FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

[casualplayer]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

So' date=' how does a Wizard gain all those knowledge skills if their base skill points is 2? Wizards have all KS as class skills, but I've never seen any Wizard under 3rd or 3.5 able to even try and fill out the list even partly because they are limited in skill points, yet the rogues with similar Int have trouble spending all their points because they can keep most of their class skills at the level cap.[/quote']

 

Wizards bust their humps as 0 level apprentices but once they get tenure they just coast along.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

So' date=' how does a Wizard gain all those knowledge skills if their base skill points is 2? Wizards have all KS as class skills, but I've never seen any Wizard under 3rd or 3.5 able to even try and fill out the list even partly because they are limited in skill points, yet the rogues with similar Int have trouble spending all their points because they can keep most of their class skills at the level cap.[/quote']

 

If the rogue wants nothing but knowledge skills, he spends all his time studying to gain those knowledge skills. Much of the wizard's study time goes to learning actual magic, something the rogue spends no time on.

 

Once you realize we're talking about how much time it takes to learn how to cast magic spells, we've tossed any "realism" out the window. Those studious Wizards get 12 Skill Points a level. Then spend 10 skill points on "magic" and the rest on whatever skills they want. I'd let a Wizard have 10 extra skill points (spent on their usual skill set, halved for cross class skills) if they wanted to forego a level of spellcasting for it.

[casualplayer]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Are you telling me your mages don't take a level or two of Rogue for the skill points and special abilities? You're missing out. Evasion will save your scrawny bookworm bottom.

[jtelson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

So' date=' how does a Wizard gain all those knowledge skills if their base skill points is 2? Wizards have all KS as class skills, but I've never seen any Wizard under 3rd or 3.5 able to even try and fill out the list even partly because they are limited in skill points, yet the rogues with similar Int have trouble spending all their points because they can keep most of their class skills at the level cap.[/quote']

 

Wizards will almost always have a higher Int than other classes. Giving them more skill points along with the understanding that they will have a high int means you want them to have a huge skill selection in addition to phenomemal cosmic power.

 

If the rogue is having trouble spending their skill points it's because the player is being incredibly focused, I would go so far as to say foolishly focused. The large skill point pool for rogues is part of their power set, rather than having Open Locks class ability, Stealth class ability, etc.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Are you telling me your mages don't take a level or two of Rogue for the skill points and special abilities? You're missing out. Evasion will save your scrawny bookworm bottom.

 

Nahh, other way around.

 

"Dude, the dukes fracking 0 level guardsmen just pwned me. This blows. This Magic User crap isn't gonna work. I wanna change class to Rogue and move to the big city.

 

Maybe I can find a Barbarian I can team up with who'll help keep me alive till I've built up some combat skills"

 

 

-possibly heard from The Grey Mousers player.

 

 

 

 

or not

[PhilFleischmann]

WTF are you guys doing?

 

If you want to discuss D&D skill point rules, I'd suggest going to the WotC site.

 

The subject of this thread is the assumptions made (and enforced) in D&D about the fantasy genre that have become so widespread, due to the popularity of D&D, that people often forget that the fanatsy genre does not have to be that way.

 

Showing off your knowledge of D&D rules on HERO's site strikes me as sort of like showing off your tofu recipes at a barbecue cook-off.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

Showing off your knowledge of D&D rules on HERO's site strikes me as sort of like showing off your tofu recipes at a barbecue cook-off.

 

Barbecued tofu....mmmmmmmm mm!

[jtelson]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

Showing off your knowledge of D&D rules on HERO's site strikes me as sort of like showing off your tofu recipes at a barbecue cook-off.

 

Barbecueing tofu is largely about sauce preparation. You're going to want to work with the firmest tofu you can find and the trick will be to create a sauce that makes it taste both barbequey and meaty. I've had tofu on a stick that I would have sworn was barbecued chicken, and good chicken at that.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

Barbecueing tofu is largely about sauce preparation. You're going to want to work with the firmest tofu you can find and the trick will be to create a sauce that makes it taste both barbequey and meaty. I've had tofu on a stick that I would have sworn was barbecued chicken' date=' and good chicken at that.[/quote']

 

Tofu is good when it's true to itself and admits it's tofu. When it tries to masquerade as meat, it only disappoints.

[L. Marcus]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

. . . Sneaky tofu . . .

[BlackSword]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

The subject of this thread is the assumptions made (and enforced) in D&D about the fantasy genre that have become so widespread, due to the popularity of D&D, that people often forget that the fanatsy genre does not have to be that way.

And one of those assumptions is how skill points are divided between classes, ie the scholarly wizard gets fewer skills and the 'class skills' are narrowly defined to only be about knowledges or magic, while the rogue has more points to spend on a much broader range skills. We've stated that assumption, now we are discussing the rules to ensure it is a valid assumption.

[BlackSword]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

If the rogue wants nothing but knowledge skills, he spends all his time studying to gain those knowledge skills. Much of the wizard's study time goes to learning actual magic, something the rogue spends no time on.

 

Once you realize we're talking about how much time it takes to learn how to cast magic spells, we've tossed any "realism" out the window. Those studious Wizards get 12 Skill Points a level. Then spend 10 skill points on "magic" and the rest on whatever skills they want. I'd let a Wizard have 10 extra skill points (spent on their usual skill set, halved for cross class skills) if they wanted to forego a level of spellcasting for it.

But that flies in the face or sorcerors who also only get 2 skill points, but it has already been said that they don't study magic. (or even Clerics who are also in the 2 skill poing ghetto and have their spells gifted by the gods).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

But that flies in the face or sorcerors who also only get 2 skill points' date=' but it has already been said that they don't study magic. (or even Clerics who are also in the 2 skill poing ghetto and have their spells gifted by the gods).[/quote']

 

Sorcerors don't study anything. Clerics presumably spend a lot of time studying the rituals of their church, the tenets of their religion, hymns, prayers and other matters that have no real adventuring application, but are important to their faith. I don't consider those spells "gifted" but rather earned by right of faith, and that faith is something that takes time to maintain.

 

Of course, all of this starts with "for balance purposes, how many skill points should these classes receive" and works backwards through "what is the rationale for the number of skill points these classes receive?"

 

As well, a decision has to be made as to what are "skills" and what are "class features". You could probably drop Bards 1 skill point per level and say they automatically add 1 rank of Perform per level, since a bard who doesn't max out Perform is pretty foolish. Animal Empathy could be removed from the skill list and made a class skill for Druids and Rangers (although this falls below the 100% likeliness of being raised every level). Turn Undead could be converted into a skill and added to the Cleric and Paladin class skills without making a huge change, and bump their skill points up one. Of course, this means either going back to the 3.0 approach that some skills cannot be taken by some classes, or allows other classes to choose to pick up these abilities, albeit slower. Even Sneak Attack could be a skill (every three or four full ranks allows you +1d6 when you meet the criteria).

 

The problem is that many class abilities are clearly "worth" more than 1 skill point per rank. A lot of them would better be considered feats - Sneak Attack; Improved Sneak Attack; etc. Arcane and Divine Spellcasting could be feats you take multiple times to rise through the spellcasting ranks. Spellcasting classes just get them as bonus feats. If we converted all class features into feats and skills, gave the various existing classes bonus feats to allow them access to their current abilities, and worked out a conversion of hit dice above 1d4, Base attack bonuses bonuses, skill points above 2 and saving throw advancement into feats, the system could be converted into a "design your character" structure rather than a "pick your class and customize with feats and skills" structure. Maybe that's D&D 4th Ed (well, maybe 40th ED ).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

If you want to discuss D&D skill point rules, I'd suggest going to the WotC site.

 

The subject of this thread is the assumptions made (and enforced) in D&D about the fantasy genre that have become so widespread, due to the popularity of D&D, that people often forget that the fanatsy genre does not have to be that way.

 

So, did you seriously think a thread on D&D tropes wasn't going to generate some D&D discussion (or that any thread lasts 20+ pages with no drifting or side discussions)? Still, nice try to rerail the thread.

[teh bunneh]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Sorcerors don't study anything. Clerics presumably spend a lot of time studying the rituals of their church' date=' the tenets of their religion, hymns, prayers and other matters that have no real adventuring application, but are important to their faith. I don't consider those spells "gifted" but rather earned by right of faith, and that faith is something that takes time to maintain.[/quote']

 

Ah, but those are both assumptions that the designers of D&D make. You want to play a Sorceror who's always wanted to be a "real" wizard, and who hits the books and studies hard? How about a priest who says, "Rituals? Hymns? My faith requires none of those! My god wants me to roam the world doing great deeds in his name!" Tough beans. The game isn't designed to accomodate that type of character. It all goes back to my original point -- if you're playing D&D, you're playing Monte Cook's game, not your own.

 

Which is perfectly fine if that's the game you want to play, or if you're willing to put in the work to house rule all those things that need to be changed (which, speaking from experience, is hard work).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

Ah' date=' but those are both assumptions that the designers of D&D make. You want to play a Sorceror who's always wanted to be a "real" wizard, and who hits the books and studies hard?[/quote']

 

Then multiclass into a wizard from all that study and hard work. Of course, if you lack a natural aptitude (ie have a low INT) then you won't be all that good at being a wizard, and you'll have to spend more time studying "book magic", leaving less time to study other things (like knowledge skills).

 

How about a priest who says' date=' "Rituals? Hymns? My faith requires none of those! My god wants me to roam the world doing great deeds in his name!"[/quote']

 

Off you go and travel, then. Spending much time spreading the word of your deity, of course, so you have limited learning time. Put points into wilderness skills. Mind you, the better answer here is likely to create the Deity which wishes it to be so and appropriate Domains with domain powers which could grant the skills the character wishes to have access to, perhaps at the cost of other class abilities. Perhaps this character gets certain wilderness skills as class skills, and extra skill points to access them [taking barbarian/ranger skill points and class skills as a guide], at the cost of being unable to turn the Undead and losing some more traditional cleric class skills [like Knowledge: religion].

 

Tough beans. The game isn't designed to accomodate that type of character. It all goes back to my original point -- if you're playing D&D' date=' you're playing Monte Cook's game, not your own.[/quote']

 

Very true. Many game systems incorporate assumed settings. Bill, wasn't it you who posted recently about a D&D game which had no PC (and very few non-PC) arcane spellcasters? That game isn't designed to accommodate the player who had visions of Merlin, Elric, the Great Skeeve, Belgarath or Gandalf dancing in his head, is it? Any game that departs from the purely free form sacrifices some types of characters.

 

Hero is designed for someone who wants to design his own game. D&D is much less so, but there are some rules for swapping class features, and more guidelines and suggestions.

 

Which is perfectly fine if that's the game you want to play' date=' or if you're willing to put in the work to house rule all those things that need to be changed (which, speaking from experience, is hard work). [/quote']

 

Designing a fantasy world using the Hero system isn't a simple 15 minute exercise either, is it? The cost of flexibility is complexity.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

And one of those assumptions is how skill points are divided between classes' date=' ie the scholarly wizard gets fewer skills and the 'class skills' are narrowly defined to only be about knowledges or magic, while the rogue has more points to spend on a much broader range skills. We've stated that assumption, now we are discussing the rules to ensure it is a valid assumption.[/quote']

 

When D&D was busy setting its assumptions into all of fantasy gaming, it didn't have skills.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

When D&D was busy setting its assumptions into all of fantasy gaming' date=' it didn't have skills.[/quote']

 

"Back when I started adventuring all we had were non-weapon proficiencies, and we were happy to get those!"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

"Back when I started adventuring all we had were non-weapon proficiencies' date=' and we were happy to get those!"[/quote']

 

Non-weapon proficiencies? NON-WEAPON PROFICIENCIES!!?!?!

 

LUXURY

 

We felt blessed to receive a secondary skill if our DM had read that page of the DM Guide!

[Curufea]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

Non-weapon proficiencies? NON-WEAPON PROFICIENCIES!!?!?!

 

LUXURY

 

We felt blessed to receive a secondary skill if our DM had read that page of the DM Guide!

 

Secondary skills? WE were lucky to spend one session in 50 above ground! Every adventure was Dungeons!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

Secondary skills? WE were lucky to spend one session in 50 above ground! Every adventure was Dungeons!

 

Then your lack of secondary skills, nonweapon proficiences or skills wasn't much of an issue, was it?

[Curufea]

Re: WTF are you guys doing?

 

Then your lack of secondary skills' date=' nonweapon proficiences or skills wasn't much of an issue, was it?[/quote']

 

And we didn't have any of this "Rogue" melarky. You were a THIEF, damnit!

[Maur]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

or an ELF

[Old Man]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I thought all elves were thieves. And magic-users.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: FRPG Ideas from D&D that ain't necessarily so

 

I thought all elves were thieves.

 

Racist.