FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Yes, D&D incorporated a lot from other sources, but once 13 year old gamer geeks got ahold of it, there was no turning back.

 

I have a friend who seemed to think that Bulfinch, not to mention the ancient Greeks, got all of their critters out of the Monster Manual.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Yes, D&D incorporated a lot from other sources, but once 13 year old gamer geeks got ahold of it, there was no turning back.

 

I have a friend who seemed to think that Bulfinch, not to mention the ancient Greeks, got all of their critters out of the Monster Manual.

 

"Just one Medusa? Man, we took on a whole tribe of them last summer. Perseus is a punk, with a wussy sounding name."

[Lucius]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Of course they're D&Disms!

 

Perhaps in the sense I defined above, "the majority of gamers know of them from D&D, or games influenced by D&D."

 

In no real-world religion, past or present, are the gods "statted out", nor is perfect information about each god available. Even within the same religion, interpretations/depictions of gods vary between locations and cultures and individuals.

 

You are absolutely correct here.

 

 

And they didn't have these intricately detailed symbols' date=' and specific "favored weapons", etc. [/quote']

 

And incorrect here.

 

There may have been *some* Greek and Roman clerics dedicated to one specific god of the pantheon, to the exclusion of all the rest, but D&D gives us the assumption that *all* clerics are that way.

 

Depends a great deal on time and place - sometimes one is born to the priesthood, sometimes it is a form of civil service, or even an elective office.

 

And before Deities and Demigods came out, the impression D&D gave is of Gods who are almost non-entities - I don't think the original Players Handbook even required Clerics to provide a name for either their Deity or their religion. They just had to pick an alignment (other than Nuetral; if they are Nuetral they are Druids.)

 

 

And in D&D, multiple pantheons exist alongside each other, and they're all real! .

 

Historically, polytheistic cultures do regard their neighbors' Deities as real, although often interpreting them in terms of their own culture.

The number of Gods honored at Rome swelled as more and more peoples were conquered and absorbed into the empire. It was a principle of Roman seigecraft for their priests to perform rituals to contact and appease the Gods of the besieged and reassure them that they would still be honored under Roman rule, might get a new shrine at Rome itself, so there is no reason for them to go on protecting their followers from the Romans....

 

Again, it is a D&Dism. I can't think of any Greek myth where a mortal magically enters the underworld while alive and comes back again.

 

This has already been addressed. I wish I had a gold piece for every myth and folktale involving a journey to the afterlife or otherworld and back.

 

I know there are such myths about the gods doing so. But even if there are some that involve living mortals, D&D makes the assumption that this applies to all religions, and all "afterlife planes", for all settings.

 

An example of D&D's weakness for taking what should be setting specific materiel and embedding it in system rules.

 

And Greek myth provides the exact opposite of the "well-known and objective hell". In ancient Greek religion, pretty much everyone went to the same hell after death. Goodness or evilness was irrelevent. A few heroes got to go to Elysium. And earning the gods' favor or wrath was largely based on either their whim or your bloodline.

 

D&D's afterlife planes are a reflection of its alignment rules. As such, even though there are cultures that have complex multidimensional afterlives, we can call it a "D&Dism."

 

People knew who Hades was, but they still worshiped him...

 

And still do. I have half a pomegranite here saved from my Samhain ritual that I will bury under the New Moon in a couple of nights. I'm just not sure what your point is here or what it has to do with D&D.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Pedantic Pagan Pontificating on a Palindromedary

[Curufea]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

And incorrect here.

 

I'd just like to mention that the symbols and preferred weapons of a given god have changed over time, and that different communities would often view the god as having different symbols or preferred weapons/objects.

 

There is a tendency amongst those who don't study the actual history to lump 800AD-1700AD (from England to Japan) into "medieval" and class it as a "a period". Likewise to put all <400AD in all countries in the world into "the ancient period" and presume everyone thought and believed the same thing the entire time.

 

Religions, like language, evolve over time to fit the culture they are in.

 

When religions become organised - that is when they will start to delineate "these are our trademark approved symbols for our gods". But when a religion becomes organised there is ALWAYS more than one organisation and they will always differ on the practice of the religion.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

You aren't trying. Orpheus and Eurydice here

 

Adonis is a mortal raised in the underworld who returns, as discussed here

 

Hercules/Heracles' final labour required him to drag Cerberus up from the underworld. See?

 

The discussion of Cerberus here mentions a couple of other trips to the underworld.

 

And these are just Greco-Roman. Norse and Egyptian? Maybe not - how many Heros (as opposed to gods) did they feature?

 

Nor is this by any means unique to Greek lore.

Did any of these examples cast a magic spell to enter the underworld? Or did they make a physical journey, cross a river, and they're in the underworld?

 

What ancient culture(s) viewed the afterlife plane(s) as separate dimensions, the way D&D does?

 

Like a lot of things this thread attributed to D&D, they were incorporated in from other sources.

No one here is claiming that D&D made up all this stuff out of whole cloth. D&D took some ideas from different sources, misinterpreting them in some cases, and applied them as universal standards to Fantasy Role Playing Games. Other FRPGs that came later made the assumption that this was the way FRPGs *must* be.

 

And incorrect here.

Did all "clerics" of Apollo learn archery? Did all clerics of Thor use a short-handled hammer as a combat weapon? What's the "favored weapon" of Aphrodite? Of Thoth? Of Lono?

 

In the real world, the gods did not exist for the sake of adventuring clerics - to give them spells and skills to survive encounters with monsters. In D&D (and most FRPGs), most characters need some "weapon proficiency", and it makes sense that an adventurer who aquires magic spells from Thor would also know how to weild a hammer as a weapon. But that's a D&D assumption that ain't necessarily so for all FRPGs.

 

And before Deities and Demigods came out, the impression D&D gave is of Gods who are almost non-entities - I don't think the original Players Handbook even required Clerics to provide a name for either their Deity or their religion. They just had to pick an alignment (other than Nuetral; if they are Nuetral they are Druids.)

Correct. I think the FRPG world might have been better off if that book had never come out. IMO, it would have been better to keep the gods abstract and metaphysical, and to keep religion fluid and organic. Deities and Demigods reads like a catalogue of factory-produced goods.

 

The point of the thread is not to be a bash-D&D-fest. Nor is it to argue over the various parts of D&D that have changed between (and within) editions. Nor is it to claim that D&D made up all of ancient mythology or folklore.

 

It is to point out assumptions made FOR FANTASY ROLE PLAYING GAMES that came from D&D, and are therefore taken as given IN FANTASY ROLE PLAYING GAMES, but that don't have to be the case.

[Drhoz]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

This has already been addressed. I wish I had a gold piece for every myth and folktale involving a journey to the afterlife or otherworld and back.

 

there's some interesting ones in Polynesian myth, certainly

[casualplayer]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Double post.

[casualplayer]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

What's the "favored weapon" of Aphrodite?

 

Do you really want me to tell you what the favored weapon of Aphrodite is? Bow-chicka-wow-wow!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Did any of these examples cast a magic spell to enter the underworld? Or did they make a physical journey, cross a river, and they're in the underworld?

 

What ancient culture(s) viewed the afterlife plane(s) as separate dimensions, the way D&D does?

 

So are you saying anything that D&D varies, in any way, from any other source becomes a D&Dism? OK - I guess "codified rules" are a D&Dism, then.

 

Other RPG's also write down their rules, so "The rules are written down, not passed down in an oral tradition from GM to GM" must be a D&Dism.

 

Did all "clerics" of Apollo learn archery? Did all clerics of Thor use a short-handled hammer as a combat weapon? What's the "favored weapon" of Aphrodite? Of Thoth? Of Lono?

 

This depends on what a "cleric" is, historically. To my knowledge, few, if any, real-world members of the clergy cast spells. That leaves them out of being clerics already.

 

It is to point out assumptions made FOR FANTASY ROLE PLAYING GAMES that came from D&D' date=' and are therefore taken as given IN FANTASY ROLE PLAYING GAMES, but that don't have to be the case.[/quote']

 

These can, however, be as broad or as narrow as one chooses to make them. Many so-called "D&Disms" arise from common play styles rather than from the rules themselves.

 

One could argue that "The dominant civilizations are made up of bipedal mammalian races which have two arms, two legs, a head with two eyes, two ears, a mouth and a nose" is a D&Dism.

 

To offer another item I consider a true D&Dism:

 

Currency is made up of precious metals formed into coins. All coins are the same size, shape and weight (despite being made of different metals) and their value does not vary when transported between locations. These coins are universal and indistinguishable one from another, except for the metal they are made of.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

So are you saying anything that D&D varies' date=' in any way, from any other source becomes a D&Dism?[/quote']

Sort of. It's the specific way D&D chose to define "planes" - what they are, where they are, how you get there and back, what lives in them, and what they do. A well-ordered, well-defined "wheel" of afterlives (or a square, in some of the 1st ed books), that conveniently lines up with the alignment chart.

 

There's a D&Dism for you! All the charts. Yes, it's very convenient (and generally a good thing) to have the *rules* in charts. But why are elements of the *setting* in charts? Again, very factory-like.

 

OK - I guess "codified rules" are a D&Dism, then.

 

Other RPG's also write down their rules, so "The rules are written down, not passed down in an oral tradition from GM to GM" must be a D&Dism.

I suppose you could say that. Though I'd call it one that *is* necessarily so.

 

This depends on what a "cleric" is, historically. To my knowledge, few, if any, real-world members of the clergy cast spells. That leaves them out of being clerics already.

Hence the D&Dism.

 

These can, however, be as broad or as narrow as one chooses to make them. Many so-called "D&Disms" arise from common play styles rather than from the rules themselves.

Correct. And some of those play styles, while not codified in the rules, may derive from the writing style of the rulebook, it's attitude and implications.

[casualplayer]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Sometimes you have to remind yourself that D&D was created by tactical tabletop gamers who named their units on a whim.

[Curufea]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Sometimes you have to remind yourself that D&D was created by tactical tabletop gamers who named their units on a whim.

 

True - hence this thread being an attempt to correct the more obviously wrong memes that are still being propagated.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

True - hence this thread being an attempt to correct the more obviously wrong memes that are still being propagated.

 

"I move my unit of Glaive-guisarme-fauchard-forkmen into place"

[Captain Obvious]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

"I move my unit of Glaive-guisarme-fauchard-forkmen into place"

 

Well, Gygax does seem to have an overpowering urge to classify and tabulate everything, and there are a lot of crazy hybrid weapons scattered through history. I think he did a decent job of nitpicking a class of weapons that really should have been generalized.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I suppose you could say that. Though I'd call it one that *is* necessarily so.

 

Why must a game be passed on in written form? Many childrens' games (Tag, numerous Tag variations, Hide & Seek, Red Rover, What Time Is It Mr. Wolf) managed for centuries without ever being reduced to written form.

 

Sure there are variances - but we have house rules to account for that in written games anyway. For that matter, that little proofreading error "% Liar" in the first D&D books caused a schism of its own...

[Steve]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I don't recall if this was mentioned.

 

Characters are built around a core of random dice rolls to determine their abilities. You are limited in your selection of abilities and classes and have to conceptualize around what the dice give you.

 

Corollary: That being said, most characters tend to be as thinly written as the sheets they are written on.

[Curufea]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I don't recall if this was mentioned.

 

Characters are built around a core of random dice rolls to determine their abilities. You are limited in your selection of abilities and classes and have to conceptualize around what the dice give you.

 

Corollary: That being said, most characters tend to be as thinly written as the sheets they are written on.

 

There was a trend in roleplaying games almost in rebellion to that idea for a few years - where it was necessary to create backgrounds as part of character generation.

Some modern indie games even go so far as to have character backgrounds ONLY - that is all the character generation needed for their rules.

Naturally, those kinds of games are rules light and are more storytelling than simulation - so the setting needs to be fairly familiar to all players.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

There was a trend in roleplaying games almost in rebellion to that idea for a few years - where it was necessary to create backgrounds as part of character generation.

Some modern indie games even go so far as to have character backgrounds ONLY - that is all the character generation needed for their rules.

Naturally, those kinds of games are rules light and are more storytelling than simulation - so the setting needs to be fairly familiar to all players.

Although I've also seen games that not only require character background details, but also use random generation tables to determine them! (I think there was some of this in one or more editions of D&D.)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

So are you saying anything that D&D varies, in any way, from any other source becomes a D&Dism? OK - I guess "codified rules" are a D&Dism, then.

 

In my opinion, to qualify it has to be something we all did when playing D&D, that doesn't really make any sense for you to do outside of a D&D game; it could be because of whatever peculiarity of the D&D rules encouraged the behavior, or it could be because you were 12 years old and didn't know any better (and became a behavior that got "codified" in the sense that anything you do habitually becomes "codified").

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Well' date=' Gygax does seem to have an overpowering urge to classify and tabulate everything, and there are a lot of crazy hybrid weapons scattered through history. I think he did a decent job of nitpicking a class of weapons that really should have been generalized.[/quote']

 

Totally.

Polearms are basically 1 weapon multipowers, with variations buying different slots....

Knife-onna-stick

Axe-onna-stick

Hammer-onna-stick

Pick-onna-stick

Stiletto-onna-stick

Hook-onna-stick

Can-opener-onna-stick

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Totally.

Polearms are basically 1 weapon multipowers, with variations buying different slots....

Knife-onna-stick

Axe-onna-stick

Hammer-onna-stick

Pick-onna-stick

Stiletto-onna-stick

Hook-onna-stick

Can-opener-onna-stick

 

Glaive-glaive-glacve-guisarme-glaive. Lovely glaive! Wonderful glaive!

 

SHADDUP! Bloody Kobolds....

[Kristopher]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Although I've also seen games that not only require character background details' date=' but also use random generation tables to determine them! (I think there was some of this in one or more editions of D&D.)[/quote']

 

The RPG games linked to Classic Battletech did this, as did Traveller, and many other games. This is one of the worst methods for character creation -- the very idea of having your character's background and past determined by random rolls is offensive to me.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

The RPG games linked to Classic Battletech did this' date=' as did Traveller, and many other games. This is one of the worst methods for character creation -- the very idea of having your character's background and past determined by random rolls is offensive to me.[/quote']

 

Two opposite viewpoints: (n) it can be a great aid to creativity, and (n+1) from a simmy standpoint, we hardly ever get to choose our own backgrounds.

[Kristopher]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Two opposite viewpoints: (n) it can be a great aid to creativity' date=' and (n+1) from a simmy standpoint, we hardly ever get to choose our own backgrounds.[/quote']

 

Have you seen how games like Traveller and the CBT RPG handle character creation? By the age that most starting characters are at, most people have taken quite a bit of control over the direction their life as taken. You might not get to choose who your parents are, but within the range of available choices, most people have chosen their own path many times over by the age of 18 to 24. Those games basically say "You have little to no power over the choices your character made before you started playing him/her."

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Have you seen how games like Traveller and the CBT RPG handle character creation?

 

Yes, I have seen those games. For people who like thm, the lifepath style character creation is a feature, not a bug.

 

You have a point about people being able to make life choices, but that's countered by, in Traveller and Classic Battletech, being part of a military organization that frequently takes those choices away. Being in the military, you go where they tell you to go, learn what they tell you to learn, do what they tell you to do, and occasionally get killed on their behalf.