exceptional training of some kind or some type of superhuman speed or agility, there is no reason why putting on spandex suddenly increases your DEX 10 to 15 points higher than Joe Normal. Yet that seems to be what happens with many characters and I think that is what people take issue with.

 

 

 

on inflation: But at one time the balloon was flat, and it did grow, Hero has never been that low

 

 

Mind you, it's quite arguable if that is an accurate emulation of the genre or not, since different writers and editors do things different ways... I can certainly cite plenty of examples of it going both ways.

 

moved this part, that is EXACTLY my point, so coming in and saying that it should not be this way is wrong, saying I don't like it, or I would prefer it this other way is fine, but to many of these discusions basicaly come off to me as "You're doing it wrong, why should GL have a dex of 23 he's just an artist" the reason why is because of what he does, not his backstory.

 

I also submit that as we all know that NCM is not a hard limit that the problem is a misconception of what NCM is, it is a point of diminishing gain, the point where normals stop, and legends start.

 

I just looked it up in my old copy of western hero (A heroic game with NCM), 2 of the characters sheets for real people had Dex 23, one more had 26 (and a speed of 5). NOw an argument can be made for how accurate the write ups are, and also how relevent considering it is a 4th edition product. but my point is that NCM should not be looked at as a max, and if it is not a max we get into wether or not the points should be adjusted by backstory, a tricky propotion.

 

As I said earlier, the range is something for the GM to decide, I just personaly get tired of feeling some people are judging my game harshly because I like a higher bar for heroes than normals better imitated the style I want...

[bwdemon]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

on inflation: But at one time the balloon was flat' date=' and it did grow, Hero has never been that low[/quote']

 

The balloon was flat before the first inflated characters were made.

 

As I said earlier, the range is something for the GM to decide, I just personaly get tired of feeling some people are judging my game harshly because I like a higher bar for heroes than normals better imitated the style I want...

 

I don't hold the players of a game accountable for the actions of the game's creators and custodians.

 

Had the game's designers gone with non-inflated DEX/SPD scores from the game's inception, would you feel like you had to pump up the DEX/SPD scores in your game to adequately reflect the capabilities of homage builds?

[MitchellS]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Had the game's designers gone with non-inflated DEX/SPD scores from the game's inception' date=' would you feel like you had to pump up the DEX/SPD scores in your game to adequately reflect the capabilities of homage builds?[/quote']

Keep in mind that back in 1e we didn't know what a normal person was. Champions II was the first book to accurately start stating out normal people. Prior to that the sample characters were the only examples there were. Armadillo, Crusader, Green Dragon, Pulsar and others were the first benchmarks the game ever gave us. There was nothing to indicate that Pulsar's 23 dex and 5 speed was exceptionally extraordinary.

 

If anything it was the company's decision to start producing other genres with a different benchmark system which caused any conflict and introduced the idea of stat inflation. If Espionage and Fantasy Hero had used the same benchmark system there would never be any concept of stat inflation in the game for people to complain about now.

[gojira]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

He specifically asked for superheroic martial artists stats.

 

Oops. I totally missed that. Superheroes can have speed 4 or 5 just by virtue of possessing a character sheet. While as GM I think I'd perfer more backstory (not just a couple of classes and almost a black belt) for higher speed, I don't have a problem with a super martial arts character with speed 6 or more. I think I stated this already, just the rest of my first post was colored by missing the "super" part of the OP's question.

 

Since trained normals such as cops and soldiers will likely have SPD 3 and elite normal humans such as SEALs, agents, "real world" class martial artists and the like will probably have SPD 4, ....

 

Champions cop's have speed 2. I just checked. I'd rate all special forces at speed 3 and special forces who are also ninja-pirates at speed 4. That's my own personal campaign scale, YMMV.

 

This is a mistake' date=' speed 4, even in heroic games (or with NCM), is only the point of diminishing gain, anyone with the points can go above speed 4 at double the cost. The suggested max for humans is 7 IIRC[/quote']

 

I dunno much about NCM, I don't play in Heroic games. My scale is from Champions II. Normals are speed 2. "Trained" people are speed 3, if they're lucky. Cops (imo) don't receive enough actual combat training, nor do they experience combat on a regular enough basis, to qualify for speed 3. Speed 4 was described as the peak of human physical capability and was supposed to be very rare, iirc.

 

Just explaining where I get my ideas from, you of course may have any scale in your campaigns you like.

 

Personally though, I think if I was running fantasy hero, SPD would be in the 2-4 range, centering on 3. Speed 2 for noncoms like Hobbits with no training, merchants and dottering old wizards. Speed 3 pretty much every one else, with the super fast (elf, assassin) moving at speed 4. But I haven't actually looked at FH so I'm not really sure.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

I've said this a couple of times in other threads, but it seems appropriate to throw it out again here. The characters that you see in the new books seem to be built with two different standards for DEX and SPD. Some see to hover around 20 DEX, 5 SPD, while others meet the DEX 23, SPD 5 model.

 

I still wonder if there is a philosophical disagreement between the writers and editors at DOJ.

 

Look at some of the high powewred NPC supers in CU2:NOTW. There are some powerhouses with DEX scores around 20. Dr. Vox is a great exaple of someone with powers who is physically normal. A 500+ point energy projector with a DEX 17 and SPD 5. Now, I personally think that is the right way to go for her concept, but I look a other characters who have 23 DEX for no reason and wonder if there is a disconnect. Can all these people operate in the same universe with an acceptable level of consitency.

[JmOz]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

The balloon was flat before the first inflated characters were made.

 

 

 

I don't hold the players of a game accountable for the actions of the game's creators and custodians.

 

Had the game's designers gone with non-inflated DEX/SPD scores from the game's inception, would you feel like you had to pump up the DEX/SPD scores in your game to adequately reflect the capabilities of homage builds?

 

Yes I would

 

Edit: To expand on what I said, yes I would if I was aiming for a 4-color style game, ala Avengers, Teen Titans, JLA, etc, If I was aiming for a more gritty Miller style game like Batman Year 1, or some Daredevil or some captain America, then no I would not

 

The question is how much above the masses I want them

[Southern Cross]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

As do I,JmOz.I'm with Trebuchet-a superheroic martial artist should have superhuman combat ability,and the best way to represent that in the Hero System is superhuman DEX & SPD.

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Champions cop's have speed 2. I just checked. [snip] Normals are speed 2. "Trained" people are speed 3' date=' if they're lucky. Cops (imo) don't receive enough actual combat training, nor do they experience combat on a regular enough basis, to qualify for speed 3.[/quote']Cops and non-elite soldiers (amongst others) are trained to react quickly in a crisis situation. By definition that makes them quicker than Joe Lawyer or Bob Convenience Store Clerk. It's not just about combat training; it's knowing what to do in a critical situation. If an average person is SPD 2, then someone with ANY type of crisis training (soldiers, cops, paramedics, martial artists, etc.) is going to be SPD 3 or better.

[JmOz]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

just a wrinkle, but you know the first edition of UMA suggested selling back running when you increase speed (to keep you moving at normal human rates)

[Corven_Ren]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Think about someone like Cyclops. Outside of his eye-blasts' date=' he's just a well-trained normal. He doesn't have physical abilities that put him above, say, a special forces soldier. He's no stronger or faster, no better trained. He should fit under NCM for everything other than his eye-blasts. I don't think the comics have ever (with any consistency, anyway) depicted this otherwise.[/quote']

 

Actually according to his Wikipedia entry Cyclops holds black belts in both Akido and Judo and stated that he took out six men with his eyes close. I don't know about everyone else here but I would give him at least a five speed based on that alone.

[bwdemon]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Normal humans can't hold black belts in two martial arts? Judo is a derivative of Aikido, so mastery of Aikido includes mastery of Judo (unless you assume that it matters solely from a point-scoring perspective in tournament fighting). Taking out six combatants with your eyes closed is a bit off, but I'm talking about the standard for the character, not the outlying events made by some fanboy writer (let alone what fanboy made the Wikipedia entry...). No reference in the Wiki for that "six normal men while blindfolded" bit, either...

 

Regardless, put a few levels in HTH Combat, shift them to DCV, stick with defensive maneuvers, throw opponents into each other, and you'll have a victory in no time. Nothing there requires superhuman DEX or SPD...

[Bloodstone]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Judo is NOT a derivative of Aikido...

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Normal humans can't hold black belts in two martial arts? Judo is a derivative of Aikido, so mastery of Aikido includes mastery of Judo (unless you assume that it matters solely from a point-scoring perspective in tournament fighting). Taking out six combatants with your eyes closed is a bit off, but I'm talking about the standard for the character, not the outlying events made by some fanboy writer (let alone what fanboy made the Wikipedia entry...). No reference in the Wiki for that "six normal men while blindfolded" bit, either...

 

Regardless, put a few levels in HTH Combat, shift them to DCV, stick with defensive maneuvers, throw opponents into each other, and you'll have a victory in no time. Nothing there requires superhuman DEX or SPD...

I agree. Even if Cyclops took out "six normal men while blindfolded" that's nothing greater than scores of real top-notch black belts can do. I think that would require nothing more than a SPD 4 and a few combat levels.

 

I'll go so far as to say Scott Summers is a remarkable athlete, so I'd give him a SPD 4 and an 18 - 20 DEX and several combat levels. He doesn't need more than that.

[bwdemon]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Judo is NOT a derivative of Aikido...

 

Ach... Sorry about that. Both do share significant thematic elements (block-placement-maneuver). I always thought that Aikido developed from Kenjutsu, but now it appears it might have been a derivative of Jiu-Jutsu (perhaps with circular motions borrowed from Kenjutsu) and, by extension, a sibling or cousin of Judo?

 

The relationship of art to art looks more like a plate of spaghetti each day...

[Bloodstone]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

They do share a common parent art (specifically Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu) and were developed around the same time. But overall they are quit dissimilar in curriculum, philosophy and technique. Many people have since blended the two arts together with varying degrees of success though.

 

I could probably go into a lengthy discussion about this, but it's all out there on the web (to one degree or another...) and really has nothing to do with the topic at hand... so I'll shut up and spare the forum

[gojira]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

... Taking out six combatants with your eyes closed is a bit off' date=' but I'm talking about the standard for the character, not the outlying events made by some fanboy writer (let alone what fanboy made the Wikipedia entry...). ...[/quote']

 

To me it feels a bit more like a beleaguered writer trying to explain how Scott keeps up with a guy who can turn his body into metal, another guy with bones made of metal and a super-human reflexes and regeneration, and a chick who can lift tonnes with her mind.

 

Basically, this is handi-wavium by the writer. "Uh, yeah, he's got two black belts... that's why Magneto's attack didn't totally paste him all over the country side like you'd expect a normal human to be..."

[Squall]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Scott's been described as "a Judo expert" since at least the Uncanny 150's or so, and he was the guy that gave the other X-Men hand to hand lessons (before Wolverine took over the role). The "six guys with his eyes closed" is in reference to an Ultimate X-Men story (don't know the issue off the top of my head), a solo story they did were he was accosted by a street gang, and didn't want to murder them all with crimson eyebeams despite one shoving him so his glasses fell off; he clamped his eyes shut, remembered where they'd been standing, listened for their footsteps, yadda yadda, and whooped up on 'em. Partially with bare hands, partially with his I'm-a-blind-kid cane.

 

His martial arts abilities don't come up very often, because, well, eye blasts kind of trump them for most superfights. But they're there, and they've been there for a long time. You can still call them "hand wavium" or something scribbled out by a fanboy writer if you want to, but even if so they're excuses and fan-fiction that's a good 30 years old.

 

Also keep in mind -- it's been established as canon in more recent years that mutants/metahumans are just innately better than human, in terms of physical ability, healing time, etc.

 

Not everyone in tights and a mask is Wolverine or The Flash, but in both major comics universes, they've been going on for the last several years, at least, about the innate resiliency of metahumans, the incredible stamina most mutants have, yadda yadda yadda. I think they did so partially to excuse themselves for 50+ years of people surviving all sorts of otherwise fatal attacks, but it IS still "canon" precedent for this sort of thing. Meta = Better (Batman notwithstanding), at least where raw physical abilities are concerned in the two big comic u's.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

His martial arts abilities don't come up very often' date=' because, well, [i']eye blasts[/i] kind of trump them for most superfights. But they're there, and they've been there for a long time. You can still call them "hand wavium" or something scribbled out by a fanboy writer if you want to, but even if so they're excuses and fan-fiction that's a good 30 years old.

 

Also keep in mind -- it's been established as canon in more recent years that mutants/metahumans are just innately better than human, in terms of physical ability, healing time, etc.

 

Xavier's is also a school for supers - a training ground - and Scott's been there longer than any other X-Man. From Day 1, the Danger Room was established as a plac where their abilities were tested to their limits and they were trained not to rely solely on their powers. It stands to reason that the X-Men train in areas that would be ancillary to their mutant powers, including HTH combat (Scott) acrobatics (as seen in the Proteus arc, even Colossus has some skill/training in this area), defending oneself from mental powers, etc.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Hmm, the Topic That Lived.

 

I'm pretty sure I said this before. If not in this iteration of the board, then one of the prior ones. Here's how I see it:

 

Heroes are defined by how far they are from the norm in comics, largely. You can go from godling level to gritty pulp hero level and still be loosely in the superheroic genre. Of course, publishers love to mix and match the two, so that doesn't help us draw a baseline. Heck, the publishers do all kinds of crazy stuff, like have a guy with a medium acrobat's build flip a limo over. (A panel from Daredevil, don't know who was sleeping at the wheel on that one, so to speak.)

 

You can look in the comics and pick a lot of things to use as a baseline to model your stats. When it comes to fighting ability, I like to look at relative performance. To me, the raw numbers don't mean as much as the spread of numbers you have to work with. Whether you aim for close to humanity, or a more lofty power level, SPD generally ends up in a narrow range anyway. It's CV that needs to be monitored more closely. DEX isn't relevant, other than using it as a baseline for CV. If you want to go first, you can buy limited DEX with Lightning Reflexes anyway, and going first doesn't help much if the other guy has obscene CV.

 

Since most superheroic RPGs focus on the middle of the road power level hero, with an eye on the lower end of middle for starting characters, that's where I'd go baseline. For SPD, I'd say that this spread hits that ballpark:

 

2: Joe Blow. You can achieve the illustrious speed of 2 simply by walking around.

 

3: Jocks, Soldiers, Generic Agents, leet FPS players (but only in game). You get a 3 SPD through not only good coordination, and being in good shape, but also through maintaining a high level of alertness. This represents the ability to quickly size up a situation and act decisively, two things most people can't do.

 

4: Elite Athletes and Military. Take great reflexes, extreme alertness and then add on a huge heap of experience under fire. You won't find any non-combatants here, though you may see someone like a jockey or Indie car driver at 3 SPD. You don't train for 4 SPD, you earn it.

 

5: Veteran combatants, superhuman physiques/reactions. Robin Hood or a cinematic martial artist would probably fall here. So would super humans who have slightly boosted physical or mental capabilities.

 

6: Veteran combatants with extensive training, or superhuman with a heightened reflexes shtick. Basically, the majority of comic book martial artists fall in here. Cap, Bats, Iron Fist, you name it. You also get combat experienced and/or trained supers with physical enhancements, like Beast, Nightcrawler, and probably Spider-Man.

 

7+: Your SPD is a defining aspect of your character. In most games, this would be reserved for speedster types or major villains.

 

So, most PCs are going to be 4-6 SPD. Slide the scale down to 3-5, and they are more vulnerable to mass agent attacks.

 

As far as CV.... well, I've been up all night so I don't have the math handy. But a wide CV spread will do more damage to a game than a wide DEX spread. When I have a problem with an official write up, it's usually the obscene number of CSLs on the character sheet that bugs me rather than the DEX.

 

What if you set out some benchmarks and someone makes a character to concept? Let's say I make The Marvelous Mop, Janitor by Day, Crime Fighter by Night. A strange accident involving cleaning fluids and a green monkey gave the Mop the power to absorb water and launch sudsy attacks at his enemies. As a Janitor, he's had no special physcial training. He's never taken an interest in sports. He's been a hero for a while, though, so has some combat experience under his belt. So, I give him SPD 2 and DEX 15, with two levels in his suds MP. So, CV 7 (depending on how he splits the levels) and SPD 2.

 

Well....

 

You'll find that most comic book janitors turned crime fighters don't suck quite that bad. The character is seriously out of line with what the publishers have shown us to be the capabilities of a mid-list hero. Even with a SPD 3, he'd only qualify as an agency thug. Most superheroes either have innate abilities that overcompensate for their lack of training and experience (Spider-Man, for example), or have decent training, whether formal or learned on the job. PC heroes are assumed to be somewhat seasoned at the default point level, I think.

 

There's nothing wrong with modeling an even lower CV and SPD range, but it's not that mid-list standard Champions has had all these years. The more you close the gap between the heroes and the SPD 2 / DEX 10 couch potatoes, the further you move away from the mainstream four color genre. I think at the de facto default levels, masses of agent level characters can't simply be shrugged off by most characters, especially if the agents have halfway decent gear and a sense of tactics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Since most superheroic RPGs focus on the middle of the road power level hero, with an eye on the lower end of middle for starting characters, that's where I'd go baseline. For SPD, I'd say that this spread hits that ballpark:

 

2: Joe Blow. You can achieve the illustrious speed of 2 simply by walking around.

 

3: Jocks, Soldiers, Generic Agents, leet FPS players (but only in game). You get a 3 SPD through not only good coordination, and being in good shape, but also through maintaining a high level of alertness. This represents the ability to quickly size up a situation and act decisively, two things most people can't do.

 

4: Elite Athletes and Military. Take great reflexes, extreme alertness and then add on a huge heap of experience under fire. You won't find any non-combatants here, though you may see someone like a jockey or Indie car driver at 3 SPD. You don't train for 4 SPD, you earn it.

 

5: Veteran combatants, superhuman physiques/reactions. Robin Hood or a cinematic martial artist would probably fall here. So would super humans who have slightly boosted physical or mental capabilities.

 

See, this is where it goes off the rails for many people. "Bob the underachiever couch potato is exposed to cosmic rays gains power over heat and fire. He adopts the identity of The Flaming Idiot." Bob immediately jumps from DEX 8, SPD 2 to reaction times comparable to Robin Hood or Bruce Lee. His powers did not, in any way, make him faster than a normal human. Now, presumably, Bob will do some trainng now that he's a superhero, and even being in combat will help him hone his skills through practice. But, based on your chart above, the best he should achieve in a short to medium period of time is a SPD of 3.

 

In order to bring his normal human reflexes up to a SPD of 4, you indicate he needs "great reflexes, extreme alertness" (neither of which he possesses) "and then add on a huge heap of experience under fire", which he will only get through a huge heap of superheroic experience.

 

Yet, to be competetive, the player and the GM will bump Bob from normal speed, past all those well-trained agents, above those individuals who combine "great reflexes, extreme alertness and then add on a huge heap of experience under fire", and put him up to a speed of 5, so Bob went from couch potato to Bruce Lee, despite the fact his superpowers have nothing whatsoever to do with his reflexes.

 

Really, Bob's not all that different from Johnny Storm. Johnny demonstrates no unusual speed or dexterity. Over time, he's gained experience under fire and likely gained some speed and accuracy through many years of practice (both in training and in the field). But, by your outline above, there is no way he should ever exceed a SPD 4, and may not even qualify for that. Other than some bizarre link between wearing your underwear on the outside and improved reaction times.

 

6: Veteran combatants with extensive training, or superhuman with a heightened reflexes shtick. Basically, the majority of comic book martial artists fall in here. Cap, Bats, Iron Fist, you name it. You also get combat experienced and/or trained supers with physical enhancements, like Beast, Nightcrawler, and probably Spider-Man.

 

7+: Your SPD is a defining aspect of your character. In most games, this would be reserved for speedster types or major villains.

 

So, basically, the game should have one SPD for everyone from Flaming Idiot to just below the Cap/Spidey level, then lump everyone from Batman/Cap to Spidey/Beast/Nightcrawler (with a very few exceptions) into a second. The rare speedster can fall into a third category.

 

Oh, but the speedster shares this exceptional ability with everyone from Flaming Idiot (if Flamy gets an attitude adjustment and enough xp to become a "major villain") on up, provided they're "major villains" - apparently, SPD is also enhanced if you're a bad guy, since only major VILLAINS get this special treatment.

 

What if the major villain is also a speedster?

 

Is Darkseid as fast as the Flash?

 

There's nothing wrong with modeling an even lower CV and SPD range' date=' but it's not that mid-list standard Champions has had all these years. The more you close the gap between the heroes and the SPD 2 / DEX 10 couch potatoes, the further you move away from the mainstream four color genre. I think at the de facto default levels, masses of agent level characters can't simply be shrugged off by most characters, especially if the agents have halfway decent gear and a sense of tactics.[/quote']

 

ummm...in the four colour genre, thugs and agents are generally able to shoot the heros whose schtick is not speed and agility on a pretty regular basis. Sure, they don't hit Bats or Cap or Hawkeye very often, but Iron Man, the Thing and Mr. Fantastic? No problem. Certainly not the roughly 1 in 4 chance that a 5 OCV gunman has of connecting with the base 8 DCV provided by a 23 DEX. And that 5 OCV is already pushing into "agent" territory.

[Bloodstone]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Really, Bob's not all that different from Johnny Storm. Johnny demonstrates no unusual speed or dexterity. Over time, he's gained experience under fire and likely gained some speed and accuracy through many years of practice (both in training and in the field). But, by your outline above, there is no way he should ever exceed a SPD 4, and may not even qualify for that. Other than some bizarre link between wearing your underwear on the outside and improved reaction times.

 

Of course, the counter argument is that you will see a lot more players writing backgrounds to justify what they perceive they "need".

 

You will see more "elite athlete", "ex-Force Recon Marine" and "trained in martial arts his whole life" type characters rather than "mechanic", "reporter" or "fashion model".

 

If you want to avoid that, you need to make sure the perception of things matches up with the in game experience. This, I think, is where things fall apart most often...

[MitchellS]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

This argument was old even before the original Dark Champions was released. I don't miss it playing M&M.

 

In a point-based game system point efficiency is king. The simple fact is it's more efficient to by dex then it is to buy lightning reflexes, combat levels, and bonuses to dex-based skills. Number crunching means exactly what it sounds like it means.

 

Why buy +10 lightning reflexes for 15 points, +1 speed for 10 points, +3 combat (offensive only: -1) for 12 points, +3 dcv for 15 points, and +2 all dex skills for 10 points when you can buy +10 dex for 32 points cheaper [that's half price!]? It's like buying a 13 strength because you know spending those 3 points will get you +2 stun, +1 recover, and +1 pd: why not spend 3 to get the benefit of 5?

 

If the components were the sum of all the parts stat inflation wouldn't even be an issue [maybe that can be fixed in 6e] but as it is right now most people don't see a logical reason to pay over twice as much to get the same benefit.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

This argument was old even before the original Dark Champions was released. I don't miss it playing M&M.

 

In a point-based game system point efficiency is king. The simple fact is it's more efficient to by dex then it is to buy lightning reflexes, combat levels, and bonuses to dex-based skills. Number crunching means exactly what it sounds like it means.

 

Why buy +10 lightning reflexes for 15 points, +1 speed for 10 points, +3 combat (offensive only: -1) for 12 points, +3 dcv for 15 points, and +2 all dex skills for 10 points when you can buy +10 dex for 32 points cheaper [that's half price!]? It's like buying a 13 strength because you know spending those 3 points will get you +2 stun, +1 recover, and +1 pd: why not spend 3 to get the benefit of 5?

 

If the components were the sum of all the parts stat inflation wouldn't even be an issue [maybe that can be fixed in 6e] but as it is right now most people don't see a logical reason to pay over twice as much to get the same benefit.

 

 

I always maintain that the character's concept should overrule the numbers or point efficiency. When I write a character that's what I do. If I were to GM ever again, I would enforce that. I would be more likely to ignore starting base cost to give a character the right feel than to abide min maxing.

 

I've never seen M and M. How does the system differ on thsi point?

[Victim]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

I always maintain that the character's concept should overrule the numbers or point efficiency. When I write a character that's what I do. If I were to GM ever again, I would enforce that. I would be more likely to ignore starting base cost to give a character the right feel than to abide min maxing.

 

I've never seen M and M. How does the system differ on thsi point?

 

It's easy enough to alter many concepts to allow for more efficient builds though.

 

In M&M, stats don't affect the CV equivalents - there are far less derived effects in general, really. That being said, there still issues with some things being more efficient than others, which is always a problem in a points based game.

[MitchellS]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

I always maintain that the character's concept should overrule the numbers or point efficiency. When I write a character that's what I do. If I were to GM ever again' date=' I would enforce that. I would be more likely to ignore starting base cost to give a character the right feel than to abide min maxing.[/quote']

There's nothing wrong with building to character concept. I stress it all the time. But when it costs over twice as much to build the same thing you have to ask yourself how important is it that your superhero function as normal when you want him to function as superhuman.

 

In the grand scheme of things who cares if a Viper agent has a 15 dex and you have a 26? You're the superhero and he's the dork that gets ko'd with 10 other dorks on page 15 panel 3. You're not supposed to be normal. You're the Batman who walks through scores of Ra's al Ghul's handpicked assassins. You're Captain American who jumps down into a room full of Hydra agents and pummels your way out in 2 pages. You're the Hulk whom no one believes can react so quickly for something of it's size. You're... you get the idea.

 

In a game like the Heroes tv show stat deflation makes sense. In most comic book settings even a dorky hero like Mr. Fantastic is clearly better then a common Hydra agent. Let's see a Hydra agent manipulate his hands 100 feet from his body to pummel Baron Strucker while simultaneously dodging lazer fire from near and far agents while all the time doing calculations to stop the Dooms Day Device #114.

 

I've never seen M and M. How does the system differ on thsi point?

M&M separates OCV and DCV into their own abilities called Attack and Defense. In M&M dex only relates to initiative, dex rolls, and skill bonuses. That makes it quite simple to have characters within the human norm who are good fighters but don't need above Olympic level characteristics to cost effectively get OCV and DCV.