Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

[casualplayer]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Whoops, FenrisUlf. It is Flight, UAA.

 

I'd definitely ban it if I was running a campaign. I mean, imagine this scenario:

 

Player: "I use my 1hex, UAA Flight with Megascale at Dr. Destroyer."

GM: "Uh...okaaay. You hit."

Player: "Now I use my Telescopic Vision and aim the good Doctor at Pluto."

GM: &^*!

 

Thats why I'm surprised the thing isn't stop signed. (It's not, right? I don't recall offhand.)

 

It's really not that bad in play and the ability is entirely appropriate for all the genre material. Levitate spells incapacitate warriors without ranged attacks;superpeople and space rangers end up in null-grav fields all the time. The only real problem with Flight UAA is that there is no mass restriction like Teleport UAA, and that can be fixed with a simple "GM Sez" requiring anyone who buys the power to take a suitable limitation: Only mass up to TK capacity, Does not affect people w/ KB Resistance or Gravitic Powers, etc. The best write-up restriction that I usually see is when Flight UAA is in a MP with TK, and it ties up the MP pool almost entirely or fully allowing only limited or no access to any TK STR.

 

Bricks who get tagged by this usually pick up the Brick Trick of being able to flick a penny scrounged from their pocket to break the device or knockout the person responsible for the effect. I had a DI brick once who Pushed his Density Increase to get out of such a trap (one with a mass restriction built in.)

[archermoo]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

or 1 SPD (yep' date=' that 6 cps took down his 4 SPD to a 3 SPD. Now your 6 SPD goes twice as often.)[/quote']

 

As a note, draining 6 CPs of SPD does not reduce their SPD at all. You have to Drain a full 10 CPs before it has any effect. 5ER p107 under the heading Affecting Incremental Characteristics and Powers. Just like you have to Drain a full 3 CPs of Dex before their Dex drops.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

If you are really underpowered calling for a BIGGER' date=' MEANER BRICK for help can do a lot ...[/quote']

 

There was an old lady who swallowed a fly...

[Psylint]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

By the by Kirby:

 

Usable as an Attack does require that the player provide "negatory" defenses to the UAA.

 

I quote "In addition, there must be a reasonably common set of defenses which will cancel out the attack. For example, flight bought with this Advantage might not work against any character who had Flight, Desolidifcation or Power Defense"

 

Other standard Brick tactics I wanted to try but never did:

 

An AOE Transform, only non sentients to Water. Figure that'll slow 'em down when the street becomes an Olympic size pool.

 

Teleport usable as an attack, with position shift; followed by Darkness usable as an attack.

 

Peace

[Egyptoid]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Grab the Brick, go Desolid UAA with him, carry him deep into the ground, let go...

 

GMs will allow it, because its more risky than Flight UAA at range...

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Quicksand.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Grab the Brick' date=' go [b']Desolid UAA[/b] with him, carry him deep into the ground, let go...

 

GMs will allow it, because its more risky than Flight UAA at range...

A 100 Active Point Power just to deal with bricks? Wouldn't it be more generally useful to just buy a 20d6 attack?

[hfergus]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

These two have been dealt with - kinda - but I have a slighltly different twist.

TK - unless the brick can fly, weighs a lot or grabs something firmly attached to the ground (All viable defenses by the way) Just lift him up once he is holding nothing and pound on him. Works indoors too if the room is not too small. Tking him way up requires outdoors.

 

T-port has weight limitations ( and flying for his "flying lesson" attack Super leap, a common brick power, also can reduce falls), but less defense. I have one character who t-ports them up as far as he can see and lets them go. He calls it "flying lessons. And bounces don't count" Not too abused as he typically only has 3 charges and typically holds one in reserve to use for "getting the heck out of Dodge" If indoors He can also t-port them "away" (where depends on a lot of things - Antarctica is a favorite place when he can - this is very limited as to how and when - same 3 charges) If the brick is out of the combat for a while, when he returns he's more outnumbered. Bricks hate this guy ("$%#@ skinny wizard!)

[nexus]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

These two have been dealt with - kinda - but I have a slighltly different twist.

TK - unless the brick can fly, weighs a lot or grabs something firmly attached to the ground (All viable defenses by the way) Just lift him up once he is holding nothing and pound on him. Works indoors too if the room is not too small. Tking him way up requires outdoors.

 

The brick can break the Grab as normal. They have to contend with falling but Leaping can reduce that. Flight Usable As an Attack gets around that. There's not much they do against the Hoist and Heave TK trick though except get something like "Casual Might" so their Casual Strength is high enough to avoid break out immediatel.

[Patriot]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Grab the Brick' date=' go [b']Desolid UAA[/b] with him, carry him deep into the ground, let go...

 

GMs will allow it, because its more risky than Flight UAA at range...

 

Power defense defends vs that IIrc....And what brick doesnt have a little of that?

[nexus]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

I wouldn't allow that with Desol usable as an Attack to be "instant death" but that's just me. Even if you do have to Grab and over power the Brick to pull it off.

[Comic]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Water.

 

How many Bricks have bought up Swimming (nice necro, btw)?

 

Sure, they won't drown, but if they're in water, and swim all of 2" per phase, and can't leap, grab things and throw them practically, set or brace or resist knockback.. they're fish in a barrel.

 

How you get the water to them.. that's your problem.

[incrdbil]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Water.

 

How many Bricks have bought up Swimming (nice necro, btw)?

 

Sure, they won't drown, but if they're in water, and swim all of 2" per phase, and can't leap, grab things and throw them practically, set or brace or resist knockback.. they're fish in a barrel.

 

How you get the water to them.. that's your problem.

 

Double knock back attacks. Or, if you have really strong TK..or are a brick yourself, just throw them. Ranged teleport against others (terribly overpriced for the effect, but works here.)

 

A brick who relies on cheap movement powers like extra running, or leaping can find those powers rather easily suppressed/drained. A Brick that can't move isn't much of a threat.

 

If you feel the need to cheese..extra dimensional movement, UAA, ranged.

 

Hmm, to annoy a brick, for a little while, make a a low dice drain attack with a limited form of continuing attack/trigger--if only goes off when the brick uses more than his casual STR.

 

It's more of an interesting problem than a valid combat tactic, but it could be a nice dilemma for a GM to toss at a brick PC who is in a situation where hsi high STR makes him super effective; now he has to make his shots count.

[hfergus]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

The brick can break the Grab as normal. They have to contend with falling but Leaping can reduce that. Flight Usable As an Attack gets around that. There's not much they do against the Hoist and Heave TK trick though except get something like "Casual Might" so their Casual Strength is high enough to avoid break out immediatel.

A brick can break a TK grab? I'll have to look that up. If it's in the rules, I have one question. How can you break a non material grab if you do not have non material powers? Of course, depending on the TK it might be valid. The Tk in question is pure mind, so I do not see how strength can break the grab. If it's in the rules I may change the way the power is built. Or ignore it. (Come find me rules police! Bwa ha ha!)

[nexus]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Telekinesis is a Power not a special effect. Telekinesis is basically Strength usable at Range with some elements of Indirect. It can represent a number of things including but not limited to Psychokinsis A Grab maneuver used with Telekinesis is the same as any other Grab and can resist with Strength. Special Effects don't matter that much.

 

You can get the effect your looking by using Flight Usable As an Attack, at range. It's not really the expensive for what it does (render anyone without Flight or some other powers largely helpless except for DCV which I don't -think- is reduced).

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

It wouldn't be a one-shot-and-he's-out type deal, but if you have a telekinetic or force field projector who wants to give bricks something to worry about besides who to hit next:

 

Say Goodnight, Gracie: RKA 1d6, +4 STUN Multiplier (+2), NND (Defense is self-contained breathing or force field capable of holding in air; +1), Area Of Effect (One Hex, Nonselective; +1/4), Continuous (+1); Extra Time (Extra Segment; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4). 79 Active Points, 45 Real Points

 

Way back when, the Invisible Girl dropped the Hulk using this tactic.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

A brick can break a TK grab? I'll have to look that up. If it's in the rules' date=' I have one question. How can you break a non material grab if you do not have non material powers? Of course, depending on the TK it might be valid. The Tk in question is pure mind, so I do not see how strength can break the grab. If it's in the rules I may change the way the power is built. Or ignore it. (Come find me rules police! Bwa ha ha!)[/quote']

 

Adding UAA to any power (but especially Flight) requires a defense condition just like a NND attack.

 

The base power TK in HERO is just STR usable at Range. It's still visible by default. When it is used to grab someone the target can still resist the grab with their own STR just like any other grab.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Adding UAA to any power (but especially Flight) requires a defense condition just like a NND attack.

 

The base power TK in HERO is just STR usable at Range. It's still visible by default. When it is used to grab someone the target can still resist the grab with their own STR just like any other grab.

 

Good points. Base level Telekinesis isn't Marvel Girl - it's Green Lantern's power ring fist. Psychokinesis (TK based on ECV) is much more expensive, but would be much closer to the classic movie/comic book "telekinesis". I'd model the classic mentalist TK similar to Mental Paralysis, applying the same changes to TK that are used on Entangle.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

It wouldn't be a one-shot-and-he's-out type deal, but if you have a telekinetic or force field projector who wants to give bricks something to worry about besides who to hit next:

 

Say Goodnight, Gracie: RKA 1d6, +4 STUN Multiplier (+2), NND (Defense is self-contained breathing or force field capable of holding in air; +1), Area Of Effect (One Hex, Nonselective; +1/4), Continuous (+1); Extra Time (Extra Segment; -1/2), No Knockback (-1/4). 79 Active Points, 45 Real Points

 

Way back when, the Invisible Girl dropped the Hulk using this tactic.

 

This build needs 1 of the following to be effective:

1. Contain the target by linking the attack to either a TK Grab or an Englobing Force Wall.

2. Or add the Mobile Advantage with some extra movement.

 

Otherwise the target can escape the "Continuous + AOE" by just moving 1".

[nexus]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Adding UAA to any power (but especially Flight) requires a defense condition just like a NND attack.

 

I'm not sure if you were referring to me but I know that that's why I mentioned except the target could be held helpless except for certain powers (usually Flight is one of them, IME).

 

Good points. Base level Telekinesis isn't Marvel Girl - it's Green Lantern's power ring fist. Psychokinesis (TK based on ECV) is much more expensive' date=' but would be much closer to the classic movie/comic book "telekinesis". I'd model the classic mentalist TK similar to Mental Paralysis, applying the same changes to TK that are used on Entangle.[/quote']

 

There's a pretty good discussion about this sort of thing in The Ultimate Mentalist.

[hfergus]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Telekinesis is a Power not a special effect. Telekinesis is basically Strength usable at Range with some elements of Indirect. It can represent a number of things including but not limited to Psychokinsis A Grab maneuver used with Telekinesis is the same as any other Grab and can resist with Strength. Special Effects don't matter that much.

 

You can get the effect your looking by using Flight Usable As an Attack, at range. It's not really the expensive for what it does (render anyone without Flight or some other powers largely helpless except for DCV which I don't -think- is reduced).

Yup, you're right. I looked it up. I used the word "grab" when I meant "picked up". (see tk entry. It considers this different than a "grab".) This is what the character did. I think this is what we are disagreeing over. My comment about breaking out (of being picked up) is still valid, however. If someone picks you up, you can counter by attacking him or prying his arms off you. Unless your brick has a ranged attack when lifted by TK, the first option is out. As too the second... what arms? What can the brick attack or pry off? Logically, I can't see it. What if your TK effect is wind, for example? I don't care how strong you are, if you can't fly and the wind picks you up off the ground, your only hope is to grab on to something still attached to the ground and pray it does not break off or come out of the ground. You may be strong enough to "grab the ground", but it better be firm (like a rock) or it may come off in your hands. ("Great. I grabbed the ground and now all I have is handfulls of dirt. Next time I grab a rock. If it detaches, at least I'll have a weapon I can throw.") I the final ruling is that it works like strength in the rules, period, I guess I'll have to use flight usable as attack. However, in this case I'd have to put a limitation "not useable on self" to simulate what I am trying to do. (They can't fly -yet) Also, flight has no weight limitations (I just read it) I want a weight limitation or else the character could send a supertanker into the sky. They could then drop it on the bricks' head by cutting off endurance. Again, not the effect I want. I want a character who could lift Bulldozer (and others), but a very heavy brick would not budge. ("Just how much does he weigh, anyway?") Sigh. It can be built, but TK is easier. (I can always build it in the Hero system, but it can be clunky or very expensive for a small effect.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Yup' date=' you're right. I looked it up. I used the word "grab" when I meant "picked up". (see tk entry. It considers this different than a "grab".) ...[/quote']

 

Incorrect.

 

from:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter One

page 229

 

 

USING TELEKINESIS

Except where noted otherwise, a character can use Telekinetic STR any way he could use normal STR — it can pick things up, Grab characters, “squeeze” something, throw things (the same distance a character with that amount of STR could throw the object with a “Running Throw”; see page 35), or “punch” an opponent.

 

To use Telekinesis for any purpose, a character has to succeed with an Attack Roll to “hit” the object (meaning pick it up/Grab it/“punch” it). There’s no way for a character to move an object or person without “hitting” it first.

 

Telekinesis costs END to use, and is subject to the Range Modifier.

 

Picking something up and Grabbing it are just 2 different wordings for the exact same thing.

 

From an earlier thread on a similar topic here are some different ways to 'move things at range':

 

1) Telekinesis (25 STR), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Unlimited # of unwilling targets.] - END=7

 

1a) Flight 5", Position Shift* (* or any other method to get base power = to 15 active points), Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (x8 maximum weight per inanimate target; +1 3/4), Area Of Effect (20" Radius; +1 1/2), Selective (+1/4) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Maximum of 8 unwilling targets. AOE + Range only means that center of AOE can be something other than the power's owner] - END=7

 

2) Flight 10", Area Of Effect (6" Radius; +1), Usable As Attack (x8 maximum weight per inanimate target; +1 3/4) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Maximum of 8 unwilling targets.] - END=7

 

3) Flight 15", Ranged (+1/2), Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Power can be SHARED among a maximum of 8 willing targets (including owner). ] - END=7

 

4) Flight 15", Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/2), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Power can be shared with 1 target (or granted to 2) within 5" radius simultaneously.] - END=7

 

5) Flight 25", Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/2) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Power can be shared with 1 target (or granted to 2) via touch* simultaneously. * Only required to initially grant power, once granted only line of sight is required to maintain.] - END=7

 

6) Flight 30", Usable By Other (+1/4) (75 Active Points) [Notes: Power can be granted (but not used at same time) to 1 target via touch*. * Only required to initially grant power, once granted only line of sight is required to maintain.] - END=7

 

further notes:

END is paid by EVERY user in the case of "Usable By Other" and Usuable Simultaneously" but is only paid by the owner in the case of TK and "Usable As Attack".

[nexus]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

Yup' date=' you're right. I looked it up. I used the word "grab" when I meant "picked up". (see tk entry. It considers this different than a "grab".) [/quote']

 

You have to Grab a character to pick them up (See Grab). Using Telekinsis to do so is exactly the same as doing it with your normal Strength. "Picking up" only refers to Grabbing an inanimate object vs Grabbing a character or something that will actively resist the action.

[hfergus]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

I'm not going to argue about "grab" vs "pick up" since you have to grab to pick up. But grab also includes squeezing and pinning arms to the side, which is not the effect I wanted. I figured out how to do it using TK though. (though it's expensive) Add NND, defense is holding onto something firmly attached to the ground that will not break off. The expense makes sense, since it can be quite effective. It could be cheapened by a limitation of "only to lift and/or move" which fits my concept. (I haven't decided about slamming into walls, which would demand "does body" and the limitation would go to "no pinning limbs or squeezing".) Also the rules deny the "drop a supertanker on someone's head" since usable as an attack limits the mass, even though flight does not. (just looked it up) I'll try building it both ways to see which is cheaper, although I may use the TK even if it more expensive as it fits my concept better and it can be quite effective.

 

Thanks for your input. You helped make the character better and more within the rules. (Not even my character, and I'm the GM! I just helped on the concept.)

[nexus]

Re: Favorite Anti-Brick tricks?

 

No Normal Defense doesn't negate effect rolls. Strength isn't a "Defense" against being grabbed it's how it's resisted. Similarly adding NND to Mind Control doesn't eliminate the Effect or breakout rolls it just allows the attack to ignore Mental Defense and it does nothing to Entangle since it doesn't apply against the Defense.

 

Of course, as the GM you can rule otherwise.