How powerful are the heroes of your world?

[JmOz]

Just curious, how powerful are the heroes in your world, and roughly how many are there?

[Arthur]

Well, I'm not running a game now (no time to spare), but the next one I PLAN to run is going to have the PCs (not necessarily "heroes", but superhuman paranormals) built on 75+75. Also, it is a hybrid Heroic/Superheroic setting where you can both buy Powers AND things like Weapon Familiarity (and mundane real-world weapons without spending points on the weapons themselves).

 

This is probably as low as you're going to ever see. For more details on this game type, see Digital Hero #11: Realistic Supers.

[OddHat]

I use a semi-Wild Cards modified setting. About one person in 10,000 has some kind of minor meta-human power or disadvantage (often an obvious physical deformity, such as a cat's head and night vision, 50 point characters), about 1 in 100,000 has powers significant enough to make their living from them in one way or another (150 point characters, minor criminals with one or two significant powers, magicians, psychics, government or corporate telepaths, etc.) , and about 1 in 1,000,000 is in the big leagues (250-350 point characters with standard champions levels of power). There might be a dozen beings on earth with "cosmic" levels of power (1000+ points). They're rarely involved directly in games. China and most of SE Asia are broken up into a dozen waring kingdoms ruled by Metahumans and plagued by Metahuman bandits, most crime families have baseline human mooks at the bottom and Metahumans at the top, all the best positions in police and security agencies worldwide go to Metahumans and the baselines don't like it, etc. The Middle East and much of South and Central America are ruled by Metahuman thugs as well. The largest Metahuman divisions in the world are controlled by China, America, Egypt, England, Germany, India, Russia, and the Catholic Church.

 

So, fairly powerful.

[Nightfly]

Low Balling

 

Yeah, speaking of "Cosmic"....

 

I made up a R2-D2 conversion and I guess one would call him "Half-Cosmic" cuz just to build him as seen in the movies, he's over 500pts.

 

I've seen X-Men conversions at the Wild-Hunt that put heroes like Wolverine, Cyclops & Storm all in the 470-650 range.

 

I've so far mostly built martial artists, and at 350pts there's not a lot of room for much more Powers.

 

Maybe at roughly 150 spent on attributes, I'm being too greedy.

 

Surbrook (who authored Ninja Hero) puts most movie martial artists (Jackie Chan, Steven Seagal, Jet Li, etc) at near "Cosmic" (1000pts) levels also

[Kristopher]

1000 pts? That's nuts.

 

OTOH, Bruce Lee would appear to have a 12 SPD in his movies. (Remember that each segment is one second, and watch how often he takes an action at least every second for up to a 15 or 20 seconds at a time.)

[OddHat]

A lot of it comes down to what you charge points for and special effects. If a Jackie Chan character has to pay separately for each and every variation on a strike or weapon, is given damage in the 12DC range, and has to pay for all the weapons and perks he uses in the films, then it could easily be up close to 1000 points. OTOH, give him a DEX of 18-20, some overall levels, and interpret the character differently then he might come in for 250 or so points. It's a limitation of any point-based system.

 

As to the X-Men and other well established heroes, you have to ask yourself how many heroes that powerful and experienced you want running around in your game world. You're the GM; it's your call.

 

In my setting in the USA you end up with around 281 chacters as powerful as most heroes were when just starting out, around 28 at full "Four Color" levels, and maybe 2 or 3 world shakers. You also have plenty of interesting low level supers around for crazed cultist / mysterious mage / government telepath / super thug of the week duties. World wide you have more than enough supers to keep things interesting.

 

If you want more and tougher, feel free. ;-)

[OddHat]

Originally posted by Kristopher

1000 pts? That's nuts.

 

OTOH, Bruce Lee would appear to have a 12 SPD in his movies. (Remember that each segment is one second, and watch how often he takes an action at least every second for up to a 15 or 20 seconds at a time.)

 

Special effects. Buy your Champions Martial Artist with a FF to simulate blocks and a Damage Shield Hand Attack with double knockback for counterstrikes, maybe add in an AOE HA with selective effect for punching out groups of thugs, and he too can be Bruce. Heck, depending on the campaign he could do it with a speed of 3.

[Lord Liaden]

My super demographics are pretty close to the default in Champions Universe: several thousand people with superhuman abilities worldwide, but only a fraction of those with the power to be classed as true superbeings. As for power level, the majority fall within the Low-Powered to Standard Superhero range, along with my PCs (so far). There are a few NPC heroes around who rival some of the mightiest published Champions villains. For example, Earth's Archmage, Vincent Dimitrios (adapted from Mystic Masters) runs about 1,000 pts. and would be a close match for Takofanes one-on-one.

[Nightfly]

Spider-Man

 

So, just to keep it simple... how much do you think Spider-Man should cost? 350? 250?

Lord Liaden, you hooked me up to the Surbrook site(s), where even an under-developed (4th Season) Buffy The Vampire Slayer costed 317pts (and she never got all that powerful, even in Season 7 - at least as compared to Spidey) and James Bond has a total [surbrook] character cost of 446pts

[OddHat]

Re: Spider-Man

 

Originally posted by Nightfly

So, just to keep it simple... how much do you think Spider-Man should cost? 350? 250?

Lord Liaden, you hooked me up to the Surbrook site(s), where even an under-developed (4th Season) Buffy The Vampire Slayer costed 317pts (and she never got all that powerful, even in Season 7 - at least as compared to Spidey) and James Bond has a total [surbrook] character cost of 446pts

 

How do you want to write him up? What stage of his career? What are you going to make him pay for and what does he get by GM fiat?

 

The Spidey just out of high-school with low-level Super-Characteristics or the movie Spidey could be done on 350 points or less, so long as you set everyone's Dex and Speed low enough to leave Spidey near the top end. Try to give him every skill and power he's displayed over the 40+ years since the character first appeared and you'll probably need to spend over 500 points.

[Nightfly]

Exactly

 

That's pretty much my point....

 

To create a reasonably "mature" (experienced) Hero usually will cost around 500pts. I know R2-D2 did.

 

My GM makes me pay for absolutely everything. Not much is assumed, or given.

[Nightfly]

Then...

 

then try building a base, vehicle, or robot 'n see where your Total Character Cost winds up.

[OddHat]

Re: Exactly

 

Originally posted by Nightfly

That's pretty much my point....

 

To create a reasonably "mature" (experienced) Hero usually will cost around 500pts. I know R2-D2 did.

 

My GM makes me pay for absolutely everything. Not much is assumed, or given.

 

If you don't like his rules, you can always GM your own campaign. ;-)

 

That said, when building a campaign world you should ask yourself how powerful the characters are and how many characters that powerful there are in the setting. In four color worlds that's less important; every frickin' hero in the world can live in the same city. In a more "realistic" game you have to ask how many Avengers level characters you want wandering around. The 1 in a million rule leaves you with 6000 "supers" in the world; yet in most comic book worlds supers are constantly running into eachother in the supermarket. The demographics are screwy. That's why I like the 1 in 10,000 rule and plenty of very low-end supers. It creates the potential for comic-book conventions like super powered street gangs without having to worry about why the heck they're earning a few thousand a month through petty theft when their powers could be making them filthy rich legitimately.

 

Personally I don't charge points for real-tech beyond the wealth needed to buy it and perks points, but that's the GMs call. Want a cool mansion? Buy enough wealth to pay for it. Same with your car or your (realistic) gun collection. House rules.

 

R2D2 is tougher; how much of a robot or android is a 0 point trait and how much needs to be paid for will vary by campaign.

[Fireg0lem]

I'm running a low-powered super game with 100+50 characters as the PCs. There's a fair number of supers on less points running around. There's 1 (and by definition only 1) Uber-villain, and about a dozen worldwide master villains (around 600-700 points). There's a few hundred individuals worldwide in the mid range, and an unknown number of "regular" supers.

For example, Team Fuzion, a villain group that my PCs are about to fight consists of

Dr Atom, a master villain, 600 or so points, his powers are control of the basic forces (strong force, electroweak force, gravitic force, etc), and he uses this to create cold-fusion powered technology. He's intended to be the "master villain" aka "Curses, you've foiled my plot," and he's got variation over raw power.

Mongoose, a streetfighter with teleportation, a fusion-powered raygun from Atom, powered armor from Atom, and nothing else, built on 123 points.

Howitzer, one power: a huge energy blast with Extra Time and Beam. He wears a powered armor suit that gives him a massive Con infusion, without it he can only fire once without resting. Built on 110 points

Palisade: High defenses on every level (including mental and power), ray gun, and nothing else. Built on 133 points.

 

My advice to Arthur for his game: Enforce specialization, try to get people to have one really cool power rather than a really broad, vaguely defined concept, and be really sure to do this for NPCs. Keep normals as low as humanly possible (my toughened thugs, for example, are 0+33) unless you want a specific tough individual.

[Guest Keneton]

My super hero PC's must be under 100 ER (see effectiveness rating DH#3 and the Free stuff section). The points are irrelevent. Villans are as tuff as they need to be to tell the story.

 

We are starting a Fantasy and Star Hero Campign. We are not using the ER there but can if need be. My house rules for powers have been posted prior.

 

I have recieved and reviewd many characters from friends on the boards and have yet to see one that would not be legal in my campiagn except for a water character whose name I cant recall presently.

 

 

 

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Originally posted by Keneton

I have recieved and reviewd many characters from friends on the boards and have yet to see one that would not be legal in my campiagn except for a water character whose name I cant recall presently.

 

That would probably be mine -- the one with virtually everything in an EC, combined with another EC with eight 'Enhance all Water Powers' AIDs. :> Granted, I recommended that for someone else, but I'm going to wind up using it myself...

 

I didn't really give her a name, just used the traditional 'Fathom'.

[TheEmerged]

The sound bite version is that my PC's (in a villain campaign) are slightly mature Class 2 novas. Of course, that means absolutely nothing to the rest of you

 

• Noteworthy terminology
  
• Nova (from Aberrant) -- individual that does not have Normal Characteristic Maxima by default, and can purchase super powers and/or "super tech" devices.
  
• Active Point Cap -- Think of it as a loose AP maximum. Individual powers can exceed this where I (the GM) judge it appropriate, but no framework size can be purchased over this.
  
• Baseline (from Aberrant) -- individual that has Normal Characteristic Maxima be default. Basically, everyone that isn't a nova or "alien".
  
• "Alien" -- anything sentient that doesn't fit the nova/baseline definition. Includes AI's, robots, and such.
  

 

I developed a mechanic that began with the assumption that, as a global average, 1 in 1,000,000 people are novas (see above). 6 in 7 novas (again, as a global average) are what I term "Class 1" novas -- 150 pts plus 100 pts in disadvantages. They have an active point cap (see above). Most of the remainder are "Class 2" novas, with 200/150 points and an active cap of 75. However, 1 in 7 of those are actually Class 3 novas (<1000 pts, active cap 90), 1 in 7 of those (20 alive in the campaign world) are actually Class 4 (<2000) -- and then you have the 3 "Cosmic" characters at Class 5 (this includes my Doctor Destroyer rewrite).

 

So how powerful are the PC's relative to the world? Basically they're in that group of Class 2 novas, except I allowed them to start with 50 additional points -- with the understanding that I'm a pain about perks & such. The extra points are intended to reflect the fact that they've all had solo careers before teaming up (AKA "slightly mature").

 

This means they have quite a lot of power to throw around. In our last session they took on dozens (43 to be exact) of 75+75 cops -- that didn't have to pay for their equipment -- and thrashed them. But they nearly got taken out by a single (albeit higher-end, around 750 pts) Class 3 later in the same session.

 

I like for the PC's to know they have to power to change the world -- and to realize there are NPC's out there that can squash them like bugs if they're stupid. I find without the "sword of Damocles" so to speak the players get out of hand. However, I don't like true Duex Ex -- I want the players to know they have a chance if they play it smart.

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by Wyrm Ouroboros

That would probably be mine -- the one with virtually everything in an EC, combined with another EC with eight 'Enhance all Water Powers' AIDs. :> Granted, I recommended that for someone else, but I'm going to wind up using it myself...

 

I didn't really give her a name, just used the traditional 'Fathom'.

 

I still remeber that the chracter was very cool, just not legal for my present campaign. I would welcome a quality character concept like that any day.

[Tech]

I'd say the campaign I'm in comes in around 200+150, although it's actually variable depending on the hero built. We have some heroes built on 100+125. Why the variable? Some players don't want to start with a lotta points. It's kinda crazy but hey, it works.

[Storn]

I'm a player, not THE GM... but the PCs? Powerful enough to change the world. Several times. For good and ill. Mostly good though.

 

As Co-GM, the PCs currently in my mini-game are ranging from 300 pts to 350. Some have experience, some are brand new PCs to the game. But their impact is not all that powerful... it is not that kinda game, it is a spy/mercenary setting with paranormals... who can be lethal as all get out... but a regular superteam with flying, mind control etc would take them out pretty easily for 50 less points.

[Marchwarden]

Never as powerful as the villains, sadly...

[Agent X]

Golden Age Game: 350 point base av. of about 3.5 xp per session (they are good role-players and I throw some hard stuff at them - and they don't spend all (or most) of it on more damage classes and combat skill levels)

 

Games I'm Playing in:

 

"Miami Stray Cats" Game - 350 base, total of 41 xp so far after quite a bit of gaming - was playing a density/desolid shapeshifter guy with a personality mixed between Mr. Fantastic and the Elongated Man, switching to a brick (the more intelligent brother of Ogre who has a chip on his shoulder and is viewed with suspicion

 

"Tri-City" Game - about the same, switching again (wierd because I don't really do that too often) to my first feral superhero borrowing from Logan, Timberwolf, and the Beast in various capacities

 

Freedom City Game we'll eventually play - 450 starting out, playing a character inspired by The Phantom, The Scarecrow (of Disney fame fighting the British), The Shadow, etc. with a Pirate Motif

 

So we favor standard superhero and powerful superhero type points and try to build our characters roughly with the same burden of background points as published characters. Never worried about super demographics - just run it like the comics and hope it "feels" believable enough.

 

As for "Cosmic" - I think the combat values, active points, and damage classes are more indicative of whether a character is cosmic or not. I do think that, if you demand a character pay for every little thing, the character will soon be a mass of familiarities and knowledge skills. (I believe many of us would be shocked to discover how many points we would cost to build under such a detail conscious approach.)There has to be some common sense in the game. Some things are handled awkwardly by the game's skills system and the background of the character should be looked at occasionally to determine the suitability of what the character can do or can't do.

[Nightfly]

250+100

 

The 350 standard feels right to me.

 

On the various FREd webring sites, usually every known Comic Hero is over 400 (even wringing every little bit out of multi-powers possible).

I believe FREd is best for experienced players who've already done the Level 1 thing (one sys or another). Frankly playing normals are my idea of an occasional novelty game, otherwise I need some powers to exploit.

 

Examples:

Human Torch = 787 http://geocities.com/george_ruban/CombatApplet.html

 

Dazzler = 628 Wild-Hunt

 

Chow Yun-Fat (C.Normal) Surbrook

[Cyragnome]

We've pretty much settled on a 250 Base with 100+ or so in Disads as well. Seems to work pretty well.

 

As for the Campaigns and where the heroes fit in we've got...

 

...a semi-horrorish campaign (built on 150/100) sort of Hellboy meets Buffy meets Call of Cthulu...they're set in a regular Superhero world (my only mistake in the game, I think it would have worked better in a non-super world) so they're pretty low-powered compared to the rest of the world

 

...a stardard straight up supers style set in the CU. 250/100+ and the heroes sit somewhere smack in the middle, I'd say. Obviously there are "cosmic" powers far beyond the characters, but all-in-all they're pretty middle of the road.

 

...a Freedom City campaign. Again 250/100+ and the heroes are going to be, in the very near term "The Big Dogs on the Block." Right now they're kinda outstripped by the Freedom League, but I've been tweaking the FL down a bit to make them a bit more reasonable for my style.

[Emerald Mask]

In my curent camoaign world there are about 30 heroes and 300 villians active.I have had campaign worlds with 28 different players running a multiple heroes and 4 teams of supers. Points active in attack currently 10-12 d6 with defenses capped at 30 . I have run 20 d6 damage games but do not find them viable in a long run. My games tend to lower dexes than some - presently 15 - 23. I have found dex wars among players to be problem , once it was so bad as a supposed normal had a 30 so the speedster said he wanted a 55. This would not be a terrible thing if the villians I made were not on reasonable to me scale. Most were clustered a 20 - 26 with my highest two at 33 and 39.