Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

[Kirby]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

2. Relative to the "changing my powers to meet each brick" the character is part martial artist' date=' part tinker with a decent sized gadget pool. Come to think of it, that's probably the root of at least some of the problem. I originally envisionaged using it for thinks like night vision goggles, transdimensional teleporters etc...[/quote']This sounds like a nice character concept; however, a drawback of having a multi-talented character is that your effectiveness in a single area is initially weaker. (A karate champ politician whose super lifestyle consists of being a gadget-tinkering detective delving into occult activities isn't going to be as effective as a martial artist, gadgeteer, or mystic will be. :shrug: It stinks sometimes.)

 

...but the group seemed to be coming up against bricks all the frickin' time' date=' we don't have one, and my character has "issues" so I became the anti-brick.[/quote']The character has issues or the player? Seriously, though, this sounds like a GM issue. More on this later.

 

3. 1 day on the PD drain' date=' is a "realism" thing. I figure that acid so caustic that it literally strips away the opponents metal/rock/chitin exo-skeleton etc. would hurt enough that it would be similar to taking Body damage.[/quote']OK, I see. My reference into the Drain wasn't for a specific SFX. If you're doing Acid, you might consider Penetrating as well then, for that SFX.

 

4. Buying more defense... a concept thing. I know a self limitation' date=' but there you have it. And, more directly, defense wouldn't address my "problem." I'm content with being squishy, it's part of the concept; what I dislike is having to arrange an air strike, inter stellar war, or convenient vat of molten [unobtainable indestructible metal'] in which to martially throw, TK, etc. some brick that's based on the same point structure.

I'm going to guess the air strike and interstellar war are exaggerations there but nothing "exceptional" should be required to throw or TK your standard brick. A 15 STR character or TK can throw a 300 lb Brick regardless if that Brick has a 40 STR or a 60 STR.

 

6. Relative to grab... the point I was trying to make is that 60 str brick that grabs' date=' both reduces the targets DCV for a duration and does damage for 1 cost, in that particular case 6 end, assuming no endurance reduction/advantages etc. By contrast, an energy projector to accomplish the same effects has to use two powers as a multipower attack and pay 2 costs to do, most likely a 12d6 EB for 6 Endurance and a Drain Dex for another 6.[/quote']It's simply a balance issue. A Brick (well, any character, really) can grab and squeeze. A brick (generally) can't half-move and attack at range, which an EBer or Mentalist can. The brick would have to half-move to a throwable object and grab it, then on the Brick's next action, he'd be able to throw it.

 

7. Combat Sense.... 1) Hearing Flashes usually do not result in CV penalties for the brick' date=' because most are Sight based. 2) Yes you have to roll 11-, if flashed or in a darkness relative to the brick's normal targeting sense, but they'll pass it over 62% of the time, with +2, which costs 4 pts. that probability increases to just shy of 84%.[/quote']Yeah, the Flash sense is a in-game rule we use, but you *might* try to pass it by the GM. In my previous FtF group, we treated a Hearing Flash as a modifier because losing your equalibrium would affect balance. As for the Combat Sense, on an 11-, 62% will be about 3 out of 5 phases for a Brick, making him almost offensively useless for two phases, while 4 out of 5 phases for one with 13-, though that's still another 4 points no being spent on defenses.

 

8. Relative to the "100 free pts." I was talking about the increase in the standard points allowance from 250' date=' back in the day, to 350. As to what I did with my "100 free pts." lots of sciences, contacts, perqs, and some minor equipment of the interesting/useful variety IR cameras, electronic bugs, tracers, a tinkering lab..[/quote']That's a design issue then. If the GM has skill-less Bricks show up all the time, call him on it (in game or out). More on this later.

 

9. Relative to 6 cp's draining a full point of speed. I think you're wrong. I believe that adjustment powers only operate on full increments' date=' so 6 cp's of drain speed does nothing until it gets the other 4. But correct me if I'm wrong with a citation to the FRED.[/quote']You are correct. I was looking at it from the opposite approach (looking at Speed instead of Adjustment powers). However, if you have a 6-speed character with a Speed Drain, you could average 36 cps (or 30 if you count in one miss) with the 15 pt Power Defense you offered. Assuming you haven't been hit, you've lowered that brick from a 4 Speed to 1 or 5 Speed to 2.

 

My personal brick has 5 points of Power Defense. Hitting her with a 6d6 Drain will average 16 cps lost. If you hit her (SPD 5, DCV 7) four times in one turn, you'll have drained 64 cps of Speed, reducing her to 0 speed and requiring her to survive 3 TURNS before she's able to get to 1 Spd. Even if you hit her 3 times for 48 cps, you've reduced her to 1 Spd for a turn or two, which should be enough to put her out despite her defenses and Stun.

 

Whether Martial Artists should be able to take out bricks? Well' date=' to me Thor is a god, so that a mere mortal can't take out a god is okay. I also think that Thor is built well north of 500 pts. So I'm okay that my 350 martial artist can't beat up a god "twice his size." What I don't like, and the "trigger" for my hope for help, is the ability of bricks of similar power levels to choose to ignore several characters, and then proceed to beat up a whole team.[/quote']Well, this is obvious. Jackie Chan won't be able to take out Superman. However, Taipan could take out Ogre or Grond, I'm betting.

 

Practical Invulnerability or very near to it' date=' coupled with the ability to take out most everybody else in 1 or 2 shots.[/quote']Don't confuse "1 or 2 shots" with "1 or 2 attacks." Provided your GM's being fair (more on this later), that's the schitck of a Brick. He can take out most same-point characters in 2-3 hits (one hit seems a bit odd), but if he's fighting a team, tactics can easily alter this.

 

"More on this later"

Ok, if your GM is constantly throwing Bricks at your team, my suggestion is that you talk to him about this outside the game. If you don't feel comfortable doing that, or would prefer a different approach, talk to your fellow players. Have your PCs bring this up in game each time you face a Brick. "Let me guess, you're another super strong villain, right? What is it with [campaign city] that all the super criminals are super strong? Are you forming a fraternity? You might as well join up and call yourselves the 'Wrecking Crew.'" Or something such as "We can't turn a corner without a superstrong criminal showing up."

 

Good luck to you on this.

[Kirby]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Guess I should start my own campaign.

This is a good approach as well. Often, the best way to show an example is to lead by example. Show the "munchkin GM" that not every NPC villain has to be a brick.

 

And if you're ever wanting some "sweet revenge," have a Team of bricks hunt that GM's PC.

[incrdbil]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Had the same issue with mental powers, everything but everything seemed to require Ego +30.

 

Thats a classic GM mistake. Mental powers just freak some GM's out--but sometimes it comes from players demanding any mental effect at them should be at +30.

 

 

As far as bricks not being able to hit High DCV targets.. flyswatters, buses, aoes generally.

 

Range, mobility, dive for cover. The Brick runs out of cars eventually.

 

 

For a martial artist to have the same effective defense as a brick, i.e. the ability to soak or ignore virtually all attacks, the CV gap has to be -8, and still 1 time in 200 or thereabouts, they'll get plastered.

 

Bricks normally dont have the capability to ignore all atacks. They are very resistant, perhaps, but they should nto be bouncing all damage from an atatck at the standard campaign value.

 

So if the bricks are running around at 20 DEX, and 3 H+H CSLs (OCV 11), the martial artist has to be 30 DEX with +9 general combat levels to DCV (DCV 19).

 

If you think the only compareability for a MA comes from the brick having a 3 or less at best to hit..well, damn, you've been getting some unfair treatment.

 

Still look at it this way--it doesnt take that many levels at all to really, really frustrate a brick.

 

Brick with an 20 Dex, and +3 hand to hand levels.

 

Give the MA..well heck, just a 26 dex. He can buy 5 skill levels with Martial arts for the same price as the Bricks 3 levels in general HTH combat. Add in the defensive modifiers from MA attacks, and you've got a good DCV. A little Defense manuever, and your DCV bonus is persistant, and bricks with a 6 or less change only hit about 9% of the time--easily attainable if you consider even the lowly, humble martial strike gives a +2 DCV bonus.

 

 

Guess I should start my own campaign. There's just something that seems not right to me that your average hero has 10 rpd, so everyone is bullet proof except from the luckiest shots of the highest powered pistols, and darned good shots from most rifles?

 

Genre issue. A lot of teams feature bulletproof members--though that 10rPF sure doesnt make you stunproof.

 

And yes, I play with munchkins. Haven't met the brick yet that didn't have some form of "brick-fu" +5 OCV with grab was always quite popular.

 

Well, you definitely have a player problem. you could try to out munch them..but seems you are 'outgunned' as the GM is on their side, or at worst a bit of a munchkin as well. Really--whatever the other players do shouldnt be a concern--its not like you are fighting the other players. Is youa GM running a game, or trying to 'beat' the PC's?

 

The best fix here is to address them plainly about how unbalanced and unejoyable the game is for you and see if it can be fiixed, or find a new group.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

And yes' date=' I play with munchkins. Haven't met the brick yet that didn't have some form of "brick-fu" +5 OCV with grab was always quite popular. So against these, my hypothetical martial artist has to take +12 DCV levels (60 points!) and to make it persistent 10 pts. for defensive maneuver.[/quote']

 

How boring to have all the Bricks be the same. In any case, Mr. Gadgeteer, try a SlickSuit - +8 DCV (40 AP), only vs Grab and grab-type entangles (-1 1/2), OIF SlickSuit (-1/2). 20 real points.

[Psylint]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Actually,

 

I was thinking about just going stupidly munchkin...

 

The Eternally falling brick gun 2" teleport usable as an attack, gates, limited use (gates must always be parallel, one over the other) ranged.

 

BFG of Brick Slaying... AutoFire RKA x 10, variable SFX, variable advantage, penetrating, armor piercing x4. +12 OCV with autofire.

 

Brick what brick? Tunneling, ranged, UAA, fill in.

 

Gravity's a [censored] Flight UAA, ranged, defense is flight, desolid.

 

You annoy me.... Desolid, UAA, ranged (only vulnerable to gadget o'doom #13's special effect)

 

Punt... multipower attack change environment 0 Gravity, Flight UAA ranged, EB 2x Knockback, ((should be Body 2x - knockback resistance)

 

Do not Pass Go, Do not Collect $200... Teleport, Gates, Mega Scale, only to fixed position [jail cell of ultimate impregnability] Continuous... + martial throw.

 

Summon Mongol Horde... Summon 128 150pt. martial artists...(sure, they can't win, but how long is it gonna take to plow through them?)

 

Spoiled Sport.... RKA, no range, time delay, AP, Penetrating... series of limpet mines with unbreakable glue staggered to all detonate on Phase 2 of Turn 2.

 

Or just say the heck with it, re-roll as a telekinetic martial artist with 12 speed and missile deflection (for those pesky SUV's they like to toss about).

 

Peace

[OzMike]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

How about a 1D6 RKA, vs Hex (Accurate), +10 Stun Multiplier for Stun Lottery? Only 60 active points.

[MilkmanDan]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

For a non-flying brick, have your brick or TK person throw the brick up in the air. Team up with the energy projector so that, when the Brick hits the apex of the throw, they get popped even higher.

 

Plummeting HtH characters are markedly ineffective in combat.

[Roter Baron]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

You can't "out-build" a munchkin-character without disrupting the game any further. A soon as you build a character to out-power a munchkin-brick (or munchkin-anything for that matter), the munchkin-brick's player with think about an even more outlandish and far-fetched way to cancel said power. So you hav eto do it again and agian with him doing the same vice versa ending the character and maybe the campiagn with a hodgepodge caracter living in a hodgepodge world.

 

In that case I would advice you as the gm to speak with the players IF this is not what you intend your campaign to become. To each his own and if it is fun - more power to whomever. But I would probably not have much fun playing or gming such a "thing" (won't call it "game" or "campaign", nossir!).

[Cancer]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

A Desolid character with an Affects Real World attack will frustrate the living crap out of a standard brick.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

How about figuring out what their Susceptibilities and Vulnerabilities are and playing on them? And there's always Psychological Limitations; combine some mental powers with the brick's Psych Limits and watch the fun unfold.

 

Even more fiendish, go after the people close to the brick. There's a reason why so many villains have gone after Lois Lane over the years, and it's not because they love the sound of her annoying voice.

 

BTW, this is a seriously entertaining thread.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

You use sweeps, throws, and other knockdown/back effects. They buy 1" of Flight or more likely Teleport with position shift (must travel intervening space) to model "jump up" or "rolling to feet." 0 phase action, they're back on their feet.

 

 

No offense meant, but that sounds more like something a martial artist should have than a brick.

 

Isn't there a point where a GM has to say, "No, that doesn't fit the character, I won't let you buy it?" no matter how the player pleads?

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Our group had a character with a massive variable power pool defined as "fundamental forces of motion." Bricks tended to get annoyed when she'd stand there and reverse the kinetic energy of their attacks. She was their worst nightmare. When she said "go ahead' date=' knock yourself out" she wasn't kidding...[/quote']

 

Say, how would that be built? I'm guessing a high dice total Damage Shield with Limits like "only up to damage rolled against character" with a Linked PD Force Field or Armor to represent the "redirecting the damage" part?

[Nightfly]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

No, snipers go prone to hide and (in Hero terms) Brace and Set.

 

Your reasoning also doesn't explain why a character's OCV doesn't suffer in HtH when he's Prone. Can you move as fast on your back or stomach as on your feet?

 

Groundfighting (Fantasy Hero, pg.157)

 

Attacking from the ground (prone) imposes a -2 OCV penalty on both HTH and Ranged attacks.

 

Prone characters are also at their full DCV vs. other prone characters.

 

Characters can eliminate groundfighting penalties by making a PS: Groundfighting roll (or buying Use Art While Prone for martial arts).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Groundfighting (Fantasy Hero, pg.157)

 

Attacking from the ground (prone) imposes a -2 OCV penalty on both HTH and Ranged attacks.

 

Prone characters are also at their full DCV vs. other prone characters.

 

Characters can eliminate groundfighting penalties by making a PS: Groundfighting roll (or buying Use Art While Prone for martial arts).

I wasn't aware of that since I don't have FH and in any case it's an optional rule since it's not in the core rulebook. It makes complete sense, though, and probably should be included.

[Roter Baron]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

What happend to the old trick: Out-Block him!

 

Use your training and your Speed, young grasshopper and Block him, put level to DCV and frustrated him with his 6 or less chance to even see your shadow!

 

Then Find his Weakness a couple of times and then it is Offensive Strike Time to his weak points (knees, liver, nuts (THOU FIEND!)).

 

Use STUNO - THE STUN RAY to give you an extra edge (never leave home without!) ...

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

I agree with the Baron -- when martial artists are facing bricks, combat levels in DCV and multiple Find Weakness rolls are your friend!

[palaskar]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Surprisingly, no one has mentioned the Wizard's device to beat the Thing: Flight, UAO. A lot cheaper than TK, and it works regardless of the brick's size.

[Roter Baron]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

If you are really underpowered calling for a BIGGER, MEANER BRICK for help can do a lot ...

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Surprisingly' date=' no one has mentioned the Wizard's device to beat the Thing: Flight, UAO. A lot cheaper than TK, and it works regardless of the brick's size.[/quote']

 

Shouldn't that be Flight, UAA*? But yeah, it's a very good idea for keeping that annoying (non-flying) brick out of your hair.

 

* -- Usable As Attack?

[mikesama]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Snapdragon had a great way to deal with bricks, get them in the water. Since she could breathe underwater it made perfect sense and her martial grab was good enough to make them work at getting out so she could keep them fighting her and for air at the same time.

[Psylint]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

The utility of Flight UAA is one of the reasons why it is almost stomped on by a GM. After all to be completely munchkin

 

4" Flight, usable at range +1/2 , usable as an attack +1, defense is Desolid or Flight

 

Is a 20pt. ish Brick be gone. Add an AoE and it works against a large majority of your High DCV melee types too.

 

From the banned files:

 

Judgment... 1d6 Mind Control, Cumulative, Continuous, Uncontrolled, limited effect "Kill yourself" Charges 1 Continuing Charge, 1 day. Requires Ego +50 effect, 64 x Max effect.

 

Pair it with Mind Scan and

 

"No one escapes their past. No one escapes Judgment" -V

 

Or

High DEX, High Speed, Teleport Usable as an Attack, 4x mass

 

Grab, bamf, 1/2 bamf or full bamf (depending on whether "letting go is an attack or 0 phase action) drop for eventually terminal velocity damage.

[Kirby]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Surprisingly' date=' no one has mentioned the Wizard's device to beat the Thing: Flight, UAO. A lot cheaper than TK, and it works regardless of the brick's size.[/quote']

Shouldn't that be Flight, UAA*? But yeah, it's a very good idea for keeping that annoying (non-flying) brick out of your hair.

 

* -- Usable As Attack?

The utility of Flight UAA is one of the reasons why it is almost stomped on by a GM. After all to be completely munchkin....

I agree that Flight (or Teleport, Superleap, etc.) UAA is down the path of munchkin playing, primarily because there's not a standard defense against it (like N-Ray vision, I believe movement powers with UAA should be required to have at least one power that negates it). FREd even mentions that Flight UAA would be abusive/illegal, but that didn't stop them from giving the power to Gravitar. Just one of the reasons I don't like her (but that's another thread).

 

YMMV.

[palaskar]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Whoops, FenrisUlf. It is Flight, UAA.

 

I'd definitely ban it if I was running a campaign. I mean, imagine this scenario:

 

Player: "I use my 1hex, UAA Flight with Megascale at Dr. Destroyer."

GM: "Uh...okaaay. You hit."

Player: "Now I use my Telescopic Vision and aim the good Doctor at Pluto."

GM: &^*!

 

Thats why I'm surprised the thing isn't stop signed. (It's not, right? I don't recall offhand.)

[Kirby]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Yes, Usable On Others (the main Advantage with its various subsets) does have a STOP Sign. Under the section The Dangers of Useable On Others (FREd, p.177-8) it talks about how the temptation UAA has abuse written on it.

[palaskar]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Ah. I was thinking of it being under "Flight." Thanks.