FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Giants' social standing is determined by the color of their skin. Hill Giants are the Cecil the Slack-Jawed Yokel of the D&D universe' date=' and should come equipped with banjos.[/quote']

Minor correction: It's Cletus, the Slack-Jawed Yokel.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Inspired by a recent post on another thread:

 

That wizards as a general rule, tend to be weak and frail, physically. That they are so because they spend their time in libraries, studying, and get little or no physical exercise. Or conversely, that they get little to no physical exercise because they are already weak and frail. That no type of magic involves or requires physical exertion.

[BlackSword]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Inspired by a recent post on another thread:

 

That wizards as a general rule, tend to be weak and frail, physically. That they are so because they spend their time in libraries, studying, and get little or no physical exercise. Or conversely, that they get little to no physical exercise because they are already weak and frail. That no type of magic involves or requires physical exertion.

Part 2, that these weak and frail ivory tower scholars will throw themselves into a difficult life of adventuring, living outdoors, and crawling through dark and dangerous caves.

 

Part 3 (from d20), these scholars, weak and frail from all their hard study, have the least number skill points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Part 3 (from d20)' date=' these scholars, weak and frail from all their hard study, have the least number skill points.[/quote']

 

My L1 wizard had 7 skill points per level. That seems quite adequate.

[Maur]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Not if you compare that to the Rogue at the same Int

[jtelson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Not if you compare that to the Rogue at the same Int

 

True but a rogue with the same int as a wizard is likely to have sacrificed a lot of his other stats to improve one that is generally considered less useful for the class (Note: Int is generally my highest stat when I play a rogue so I'm well aware of what is costs me in other attributes.)

[Tonio]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

True but a rogue with the same int as a wizard is likely to have sacrificed a lot of his other stats to improve one that is generally considered less useful for the class (Note: Int is generally my highest stat when I play a rogue so I'm well aware of what is costs me in other attributes.)

 

It all depends on the kind of Rogue you're playing. A non-combat Rogue, based on lockpicking, trap disarming, etc. would want high Int. This was introduced with 3rd Ed.'s skill system, though. Before, Dex and Str were always the way to go.

[jtelson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

It all depends on the kind of Rogue you're playing. A non-combat Rogue' date=' based on lockpicking, trap disarming, etc. would want high Int. This was introduced with 3rd Ed.'s skill system, though. Before, Dex and Str were always the way to go.[/quote']

 

Well, Pick Lock and Disable Device are both Dex based Skills so particularly at lower levels haveing a high Dex helps more than having a breadth of skills (+4 Int bonus gets me extra skills/ +4 dex bonus gets me an 8 starting skill total for LP and DD {plus probably tumble} with 1 Feat those are 10's with a second Feat one can be a 13 at 1st Level). If I've pushed for an 18 most of my other stats are going to be capped at 12 dropping my starting check to a 5. Once you're a higher level and the d20 becomes less relevant, then breadth becomes more important than depth, but since the best locks in the game require a 40 to pick, every bonus you can get helps.

[BlackSword]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

My L1 wizard had 7 skill points per level. That seems quite adequate.

And also requires a 20 Int, which is above what most starting players have. Going with the 'game theory' your character had extra skills not because of training, but because of natural talent. The logic of the weak spellcaster is also applied to sorcerors, and since the spellcasting trait for sorcerors is Charisma, they don't get to double dip high Int for spellcasting bonuses and extra skills.

Not if you compare that to the Rogue at the same Int

Or Barbarian, or Bard, or Ranger of the same Int.

[teh bunneh]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I once played a high-INT fighter. Don't recall the stats, but it was something like 16 or 17 INT. Dump-stat was DEX -- didn't matter, since he was wearing the heaviest possible armor meaning his DEX bonus didn't matter much.

 

Problem was... I quickly ran out of things to spend my skill points on. Fighters only have a couple of class skills -- Ride, Climb... maybe a couple more. I was blowing all my extra points on cross-class skills. I ended up throwing away a couple of Feats to give myself some more class skills. It ended up being a hideously inefficient character, just because I decided to play a concept not catered to by the rules.

 

Which brings me to my main (and really, only) complaint about d20/D&D. Unless you want to house-rule the heck out of it, you can't play your own game. By the rules, you are required to play Monte Cook's game. Now, Monte is a great game designer and I'm sure he's a nice guy, but until he shows up at my house on Saturday night with a bag of chips and a stack of books, I'm not interested in playing his game. I want to play my game. And in D&D, that's simply not possible (at least, not without making a ton of house rules).

 

I want to play my game, so I play Hero.

[Lucius]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I once played a high-INT fighter. Don't recall the stats, but it was something like 16 or 17 INT. Dump-stat was DEX -- didn't matter, since he was wearing the heaviest possible armor meaning his DEX bonus didn't matter much.

 

Problem was... I quickly ran out of things to spend my skill points on. Fighters only have a couple of class skills -- Ride, Climb... maybe a couple more. I was blowing all my extra points on cross-class skills. I ended up throwing away a couple of Feats to give myself some more class skills. It ended up being a hideously inefficient character, just because I decided to play a concept not catered to by the rules.

 

Which brings me to my main (and really, only) complaint about d20/D&D. Unless you want to house-rule the heck out of it, you can't play your own game. By the rules, you are required to play Monte Cook's game. Now, Monte is a great game designer and I'm sure he's a nice guy, but until he shows up at my house on Saturday night with a bag of chips and a stack of books, I'm not interested in playing his game. I want to play my game. And in D&D, that's simply not possible (at least, not without making a ton of house rules).

 

I want to play my game, so I play Hero.

 

Can I quote you on that?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I just did, but you know what I mean.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Not if you compare that to the Rogue at the same Int

 

Skill points are a key special ability granted to Rogues, so I have no issue with that. Wizards get spells instead.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

And also requires a 20 Int' date=' which is above what most starting players have.[/quote']

 

18 INT and Human. He'll hit 20 at 8th level and have 8 skill points.

 

Going with the 'game theory' your character had extra skills not because of training' date=' but because of natural talent. The logic of the weak spellcaster is also applied to sorcerors, and since the spellcasting trait for sorcerors is Charisma, they don't get to double dip high Int for spellcasting bonuses and extra skills.[/quote']

 

Nor do Sorcerors study.

 

Or Barbarian' date=' or Bard, or Ranger of the same Int.[/quote']

 

Wizards will generally focus on INT because of its importance to the class, which pushes their skills up. The wizard will also likely have many skills reflective of study, rather than the more active skills attributed to the above classes.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I once played a high-INT fighter. Don't recall the stats, but it was something like 16 or 17 INT. Dump-stat was DEX -- didn't matter, since he was wearing the heaviest possible armor meaning his DEX bonus didn't matter much.

 

Problem was... I quickly ran out of things to spend my skill points on. Fighters only have a couple of class skills -- Ride, Climb... maybe a couple more. I was blowing all my extra points on cross-class skills. I ended up throwing away a couple of Feats to give myself some more class skills. It ended up being a hideously inefficient character, just because I decided to play a concept not catered to by the rules.

 

Mine was a 14 INT human. He bought up Blacksmithing, Weaponsmithing and Armorsmithing. Then he made his own masterwork items.

[Markdoc]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Mine was a 14 INT human. He bought up Blacksmithing' date=' Weaponsmithing and Armorsmithing. Then he made his own masterwork items.[/quote']

 

Smacks forehead. I can't believe I never thought of that!

 

cheers, Mark

[BlackSword]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

18 INT and Human. He'll hit 20 at 8th level and have 8 skill points.

Wizards get 2 + (Int Modifier) in skill points, an 18 Int is a 4 modifier, 2 + 4 = 6.

Nor do Sorcerors study.

Which destroys the entire argument of why they get so few proficienies and so few 'practical' skill points. Barbarians don't 'study' either yet they have higher base skill points than sorcerors.

Wizards will generally focus on INT because of its importance to the class, which pushes their skills up.

All of which is moot since I noted 'of the same Int.'

The wizard will also likely have many skills reflective of study, rather than the more active skills attributed to the above classes.

And this goes back to the weak and frail intellectual (with no practical outdoor/survival skills) mucking it through dungeons.

[jtelson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Wizards get 2 + (Int Modifier) in skill points' date=' an 18 Int is a 4 modifier, 2 + 4 = 6.[/quote']

 

Wizard (2) + Human (1) + 18 Int (4) +1 Int 4th Lvl (0) +1 Int 8th Lvl(1)

2 + 1 + 4 + 1 = 8

 

Now I want to watch Clue

[Vestnik]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

And this goes back to the weak and frail intellectual (with no practical outdoor/survival skills) mucking it through dungeons.

 

Why am I picturing Woody Allen trying to make his way through the Tomb of Horrors?

[jtelson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Why am I picturing Woody Allen trying to make his way through the Tomb of Horrors?

 

Now I want to watch "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex * But Were Afraid to Ask "

[teh bunneh]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Why am I picturing Woody Allen trying to make his way through the Tomb of Horrors?

 

"My doctor said I should avoid having razor-sharp poison-tipped spears enter my body at any time."

[BlackSword]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Wizard (2) + Human (1) + 18 Int (4) +1 Int 4th Lvl (0) +1 Int 8th Lvl(1)

2 + 1 + 4 + 1 = 8

 

Now I want to watch Clue

Right, sorry, forgot about human.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Wizards get 2 + (Int Modifier) in skill points' date=' an 18 Int is a 4 modifier, 2 + 4 = 6.[/quote']

 

Wizard (2) + Human (1) + 18 Int (4) +1 Int 4th Lvl (0) +1 Int 8th Lvl(1)

2 + 1 + 4 + 1 = 8

 

Blacksword, I think you are missing the +1 for being human.

 

Which destroys the entire argument of why they get so few proficienies and so few 'practical' skill points. Barbarians don't 'study' either yet they have higher base skill points than sorcerors.

 

Barbarians spend their lives in the wilderness honing their wilderness skills. Thus, they get skill points to boost these skills. Rogues spend their lives practicing various abilities, such as searching for traps, disabling them, opening locks, climbing walls, picking pockets, etc. Thus, they get many skill points for their "studies" in this regard. Wizards also study, but their studies focus largely on magic, gaining spells and not skills.

 

WHAT they typically study impacts their class skills. That wizard sequestered in his tower tends to gain knowledge skills, rather than physical skills such as those on the Rogue and Barbarian class lists.

 

All of which is moot since I noted 'of the same Int.'

 

To me, "of the same INT" is moot. Show me a 12 INT wizard character that anyone considers running as a long-term player character.

 

And this goes back to the weak and frail intellectual (with no practical outdoor/survival skills) mucking it through dungeons.

 

You mean like a studious intellectual archaeologist mucking it through the Egyptian desert looking for ancient tombs? They generally involve guides and porters in their travels. Those individuals look after heavy lifting and any necessary protection from dangerous animals. Ported into the D&D milieu, I would expect they would also hire warriors to deal with the many monsters that prowl the wilderness, and clerics to deal with the likely Undead in the tomb.

 

Like most good "team games", D&D requires the characters to have their niches where they are skilled, and not to be good at everything and, as such, have no need for the other players' characters. Of course, D&D sets the niches by classes, making it considerably less flexible than Hero. It also falls apart if you pull the core assumptions out from under it - if those Rogue skills are never useful, for example, Rogues lose considerable utility. If the DM avoids using the Ranger's species enemy, the Ranger is depowered. If the opposition is generally resistant to magic, the wizard and sorcerer lose power.

[Vestnik]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Now I want to watch "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex * But Were Afraid to Ask "

 

The "Tomb of Horrors" -- a dark, dank hole in the ground in which, once you enter it, you die -- is an obvious Freudian reference to.. ahem.. I just won't go there. Let it suffice to say that Gygax has obvious psychological complexes regarding his mom.

[teh bunneh]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Can I quote you on that?

 

Sure.

[Maur]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Barbarians spend their lives in the wilderness honing their wilderness skills. Thus, they get skill points to boost these skills. Rogues spend their lives practicing various abilities, such as searching for traps, disabling them, opening locks, climbing walls, picking pockets, etc. Thus, they get many skill points for their "studies" in this regard. Wizards also study, but their studies focus largely on magic, gaining spells and not skills.

 

WHAT they typically study impacts their class skills. That wizard sequestered in his tower tends to gain knowledge skills, rather than physical skills such as those on the Rogue and Barbarian class lists.

 

So, how does a Wizard gain all those knowledge skills if their base skill points is 2? Wizards have all KS as class skills, but I've never seen any Wizard under 3rd or 3.5 able to even try and fill out the list even partly because they are limited in skill points, yet the rogues with similar Int have trouble spending all their points because they can keep most of their class skills at the level cap.